Do you need to know Sorcery techniques or Runes to cast the Open Seas spell?

[Brootse]

Formerly it wasn't that difficult for a Dormal initiate (or anyone else) to learn the spell, but now if I've understood the rules correctly, you need to know Sorcery techniques and Runes to cast it. Are the command technique and the Water rune taught to all Dormal initiates, or does every ship need a professional philosopher?

[Joerg]

I doubt that that is the intention behind the ritual spell being described as sorcery.

In the HQ1 rules, Open Seas was sorcerous in nature, but a common magic spell that could be learned by just about anyone without a magical purity taboo. RQ3 had it as ritual magic, no magic system specified, which worked similarly.

[Jeff]

There are a few sorcery spells that are "self-contained". You learn the spell alone, without learning the fundamental techniques. Open Seas is one of those. The downside is that such knowledge does not give you any understanding of any other spells, techniques, or anything else. Malkioni will sneer at you for including all sorts of unnecessary superstitious gobbly-gook,  when actually a simple use of Water and Command contains what is necessary, once you understand the spell. 

[Jeff]

17 minutes ago, Jeff said:

There are a few sorcery spells that are "self-contained". You learn the spell alone, without learning the fundamental techniques. Open Seas is one of those. The downside is that such knowledge does not give you any understanding of any other spells, techniques, or anything else. Malkioni will sneer at you for including all sorts of unnecessary superstitious gobbly-gook,  when actually a simple use of Water and Command contains what is necessary, once you understand the spell. 

It does mean that initiates of many popular cults can't Open the seas - Orlanth, Ernalda, etc. But LM, Issaries, and even CA are likely overrepresented within the Dormal community.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

There are a few sorcery spells that are "self-contained". You learn the spell alone, without learning the fundamental techniques. Open Seas is one of those. The downside is that such knowledge does not give you any understanding of any other spells, techniques, or anything else.

I am curious about "a few". Would such self-contained spells be something like guild secrets?

They would be quite rigid in application as there is no way to manipulate the effects of the spell by non-sorcerers, and they might negatively affect the ability to use general manipulation in terms of Free INT for all the extraneous info replacing the fundamental techniques or rune mastery. Still, using such magic might be preferable to consorting with spirits or deities to receive personal magic in orthodox Malkioni society outside of the zzabur caste.

Such spells might even give Rokari nobility the semblance of the original "man-of-all" concept, which would be appreciated in the provinces outside of Tanisor and Rindland.

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Malkioni will sneer at you for including all sorts of unnecessary superstitious gobbly-gook,  when actually a simple use of Water and Command contains what is necessary, once you understand the spell. 

Only zzaburi and men-of-all (or trainees for these) are in the position to sneer as none of the other Malkioni are expected to understand sorcery. When displaying such understanding might be sufficient grounds for persecution of breaking caste laws, most Malkioni would probably refrain from opinionating before any zzaburi (or man-of-all) has spoken to that extent.

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

It does mean that initiates of many popular cults can't Open the seas - Orlanth, Ernalda, etc. But LM, Issaries, and even CA are likely overrepresented within the Dormal community.

Why does it mean that? Do those cults forbid sorcery - and does that mean that a LM sorceror cannot also be an Orlanth initiate?

[Jeff]

7 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Why does it mean that? Do those cults forbid sorcery - and does that mean that a LM sorceror cannot also be an Orlanth initiate?

It means a LM sorcerer needs to worship Orlanth as an associated cult, which is of course permitted. 

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

It means a LM sorcerer needs to worship Orlanth as an associated cult, which is of course permitted. 

I can't find anything about it in the main rulebook, other than the general "In many cults, initiates may not become shamans or sorcerers". Presumably the prohibition on Sorcery is something detailed in the G&G book. In any case, I'd have interpreted "becoming a sorcerer" as "learning techniques", learning a self-contained spell would not have triggered as "becoming a sorcerer" in my mind.

Edited March 15, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Brootse]

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

There are a few sorcery spells that are "self-contained". You learn the spell alone, without learning the fundamental techniques. Open Seas is one of those. The downside is that such knowledge does not give you any understanding of any other spells, techniques, or anything else. Malkioni will sneer at you for including all sorts of unnecessary superstitious gobbly-gook,  when actually a simple use of Water and Command contains what is necessary, once you understand the spell. 

 

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

It does mean that initiates of many popular cults can't Open the seas - Orlanth, Ernalda, etc. But LM, Issaries, and even CA are likely overrepresented within the Dormal community.

Thanks! A few follow-up questions:

Are all Sorcery spells with the 'ritual' tag "self-contained"? These would be Bind Elemental, Bind Spirit, Magic Point Enchantment, Open Seas, and Summon (species).

How many magic points does it take to cast self-contained spells when you don't know any of the techniques or Runes involved? 8 times the minimum mps perhaps? (ie. double the amount where you have only secondary knowledge)?

On page 275 in the Roleplaying in Glorantha it says that "In many cults, initiates may not become shamans or sorcerers." LM and CA have non-standard initiate requirements, but Issaries has the standard one. Would it be possible to edit the upcoming Gods of Glorantha book to clearly mention which cults allow their members to learn Sorcery?

Is the old Shapechange (Species) to (Species) coming back in some later book?

e: Are Ygg worshippers allowed to Open Seas?

ee: Is the Open Seas ritual taught only to Dormal initiates, or can lay members learn it too?

Edited March 15, 2019 by Brootse

[Brootse]

1 minute ago, PhilHibbs said:

I can't find anything about it in the main rulebook, other than the general "In many cults, initiates may not become shamans or sorcerers". Presumably the prohibition on Sorcery is something detailed in the G&G book.

hah, ninjaed

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Brootse said:

 

Thanks! A few follow-up questions:

Are all Sorcery spells with the 'ritual' tag "self-contained"? These would be Bind Elemental, Bind Spirit, Magic Point Enchantment, Open Seas, and Summon (species).

How many magic points does it take to cast self-contained spells when you don't know any of the techniques or Runes involved? 8 times the minimum mps perhaps? (ie. double the amount where you have only secondary knowledge)?

On page 275 in the Roleplaying in Glorantha it says that "In many cults, initiates may not become shamans or sorcerers." LM and CA have non-standard initiate requirements, but Issaries has the standard one. Would it be possible to edit the upcoming Gods of Glorantha book to clearly mention which cults allow their members to learn Sorcery?

Is the old Shapechange (Species) to (Species) coming back in some later book?

e: Are Ygg worshippers allowed to Open Seas?

ee: Is the Open Seas ritual taught only to Dormal initiates, or can lay members learn it too?

None of the spells in the core book are presented as self contained, as Dormal is not one of the cults presented in the core book.

The Gods and Goddesses book has so much information and new content in it that it will no doubt end many of the current debates and start a new generation of forum debates.

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

None of the spells in the core book are presented as self contained, as Dormal is not one of the cults presented in the core book.

So there will be another version of Open Seas presented in the Dormal cult, in addition to the normal technique-and-rune version in the core rules?

[metcalph]

8 hours ago, Brootse said:

Is the old Shapechange (Species) to (Species) coming back in some later book?

Shapechanging is known in Peloria although I've yet to discern the mythic rational for it.

As for sorcerous shape-changing, I prefer to import the Golden Ass as a Grimoire, make its founder a Ralian wizard who wanted to become a bird but - according to his enemies - transformed himself into a Donkey.