Ernalda to Vinga

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Well, there is some issue on whether Pamalt truly is the equivalent of Genert, or whether that is a God Learner interpretation made in the name of apparent symmetry and systematization.

Personally, I think that Pamalt is the equivalent to Tada in his actions and his bearing, but Tada got himself killed. Genert dismembered himself rather than be annihilated, which gives us the great hyena skin collection quest for the Desert Trackers.

Sandy Petersen's Gods War doesn't work on that premise, though.

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Makes you wonder, if things had been different, if we'd seen an Earth King with Storm, Rain and Sun Wives. Who knows.

Perhaps Genert would have been happy to be uncle to all these children of his sister-wife. Patrilineal descent isn't necessarily the Earth Kings' way.

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Perhaps Genert would have been happy to be uncle to all these children of his sister-wife. Patrilineal descent isn't necessarily the Earth Kings' way.

Absolutely possible. I was more hinting at the possibility that the current Gloranthan notions of masculinity and femininity are influenced by post-God War perspectives. Who knows.

[Akhôrahil]

On 2/18/2019 at 4:44 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

Well, there is some issue on whether Pamalt truly is the equivalent of Genert, or whether that is a God Learner interpretation made in the name of apparent symmetry and systematization.

Speaking of, I also wonder who named Pamaltela (in-game). Genertela is (I guess?) a Theyalan name, but who came up with the name Pamaltela? Orlanthi in Umathela? The God-Learners? 

[Joerg]

37 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Speaking of, I also wonder who named Pamaltela (in-game). Genertela is (I guess?) a Theyalan name, but who came up with the name Pamaltela? Orlanthi in Umathela? The God-Learners? 

The "-ela" ending could be from ancient Elemental or Celestial Court language, possibly Firespeech. "-ela" and "-os" are used by the Westerners, but that's possibly after contact with Gennerela (as they originally called the lands to their north-east, and those to the south-east they called Bamatela), or inherited from their goddess mothers.

[Sir_Godspeed]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

The "-ela" ending could be from ancient Elemental or Celestial Court language, possibly Firespeech. "-ela" and "-os" are used by the Westerners, but that's possibly after contact with Gennerela (as they originally called the lands to their north-east, and those to the south-east they called Bamatela), or inherited from their goddess mothers.

It's interesting, because both Pelorian, Western and Theyalans seem to use these sets of names (or use the same roots) - but the Vithelans and Pamaltelans seem to have entirely different terminologies (at least according to Revealed Mythologies), which seems to challenge the notion of a Celestial Court origin. Or not, I don't know.

Glorantha isn't developed with the same kind of linguistic rigour as Middle-Earth (few, if any universes are), so there's a danger of reading too much into linguistic similarities or dissimilarities.

[Julian Lord]

26 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Glorantha isn't developed with the same kind of linguistic rigour as Middle-Earth (few, if any universes are), so there's a danger of reading too much into linguistic similarities or dissimilarities.

That is very much the case.

In my view, the only source making any serious attempt at it is the Entekosiad.

Nevertheless, given that the -ela ending is found in Pamaltela as well, I'd suspect a Green Age origin for it.

[Sir_Godspeed]

5 minutes ago, Julian Lord said:

Nevertheless, given that the -ela ending is found in Pamaltela as well, I'd suspect a Green Age origin for it.

Not natively, I think. It seems to be a name given to it by outsider, such as Western and possibly Theyalan explorers. It's possible that Fonritan and such have adopted the name later on though, but I don't think the Doraddi ever use such a term.

Personally, I suspect it's an attempt by either possibly Storm Age Westerners - or First or Second Age Westerners to create a "antipode" to Genertela and Genert. I could be wrong, of course.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[soltakss]

On 2/14/2019 at 1:08 PM, Akhôrahil said:

The reason Earth is primarily associated with goddesses these days is because Genert went and got himself killed.

And he had a lot of wives, daughters and granddaughters, who only had one husband/father/grandfather.

[soltakss]

On 2/18/2019 at 3:44 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

Well, there is some issue on whether Pamalt truly is the equivalent of Genert, or whether that is a God Learner interpretation made in the name of apparent symmetry and systematization.

Is there?

I understood that Pamaltela was largely unaffected by the Chaos that covers Genertela because Pamalt survived and Genert died. Pamalt is a Greater God, like Orlanth and the like.

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Is there?

I understood that Pamaltela was largely unaffected by the Chaos that covers Genertela because Pamalt survived and Genert died. Pamalt is a Greater God, like Orlanth and the like.

The issue is that Genert is frequently shown as "the father of theism", or said to have conducted the first sacrificial rite. His former area, Central Genertela, is subsequently also the stronghold of theism in Glorantha - ie. Theyalans, Pelorians and Pentans. He also said to be the incarnation of the male earth, the Earth God, the Lord of the Northern Continent, etc. "Gods" and "theism" kind of go hand in hand. He seems to be, at least from fairly early on in the First Age, to be implicated into the various Gods Age histories of the Theyalans and Pelorians as well, as a tragic figure and something paradisical lost. It's possible that this happened through interaction with Praxian allies or mercenaries, or whether these stories remained from Vingkotling/Heortling and Solar Empire/Hyaloring-Gamatae pre-Dawn/Grey Age memories. I don't know.

Then we have Pamalt. We are often told that Pamalt is a god. That he is an Earth God. That he is the Lord of the Southern Continent, a son of Gata, etc. But, well... That's usually written in that semi-omniscient tone we usually get with God Learner-influenced lore. I think it is worth considering that the God Learners, or perhaps First Age Malkioni, were taking their understanding of Genert and essentially applying it to Pamalt because, well, it made sense, didn't it? Problem is, I'm not really sure if they ever spoke with the Doraddi, who claim to know Pamalt the best and most completely (and who have contact with the Agi, the original Immortal's made by members of the Doraddi Pantheon).

I know this is another one of those "Yelm is a synthetic deity/the Lightbringer Quest is a later reinvention of the Lifebringer Quest/The different mythologies don't actually fit the monomyth because the monomyth is a Frankenstein's monster"-type issue, but I think it's a bit fun to poke around and question things.

The Doraddi, from what I can see, do not really draw a crystal-clear division between theism and shamanism, nor do they see Pamalt as primarily an elemental deity (they seem to emphasise his organizational abilities first and foremost), and so forth. Some of this might be based on outdated material (Revealed Mythologies), some of it might be due to how the different cultures are textually emphasises or represented (Theyalan and Praxian cultures also mix shamanism and theism in somewhat muddy ways - game rules notwithstanding), and the Orlanthi also do often emphasise Orlanth's leadership over his elemental nature. So it might be a matter of perspective.

Still - the best equivalent in the RW I can think of is this: when the Han Dynasty Chinese became aware of the Roman Empire, they sent some expeditions that (probably) reached Syria or possibly Asia Minor. The Han then constructed an idea of the Roman Empire as a kind of "antipodal", or mirror-image of the Han Empire on the opposite side of the world, and even named it "Daqin" (Great Qin) after the Chinese Qin Dynasty. The point is there that the Chinese were less concerned with factual reports, necessarily, and more about projecting their own political and cosmological ideas onto this distant area. What I am saying is that I suspect someone from Genertela did the same to Pamaltela. That being said - they might be right. 

Edited February 22, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[Sir_Godspeed]

I understand if some of the mods want this split off, if the conversation continues.

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The issue is that Genert is frequently shown as "the father of theism", or said to have conducted the first sacrificial rite.

That's pretty funny in light of him being painted as a Great Spirit during the "strictly separate Otherworlds" dogma. His continent is the cradle of theism, but at least for a long while Greg thought that Genert himself was a spirit entity, as was most of his Garden.

When challenged about the presence of so many great spirits in theist territory (Genert, SurenSlib, the Hykimi of the Greatwood), Greg replied that the collision of worlds (or possibly Otherworlds) that led to Glorantha started with the contact between the Theist and the Animist world.

 

7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

His former area, Central Genertela, is subsequently also the stronghold of theism in Glorantha - ie. Theyalans, Pelorians and Pentans.

Pentans and Praxians practice a mix of theism and animism.

The core theist populations are all west of Genert's Wastes (that used to be his Garden), until you come to the Hykimi anomaly adjacemt to the Malkioni colonies.

The Lightbringer Missionaries did convert a good number of previously animist cultures to their brand of theism, though.

 

7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

He also said to be the incarnation of the male earth, the Earth God, the Lord of the Northern Continent, etc.

Genert is the Earth King among immensely powerful primal entities. That needn't mean that he was a theist deity.

7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

"Gods" and "theism" kind of go hand in hand. He seems to be, at least from fairly early on in the First Age, to be implicated into the various Gods Age histories of the Theyalans and Pelorians as well, as a tragic figure and something paradisical lost. It's possible that this happened through interaction with Praxian allies or mercenaries, or whether these stories remained from Vingkotling/Heortling and Solar Empire/Hyaloring-Gamatae pre-Dawn/Grey Age memories. I don't know.

Genert and his avatar Tada figure in the early stories of the Vingkotlings. The On Jorri tribe of VIngkot's mother is fairly enigmatic, but it appears to come from outer Saird, which was adjacent to both drowned Dara Happa and semi-drowned Genert's Garden, which leaves at least room for speculation that they had some relation to the Earth King.

In Peloria, Genert becomes obscured by the Earth Walkers who are associated with Lodril, although Gerendetho is a bit of a mountain god and a lot of an earth god. All of these are theist entities, however.

In the lands of the Downland Migration of the Durevings, the Earth King doesn't seem to play much of a role, or gets displaced by the Storm King early on. I am pretty certain that one of the three or four "Bad Men" of Esrolian myth is a cognate of Genert.

 

7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Then we have Pamalt. We are often told that Pamalt is a god. That he is an Earth God. That he is the Lord of the Southern Continent, a son of Gata, etc. But, well... That's usually written in that semi-omniscient tone we usually get with God Learner-influenced lore. I think it is worth considering that the God Learners, or perhaps First Age Malkioni, were taking their understanding of Genert and essentially applying it to Pamalt because, well, it made sense, didn't it? Problem is, I'm not really sure if they ever spoke with the Doraddi, who claim to know Pamalt the best and most completely (and who have contact with the Agi, the original Immortal's made by members of the Doraddi Pantheon).

The God Learner Six Legged Empire did conquer significant parts of the Jolar veldt with its Doraddi population before their horses faltered and their conquest went wrong. But then, whatever magical riches they thought they would find down south failed to materialize, too, unlike conquests such as Eest (Teshnos) or Kralorela. 

Coming as conquerors and know-it-alls, the question remains how well they learned about the role of Pamalt. I mean, how much cultural anthropology was handed down from the companions of Cortez and Pizzarro?

 

Repeating myself, personally I see Pamalt on the same level as Tada - the demigod, near-human mover and shaker who raised mountains and created rules and traditions who rose to be head of the pantheon through his deeds.

7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I know this is another one of those "Yelm is a synthetic deity/the Lightbringer Quest is a later reinvention of the Lifebringer Quest/The different mythologies don't actually fit the monomyth because the monomyth is a Frankenstein's monster"-type issue, but I think it's a bit fun to poke around and question things.

Sure. Still, the monomyth amalgamation has significant magical power that may trump original truths.

7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The Doraddi, from what I can see, do not really draw a crystal-clear division between theism and shamanism, nor do they see Pamalt as primarily an elemental deity (they seem to emphasise his organizational abilities first and foremost), and so forth. Some of this might be based on outdated material (Revealed Mythologies), some of it might be due to how the different cultures are textually emphasises or represented (Theyalan and Praxian cultures also mix shamanism and theism in somewhat muddy ways - game rules notwithstanding), and the Orlanthi also do often emphasise Orlanth's leadership over his elemental nature. So it might be a matter of perspective.

No, I think that this view of Pamalt is the correct one. Pamalt becomes Earth King through marriage, not through birthright. In the end, he might be able to draw on the powers of the land in a way no entity other than Genert manages, but this is acquired power, not the power of his original identity.

7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Still - the best equivalent in the RW I can think of is this: when the Han Dynasty Chinese became aware of the Roman Empire, they sent some expeditions that (probably) reached Syria or possibly Asia Minor. The Han then constructed an idea of the Roman Empire as a kind of "antipodal", or mirror-image of the Han Empire on the opposite side of the world, and even named it "Daqin" (Great Qin) after the Chinese Qin Dynasty. The point is there that the Chinese were less concerned with factual reports, necessarily, and more about projecting their own political and cosmological ideas onto this distant area. What I am saying is that I suspect someone from Genertela did the same to Pamaltela. That being said - they might be right.