No Love for Prince Valiant?

[seneschal]

Lots of Pendragon threads but not one for heroic Val?  He had his own lusciously illustrated, long-running newspaper strip, a Hollywood Technicolor outing and a Saturday morning cartoon.  He undertook more quests than Lancelot, discovered America before Columbus, found, married and stayed true to his fetching princess, and raised his kids to be epic heroes, all the while continuing his own adventures.   Lance, Conan, He-Man and Fafhrd should be so lucky!

Edited April 16, 2019 by seneschal

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, seneschal said:

Lots of Pendragon threads but not one for heroic Val?  He had his own lusciously illustrated, long-running newspaper strip, a Hollywood Technicolor outing and a Saturday morning cartoon.  He undertook more quests than Lancelot, discovered America before Columbus, found, married and stayed true to his fetching princess, and raised his kids to be epic heroes, all the while continuing his own adventures.   Lance, Conan, He-Man and Fafhrd should be so lucky!

I'm a fan of Val. I even used him in my Pendragon game long before we played PV. Even last session when my group got caught in a storm off the coast of Spain I thought about Vals trip to the New World. There is a lot of good in the Prince Valiant RPG. 

I think the reason why you don't see as much here on PV is that it's simple nature and mechanics (a design goal), combined with Foster's established timeline, leaves less to discuss. Although I could see a lot of adventures for PV being compatible with KAP and and vice versa. It wouldn't be tough to stat up an adventure for both game systems, especially now that KAP glory scale is closers to PVs. 

 

 

[Hzark10]

By all means, if you have a question or comment regarding Prince Valiant, feel free to post. 

On 4/16/2019 at 5:53 PM, Atgxtg said:

I think the reason why you don't see as much here on PV is that it's simple nature and mechanics (a design goal), combined with Foster's established timeline, leaves less to discuss.

Atgxtg is very active, and many of us also had a hand in the new version of PV, so will chime in. But as Atgxtg said, the way the game is set up and played, there is less to discuss, but don't feel bad if you don't understand something, or are confused. Ask, away. 

[Atgxtg]

1 minute ago, Hzark10 said:

By all means, if you have a question or comment regarding Prince Valiant, feel free to post. 

Atgxtg is very active,

Guilty as charged.

1 minute ago, Hzark10 said:

and many of us also had a hand in the new version of PV, so will chime in. But as Atgxtg said, the way the game is set up and played, there is less to discuss, but don't feel bad if you don't understand something, or are confused. Ask, away. 

That's probably part of it.. The game is so simple and easy to grasp, that there is little to be confused about. Greg really did a great job of streamlining and simplifying an RPG down to something non-gamers could pick up in a game session, yet the game is still a full rich complete game. It was a minimalist RPG that was still more comprehensive and capable that most minimalist RPGs today,. And that was over 20 years ago. 

The other thing it has that probably cuts down on the PV chatter is that it covers the same ground as Pendragon, and anyone who like PV will probably love Pendragon. Most of my players would rather play a Pendragon Campaign than a Prince Valiant Campaign. I've ported PV adventures over to KAP and vice versa though. Maybe a character conversion sheet from one to the other would help. A lot of adventures could be statted to work for both games. 

 

 

[Hzark10]

2 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

The other thing it has that probably cuts down on the PV chatter is that it covers the same ground as Pendragon, and anyone who like PV will probably love Pendragon. Most of my players would rather play a Pendragon Campaign than a Prince Valiant Campaign. I've ported PV adventures over to KAP and vice versa though. Maybe a character conversion sheet from one to the other would help. A lot of adventures could be statted to work for both games. 

 

Yes and no.  The great thing about Prince Valiant is that it shows a campaign can be created without the use of the Great Pendragon Campaign (GPC).  Valiant goes to America and elsewhere, so is not tied to Arthur by any means.  Another book, "Book of Sires" is set up to give lots of background to stories in areas that are friendly to Ambrosius and Uther and eventually Arthur, but could be used to create your very own campaign using the information contained within that book.  Agree that a character conversion sheet would be awesome as well.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Hzark10 said:

Yes and no.  The great thing about Prince Valiant is that it shows a campaign can be created without the use of the Great Pendragon Campaign (GPC).  Valiant goes to America and elsewhere, so is not tied to Arthur by any means. 

It is set in Arthurian Brtian. It's a different take than the one Greg went with in KAP but they are similar enough for both to have an Arthurian setting. Yeah, Val travels all over, but that all fair game for KAP. Last session my PKs got caught in a strom at sea, and I was thinking a lot about Val's trip to America, and wished I had done the same to my PKs. 

1 hour ago, Hzark10 said:

Another book, "Book of Sires" is set up to give lots of background to stories in areas that are friendly to Ambrosius and Uther and eventually Arthur, but could be used to create your very own campaign using the information contained within that book.  Agree that a character conversion sheet would be awesome as well.

You're preaching to the choir. I started my current campaign in 410 AD, and SIRES will be an invaluable aid for establishing a timeline from 439-480. Now while most of the big events were available from the timeline in KAP5, Saxons!, Pagan Shore ,other supplements, the HRB, and other soruces, SIRES, much of the information is contradictory, and SIRES really helps in establishing an "official" version of things. 

I could do a conversion sheet. It wouldn't be all that hard. The only tough bit would be to account for the ultra high scores possible for experienced characters in KAP, but glory could help there. Naturally, as KAP tracks more stats a lot of stuff would need to be dropped or added in the conversion process, but the default scores would work there.

 

[Hzark10]

Yeah, the ultra high scores do kinda even out in PV.  And since there are only two, they would become somewhat identical.  Maybe we should put a little thought on how to differentiate the two systems.

[Atgxtg]

21 minutes ago, Hzark10 said:

Yeah, the ultra high scores do kinda even out in PV.  And since there are only two, they would become somewhat identical.  Maybe we should put a little thought on how to differentiate the two systems.

Here is a rough conversion to get the ball rolling.

Attributes: I was thinking that Brawn would cover STR, DEX, CON and SIZ with Presence covering APP. At a 3.5 ratio from KAP to PV, to make a PV3= a KAP 10.5 (rounded to 11), plus an extra 3 points for SIZ. Maybe modified for the description (so someone notes as being agile would get a bonus to DEX over the other stats). So: 1= 4,  2= 7, 3=11, 4= 14, 5=18, 6=21 with SIZ being  3 points higher, and all that capped by cultural limits, and modified by culture. 

Skills: could be on the same scale. AGILITY and DEXTERITY should probably influence the DEX stat too. 

Fame: In KAP5 Fame and Glory seem to be on the same scale, that wasn't quite the same in KAP4, but in KAP5 Glory seems to have gone up a bit. I'd also considering add 1 to the max for skill scores per 10,000 glory to reflect the higher skills possible in the advanced game plus the effect of Glory points in KAP. 

Traits: KAP traits would start at the base values modified by culture and religion. If a character has a trait in PV that equate to a KAP trait  or passion then it would equal a trait of 16 in Pendragon. A doubled trait wqould equal a value of 19 or 20 in Pendragon. 

 

I think that would cover most things and give us a starting point. Look at Val.s stats he looks okay, but as his combat skills all max out at 5 , which would be a 18, but a +4 for 47K glory would bring that to 22, which I think fits for a Round Table knight with 47,000 glory. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hzark10]

Remember that 1,000 Fame will give a character an increase of 1 to any skill, or to learn a new skill. In the basic game, that is all you can do with Fame. You cannot increase either Brawn or Presence.  In the optional rules, you can allow this to change, but the cost is 5,000.  

I would be tempted to change a couple of these two stats based on your original culture, but am open to discussion. 

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Hzark10 said:

Remember that 1,000 Fame will give a character an increase of 1 to any skill, or to learn a new skill. In the basic game, that is all you can do with Fame. You cannot increase either Brawn or Presence.  In the optional rules, you can allow this to change, but the cost is 5,000.  

Yeah, and it makes it a bit harder to stat up characters too. Not so much between PV and KAP but within PV depending on if a GM uses the optional rule or not. 

One interesting thing is that by converting and using the average of the KAP stats it actually takes about 9-12K glory to get a +1 to Brawn in PV,  but raising APP enough for a +1 would only require about 3000 Points so it average out to around 6-7.6K per +1. Presence is more useful that APP though.

Come to think of it, PV might be a good palce to look to try and find ways to make APP and ladies more significant in KAP. 

Quote

I would be tempted to change a couple of these two stats based on your original culture,

The only stat in KAP that correspond to Presence is PV is APP, although DEX could become the Dexterity and Agility skills in PV. I doubt culture would make much of a difference. Most PKs would probably covert over as Brawn  4/ Presence 2. Especially once you average out 3 or 4 (with DEX) attributes to get Brawn. 

Yes, Saxons are bigger and stronger by culture, but in play since PKs are spending points as they see fit they either compensate for their weaknesses or double down on their strengths, so I think the conversion process should handle that okay. For a test case  a Saxon PK with SIZ 20, DEX 10, STR 13, CON 12, APP 8 would probably come out as 4/2 based on APP and the average the other 4 (or even 3 if you make DEX skills) attributes.

Quote

but am open to discussion. 

Me too. It is a rough conversion. While it mostly works, I'm sure there will be cases that need to be fine tuned a bit here and there due to the differences between the games. Especially with very experienced characters. PV sort of caps things at 6 while KAP is more open ended. So someone with Sword 25 and Sword 35 would be very different in KAP, but both would have a 6 skill in PV -- unless we raised the 6 cap.

Maybe we could adapt the specific Brawn and Presence rules for skills? That way someone with a really high skill in one weapon could note it in their skill description Like Arms 2 (Excellent Swordsman) and get a bonus coin or two when applicable.

Or we could use a different conversion factor. Something like:

1= 3 (1-3)

2= 6 (4-8)

3= 11 (9-14)

4=18 (15-22)

5=27 (23-32)

6=38 (33-44)

This would push out the upper up of the stat and skill range, and allow easier conversion of KAP monsters, like so:

7= 51 (45-58)

8=66 (59-74)

9=83 (75-92)

10-102 (93-112)

 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Atgxtg

[Hzark10]

6 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

So someone with Sword 25 and Sword 35 would be very different in KAP, but both would have a 6 skill in PV -- unless we raised the 6 cap.

Speaking of which, let's look at those who have a 6 in their Personal Characteristics.  As you know, Brawn and Presence are the only two in PV.  

Brawn:  zero, nada, none.  Lancelot is only a 5, as is Boltor, the viking warrior.

Presence: Aleta, Prince Valiant's wife, Merlin, Queen Guenever, and Morgan Le Fey.  In KAP, Guenever is so beautiful, she triggers a supernatural test.  But, no where do we see Aleta, or Morgan having the same, so Presence is not a direct analogy for APP. It also is used for magic. That explains Merlin and Morgan.  

Now, creatures can and do have personal characteristics above 6.  

So, a conversion must take this into account. Skills are the main theme. Can they go above 6?

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Hzark10 said:

Speaking of which, let's look at those who have a 6 in their Personal Characteristics.  As you know, Brawn and Presence are the only two in PV.  

Brawn:  zero, nada, none.  Lancelot is only a 5, as is Boltor, the viking warrior.

Yes but a 6 is possible in chargen. But it does seem to be very rare.

2 hours ago, Hzark10 said:

Presence: Aleta, Prince Valiant's wife, Merlin, Queen Guenever, and Morgan Le Fey.  In KAP, Guenever is so beautiful, she triggers a supernatural test.  But, no where do we see Aleta, or Morgan having the same, so Presence is not a direct analogy for APP.

It's a close as we can get. And the Guievere/Ygrain effect doesn't really factor into this. They are the only two women who get that in KAP and are said to be the most beautiful women period. So therer is more going on there than just Presence 6.

2 hours ago, Hzark10 said:

It also is used for magic. That explains Merlin and Morgan.  

It's used for anything that isn't physical/Brawn. The problem with converting Presence is that KAP has no attribute to handle intelligence, or personal magnetism, or such. APP and some traits are all we have. If we had INT and POW the conversion would be easier, but as it stands all we really have to go on is APP, some traits (liek Prudent) and Awareness.

PV also makes Presence and mental abilities important like physical ones.  It's one of the stylistic differences between the two games, and a hurdle in conversion.

 

2 hours ago, Hzark10 said:

Now, creatures can and do have personal characteristics above 6.  

Yes, and that makes sense, too. Although I'm not sure about the Brawn 15 "Dragon" in conversion. But in KAP that Brawn would also include the "Dragon" fighting skills and natural armor. Plus the monster is several times the SIZ of Val's horse, so probably SIZ 50+. I'd probably use the LArge Cocodile from RQ3 for a baseline. SIZ 50, DEX 7, STR 50, CON 29, Armor 24, Damage 10d6, Move 6, Bite 10, Tail 6. 

2 hours ago, Hzark10 said:

So, a conversion must take this into account. Skills are the main theme. Can they go above 6?

Probably not. No one in the PV game has a value above 6. And Gawain only has a 5 in Arms. So it look like my second scale should probably apply. 

 

One thing we have to accept is that due to the differences between the games any conversion system is only going to take up so far, and after a point the GM is just going to have to make some judgment calls. Thats true with any conversion, but especially true with one RPG based half of it's die rolls around an attribute that the other lacks.

[TrippyHippy]

I backed Prince Valiant, as much as anything, because I regard it as a seminal RPG that influenced a lot of future game designs and I collect classic games like that. It's also a beautiful book which is well written. 

I've not played it though. 

I did intend to this year, when I take a break from running the Masks of Nyarlathotep campaign and playing in a short Shadow of the Demon Lord campaign. So maybe in the next month or two (although I have a list of games I want to run/play in).

My analysis of Prince Valiant, certainly compared to King Arthur Pendragon, is that it's more of a one shot, pick up and play game. It has simpler mechanics and is easier to run off the cuff, while I don't think it really sets itself up for long term, multi-generational campaigns like KAP does. The comic strip elements are also novel, and again I haven't really read them, but I like the appeal of running slightly more gonzo, unhistorical Aurthorian adventures in the mode of Conan or He-Man ("By the Power of the Grail!"). 

I would ask, how do people flip their coins? All at once, or individually one after another?

 

. 

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by TrippyHippy

[Atgxtg]

17 hours ago, TrippyHippy said:

I backed Prince Valiant, as much as anything, because I regard it as a seminal RPG that influenced a lot of future game designs and I collect classic games like that. It's also a beautiful book which is well written. 

I've not played it though.

I have both played it and ran it and it's fast, easy and fun.

17 hours ago, TrippyHippy said:

I dod intend to this year, when I take a break from running the Masks of Nyarlathotep campaign and playing in a short Shadow of the Demon Lord campaign. So maybe in the next month or two (although I have a list of games I want to run/play in).

The nice bit is that it doesn't take much to get going. In a lot of ways it's simplicity helps the GM do more with it. For example it's much easier to write up an NPC on the fly. 

17 hours ago, TrippyHippy said:

My analysis of Prince Valiant, certainly compared to King Arthur Pendragon, is that it's more of a one shot, pick up and play game. It has simpler mechanics and is easier to run off the cuff, while I don't think it really sets itself up for long term, multi-generational campaigns like KAP does. The comic strip elements are also novel, and again I haven't really read them, but I like the appeal of running slightly more gonzo, unhistorical Aurthorian adventures in the mode of Conan or He-Man ("By the Power of the Grail!"). 

It hold up much better in for campaign play than you might think. Keep in mind that in many ways the Prince Valiant comic was sort of the template for the Pendragon RPG. I ran a campaign for months that only ended because of a scheduling conflict with work. The long term elements play out well. The only real things to worry about are players maxing out thier arms skill early, and is the advance rule for allowing fame to boost attributes.  But the former sort of balances itself out in other ways, and the latter is slow and comes at the expense of skills. 

Read the strips if you can. The style is less gonzo/Conan and more 40's movie. That is stylistically the way it is drawn and written is much like a good Hollywood adventure movie. The way the characters are drawn is reminiscence of the lighting and close up shots of old movies, and  the morality is much more Mid 20th century than Medieval. If anything PV is probably more down to earth and less gonzo than Pendragon. There isn't a much magic and true monsters are rare. In most cases such things turn out to be superstition and tricks. The monstrous breathing dragon that scares everyone off, usually turns out to be a fake being used to manipulate and trick people. Occasionally, however, there is some substance to the menace. 

17 hours ago, TrippyHippy said:

I would ask, how do people flip their coins? All at once, or individually one after another?

All at once, typically in cupped hands, or in a dice cup if one is available (plastic/Styrofoam cups work too). I think my biggest gripe with PV is that coins have a greater tenancy to roll onto the floor, or into hard to reach places than dice.  Something like those tiny  of those plastic boxes with a lid that you can get 3 for $1 at a dollar store would be ideal. 

 

[Hzark10]

20 hours ago, TrippyHippy said:

I would ask, how do people flip their coins? All at once, or individually one after another?

to be honest, because coins are one item I don't always have, I used dice.  Simply go odd-even and you have the same idea.

[Atgxtg]

Yup, and it even works well with 4dF dice from Fudge/Fate.

[ThornPlutonius]

2 hours ago, Hzark10 said:

to be honest, because coins are one item I don't always have, I used dice.  Simply go odd-even and you have the same idea.

Ubiquity dice can be substituted for coins, too.  They are geared for binary odd/even rolls.  Odd = failure.  Even = success.  The official Ubiquity dice are further designed to statistically represent the rolls of many dice with few actual dice. 

 

Edited April 22, 2019 by ThornPlutonius
Clarification