Wergild amongst Orlanthi peole

[DrGoth]

20 hours ago, Bohemond said:

Perhaps not 'forced to adhere'--no one can make you do anything. But possibly it makes your outlawry visible to all Orlanthi. 

I'd go with what Jeff said about Ban.

[Ynneadwraith]

On 6/23/2023 at 12:03 PM, DrGoth said:

I'd be a little surprised if this was possible.  Clans that were feuding forced to adhere to outlawry proclaimed by the other clan? I think this makes it all a little too organsied.

Old thread, but think of it less in terms of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. That's quite an advanced set of thinking that people generally need to be persuaded to believe (that's why there's a truism about it). The default thinking is 'the enemy of my enemy is a liability so bad not even they would tolerate them'.

It's something that tarnishes your character. A black mark on your record.

Even if the outlaw was kicked out of a clan/tribe you're feuding with, do you really want to get in bed with someone who has 'TROUBLEMAKER' tattooed on their forehead?

Think of it functioning in the same was as the sex offenders register and you're closer to how pre-modern people thought about outlawry (or, perhaps a better analogy, a Facebook Group warning people by sharing the names of confirmed paedophiles).

Of course, the analogy tends to break down a little when you consider 'popular' outlaws like Robin Hood or the Scarlett Pimpernel. But the 'stain on one's character' bit is good.

[Akhôrahil]

16 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

It's something that tarnishes your character. A black mark on your record.

I don’t think this is necessarily true - it will be all about context. If you take bloody revenge on someone and your chief has to hand out a three-year outlawry for political reasons, which you spend looting the Rubble and return wealthier than you were, I don’t imagine your stint with outlawry will be held against you, and you will have earned reputation along the way.

[Ynneadwraith]

52 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I don’t think this is necessarily true - it will be all about context. If you take bloody revenge on someone and your chief has to hand out a three-year outlawry for political reasons, which you spend looting the Rubble and return wealthier than you were, I don’t imagine your stint with outlawry will be held against you, and you will have earned reputation along the way.

Perhaps, though that context would be available to anyone who actually knows the situation. 'It's not really their fault, the ring had no choice. We don't really agree with it, but know why it had to happen'.

However, to anyone who doesn't know you or your situation would just see that you did something greivous enough that the people who knew you best decided to revoke all connection to you.

As you say though, it can be more nuanced. It matters who's doing the outlawing, and what for. But in the absence of the incredibly pervasive and effective communication systems we have today, that information is often not readily available. Is it actually worth it to delve into the how and why to work out whether you agree for the 2% (or even 10-15%) of wrongly convicted outlaws? Bearing in mind the outlaw could lie about their circumstances (and would be incentivesed to do so).

Not telling anyone how to play their Glorantha, mind. If you want a more modern attitude to 'ex cons' then there's nothing stopping anyone, and that doesn't make it worse. Just trying to delve into one of the interesting ways pre-modern societal norms differ from those of today (although in truth they don't differ anywhere near as much as you'd hope, otherwise ex-cons wouldn't have so much trouble finding work ..).

[Ynneadwraith]

On the positive side for our wrongly convicted outlaw, the mythic parallel of Orlanth screwing up and making right would play into their concepts of redemption. At least Orlanthi probably have a concept that outlawry can be redeemed.

[mfbrandi]

13 minutes ago, Ynneadwraith said:

At least Orlanthi probably have a concept that outlawry can be redeemed.

Imagine a fake-tanned Orlanth with Yinkin perched on his head whining, “I brought back the sun and they indicted me.”

On the other hand, it has been argued that Danfive Xaron stands for Orlanth — so maybe the Lunars think the Orlanthi can be redeemed.

[Ynneadwraith]

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

“I brought back the sun and they indicted me.”

Now that's an image! 😂

Apropos of something only slightly related, I use the example of Trump when talking about demographics in Sparta. Everyone tends to picture Sparta as being populated entirely by Spartiates and forget about the helots (and all the other bastard classes in-between).

If anyone here today was alive in the days of Sparta, you wouldn't be a spartiate, you'd be one of the people the spartiates abused. Trump, Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk would be spartiates. Now imagine that bunch with the ability to murder anyone they liked who was out after dark without any social or legal repercussions.

Sparta was not a good societal example, and people should stop holding it up as one.

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

Is it actually worth it to delve into the how and why to work out whether you agree for the 2% (or even 10-15%) of wrongly convicted outlaws?

Under the Lunar occupation, I imagine this number would have been very, very high, way above 50%.

[Ynneadwraith]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Under the Lunar occupation, I imagine this number would have been very, very high, way above 50%.

...so the rebels would have you believe 😉

[mfbrandi]

5 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

Sparta was not a good societal example, and people should stop holding it up as one.

Do people do that? (People to the left of Frank Miller, I mean.)

[Ynneadwraith]

12 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Do people do that? (People to the left of Frank Miller, I mean.)

I think there's a regrettable number of people to the right of Frank Miller...