Toward a Better Kralorela

[Ali the Helering]

6 hours ago, davecake said:

 

And this  is where you seem to really explicitly be overstretching, because you are explicitly ignoring the bits that don't fit your thesis. No, the Lunars did not come around during the Windstop and destroy housing, destroy what little food producing facilities there are, and gratuitously rape or murdere everyone they could find. You are just making that up, to stretch a failing argument. The Empires actions are documented in detail in Eleven Lights etc, and they are very different - they offer food to the starving, they try as they can to recruit to the Lunar cause but by offering them hope, they generally allow the Orlanthi to gather in towns and villages, they did sometimes take food - because they hadn't planned it and were left largely short of food as well. 

Orlanth is Dead told a rather different tale, the food supplies being dependent on political and religious submission. 

In RW terms the Dara Happan tradition is very close to Assyrian or Chin state terrorism. 

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, davecake said:

Comes across because the Kralorelans have had thousands of years of interpreting these early myths through their lens of wanting to make everything about dragons, and the East Isles have had thousands of years of interpreting these early myths through a more orthodox mysticism centric framework. They are, however, the same mythic entities. The Orlanthi Emperor myths come across as very different aspects of Yelm too, and Worlath is different to Orlanthi, and so on. Both are so distant from modern humanity the differences seem of practical importance only to advanced mystics - who would probably mostly argue that they were only artifacts of imperfect human perception anyway. 

So there is no mythic differene between Yelm the Celestial Emperor and Murharzarm the mortal emperor? No qualitative difference between Green Age Aether and Golden Age Yelm? Yes, each of these is an expression of the Fire Rune, and of Mastery. But the degrees differ.

Does Aether acknowledge the Underworld Sky? Or the dark Underworld? Vith does.

Shargash doesn't make sense as a son of Yelm. He would make sense as a son of Vith.

 

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Aren't we, in several cases here, literally talking about the same entities? 

Yelm Brightface is not a Green Age entity. And identity of deities goes only so far, and may be situational.

Shargash and Jagrekriand map on one another quite well. Tolat does share the same celestial body, and in all likelihood most of the Storm Age and Greater Darkness myths that aren't centered on the Green City alone. But then Shadzor and Zorak Zoran are indistinguishable at the Hill of Gold. And when we look at Balumbasta as the owner of the Red Planet and responsible for its Godtime activities, how much are we looking at Lodril? How much at any of the aforementioned? And what's the deal with Vorthan?

 

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Not in the least. With Vith etc, you are arguing directly that equivalencies we are told are widely known and accepted and there is significant evidence for, aren't really true, based on what I think are fairly disagreements about the nature of Gloranthan divine entities.

Vith and Pelorian/Theyalan Aether are quite hard to reconcile. The bright side of Vith and Yelm have much in common, but then we have HeenMaround and Govmeranen to fill those imperial sandals, unless we look at Murharzarm rather than Brightface.

 

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With the Angen the Green we are talking very deep speculation about an entity we know almost nothing about, and I'm just saying one of the approximately three things we know about him doesn't support your theories much. Sure, he could be an elf or an earth deity based entirely on the word 'Green', but given the dearth of elf or earth deities in the various mysticism stories, it doesn't seem like the best fitted speculation. 

But then my next best hit for "green" and "Gloranthan East" is Zaktirra:

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The gods of Vormain dwell in a gigantic palace of magic and jewels. Each has his special chambers. In a squat black turret set off from the palace, and hidden from view by a glaucous wall of magic lurks Zaktirra, intoning his monstrous dirges. When need arises, the other gods call Zaktirra from his lair and send him forth, to poison earth and sea.

Statues of Zaktirra show an emaciated man with green skin wearing fine robes covered with metal hooks. His face consists of a single huge eyeball.

With Osdero/Metsyla occupying an Antririus role by this time and their clear sky affiliation as Eagle Phoenix Emperor, I think a less Chthonian origin fits a little better.

There is of course still a prominent green body in the sky - the Dragon's Head, a fragment of Dogsalu.

 

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I can speculate with the best of them. But you have to weigh the arguments, and I still think this is weak - the coincidence of colours is one thing, but making a God of War a god of Peace is a stronger counter-argument. Plus we have no evidence anyone outside of Alkoth ever associates Tolat with any colour except Red. 

Blue, as in Zaranistangi Veldang, comes to mind, but that is a very secondary association. But then the name "Shargash" has the Pelorian word for "Red" in it, as much as his city has the Pelorian word for green in it.

Tolat is well known only after his re-birth in Hell, together with Veldara/Annilla.

 

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You have to imagine him unleashing Chaos on everyone in the Empire that isn't Lunar regularly, the way Sheng tries to turn the lives of everyone in the Empire that is not some form of Sun worshipper into a living hell. He does not. 

You are repeating anti-Sheng propaganda (however justified it may be upon his conduct during his attempts to consolidate his reign). Sheng goes against anybody who goes against his philosophy. He has a trust issue towards people from the farming culture. He doesn't hate pastoralist folk, as shown by his acceptance of the Beast Riders as (near?) co-equals to his horse rider followers.

 

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Again, you seeming to see things in a moral binary (as with Zzabur/Vadel), the Red Emperor does some awful things in the service of the state, but the majority of his citizens live relatively happy pleasant lives, and only experience the Imperial dark side if they try to rebel against imperial rule.

And you are describing Sheng as a moral (or rather amoral) absolute, buying the enemy propaganda completely.

No one claims that Sheng is a nice guy, but his conduct falls within parameters of the Jenarong dynasty emperors between Vuranostum's sons and Eusibus/Upon Hilltops (oops, that sounds like massacres against Manimati).

Sheng has a lot in common with Avanapdur, IMO. And with Arkat.

 

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Sheng  tries to grind the lives of the majority if its citizenry into a torturous half existence, as deliberate policy. 

The slaves of the Pentans are treated better than that. This is still the rage against the usurpers.

 

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Only because he had already convinced his core followers to live lives of harsh discipline and unflinching loyalty, even when ordered to commit atrocities, voluntarily, and having them rape and loot served his purposes. 

Denseb - measured justice from above.

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I think the rest of the Tripolis does not condone the periodic Alkoth initiated civil wars and unrest, but reluctantly accepts it as a periodic disaster. But it is notable that even the worst tendencies of the Shargashi are still less horrific than Sheng - the Shargashi do not seem to actually want to smash the Darjiin civilian population into the stone age that way Sheng does. 

If not for the Manimati hill forts, the Shargashi would have done worse than the stone age to the Darjiinians - their goal was total annihilation. Which is in accordance to Shargash's mythical role in the Greater Darkness, the agent of total annihilation. They failed, as they were forced to hide under the Dome (or in the Underworld - it isn't quite sure whether the Dome covered all of the Tripolis or just one city, and of only one, whether Raibanth or Yuthuppa).

 

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Every Ergeshi in Sun Dome County lives a life that would seem like a comparitive paradise to the life recorded for the civilians under Sheng in the Greya story. You get to live under a roof? Actually work in a farm and have enough regular food to still be a good healthy worker? Not deal with regular rape and murder squads? These literally are the things the freed Lunar populace are getting excited about in the story. Don't get me wrong, freedom is important. But Sheng denies them food and shelter, basically as much of Maslowes hierarchy as he can manage. 

Sounds like the Ergeshi enjoy the privileged life in a Gulag or a work camp. I doubt they enjoy half as much care as the swine grown for slaughter.

And the situation Greya and her contemporaries are facing is that of a refugee people harrassed on their flight by raiders. Pretty close to the Dresden fire bombings, except for the lack of the personal touch and systematic annihilaiton.

 

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I also think the Ergeshi are a lot happier than food trollkin, not being considered food for a start. Worker trollkin, you could make a case, but even that would be pushing it,

Food trollkin still are kin. Ergeshi are trash. Productive trash, but less valued than other lifestock, and way more frequently flogged.

Yes, before the Windstop, no Sun Domer from Vanntar will have contemplated eating Ergeshi. I don't think the Lunars could provide sufficient food deliveries during the Windstop, so their supposed allies/employers left Sun Dome County out in the cold, and their possible role in the battle of Aurochs Hills doesn't make a post-Windstop Marshal-plan any likelier.

 

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Well, not necessarily happy, but willing to make harsh decisions to survive. As Great Darkness survival stories go, it is about par for the course. 

Building the Dome was essentially a betrayal of all non-rice farmers (and of the rice-farming Manimati, too). The exodus from Nivorah needn't have preceded the closing of the Dome. The betrayal goes both ways.

And this may be pertinent to Sheng's willingness to sacrifice all those insignificant ones.

 

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Sure, because Sheng would have drastically reduced the population in both Empires,

while increasing the population of the sacred beasts. Yes, Sheng would value a horse's life higher than that of a farmer. Much like a Telmori will value his beast brother's life higher than that of any Sartarite or Wulfsland foe.

 

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and killed pretty much everyone who wasn't a solar nomad, led by harsh ascetic demigods. None of those remaining people are going to want to return to a rich, flourishing, diverse happy civilisation, having never experienced anything like it. Plus, if any of them did express the idea that maybe agricultural civilisation has its virtues, a harsh ascetic demigod will probably rape or torture them then stab them in the neck. Or a zolathi will offer them to the sacrificial fires while still alive or something. 

A full on culture revolution? I thought we wanted to cut down on unwanted China (or Indochina) parallels here.

In the end, Sheng's empire would have become a huge Vendref state. A lot less urban than earlier unless he tolerates those unworthies picking through mud that never will make good pasture.

 

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Empires tend to allow disastrous things at their periphery - the Lunars are no different. Few attempt to gut and lay waste to their own richest assets. But if it helps, sure, you can imagine Sheng as being equivalent to, eg the Belgian Congo only he regards most of Peloria and Kralorela as the Congo. Or treating Peloria like the Khmer Rouge treated Cambodia. Or like Stalin creating the Holodomor.

Pretty much, yes. Sheng is like Cortez or Pizarro. Like Attila or Timur Leng, and nameless rider leaders in earlier ages. He could have become a Mughal emperor of Peloria, overcoming the Chaos affliction of the previous empire through rigorous disciplines and punishments.

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None of this makes Sheng look like anything other than a monster, you are just sort of weakly claiming 'other Empires did terrible things' - well, yes, but rarely approaching the scale, enthusiasm, deliberateness, malice and cruelty that Sheng pursued as explicit policy.

When it comes to malice, I sincerely doubt that Tatius was any better than Sheng. With Sheng, it was personal - Tatius' spite and bile was ancestral, his most personal loss - his cousin Euglyptus - most likely was fed his last sugared eel by Tatius or an agent of his.

Enforced starvation by deprivation of the Sartarite herds, deprivation of their fertility magics - Tatius is driving the perfect depopulation strategy against occupied Sartar, and he would have enjoyed very much to extend that "favor" to the Fazzurite estates in Tarsh, rearranging the second and third letter in that country's name.

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Other Gloranthan historical Empires can rarely approach him on one aspect or the other, but none come close on all at once (eg Fonrit is also a cruel slave state, but it likes to keep everyone fed, and allows religious diversity, The Windstop is also a great famine and disaster, but not deliberate or extended. The Ergeshi are thralls, but allowed the normal comforts of civilisation if not freedom, and so on). 

Sorry, but you are saying that starving the Pelorian dry farmers to death was Sheng's primary purpose. I don't think so - and as far as the rice farmers are concerned, Sheng appears to have been quite happy to get his horse-feed and other food from these useless wetlands.

Sheng does allow ethnic and religious diversity - he has Beast Riders riding with him, ancient rivals and foes.

It isn't clear whether he gets support from the Huan-to during his conquest attempts in Kralorela, and whether his reign would turn the Huan-to against his lieutenants.

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Your case is weak. I have no idea why you want to rehabiliitate Sheng, when he is clearly portrayed as horrific for his acts in both Kralorela and Peloria, but it is extremely unconvincing. 

I am giving Sheng the same doubt that I am giving the Lunar Empire or Arkat, or Shargash. Yes, life under Shen would have been harsh, possibly puritanic and cruel. He is a solar emperor, after all. And a horse warlord, without the redeeming charm of Vuranostum.

But he is willing to impose imperial order. His order, decreed from above. Like the Lunar Way, he offers an egalitarian opportunity to rise in his ranks through mysticism. Harsh and extreme, but egalitarian and meritocratic.

I have no idea how benevolent the reign of Arkat was - only that he retreated from active politics after having overcome Nysalor. The Stygian Autarchy did quite well and was even beloved by its sun-worshiping inhabitants.

 

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And this  is where you seem to really explicitly be overstretching, because you are explicitly ignoring the bits that don't fit your thesis. No, the Lunars did not come around during the Windstop and destroy housing, destroy what little food producing facilities there are, and gratuitously rape or murder everyone they could find.

They don't have the logistics to do that. Tatius is pre-occupied with his new temple. And he will need sacrifices to keep it running. With the much increased range, this new temple will be hungry.

Sheng is not Lord Death On A Horse. He is closer to what Meriatan will look like in a decade or two.

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You are just making that up, to stretch a failing argument. The Empires actions are documented in detail in Eleven Lights etc, and they are very different - they offer food to the starving, they try as they can to recruit to the Lunar cause but by offering them hope, they generally allow the Orlanthi to gather in towns and villages, they did sometimes take food - because they hadn't planned it and were left largely short of food as well. 

Eleven Lights p.101-114 has all kinds of situations that have crucifications, troops looking out for Orlanth worshipers, theft of food and livestock. Yes, there is some food and healing for converts to the Seven Mothers. All the rest is destruction and death. Jaranil's Death on p.109 reads exactly like you describe Sheng's reign in Peloria, and the Moon Dogs on p.111 have the kill-on-sight order for everyone outside of their villages. This includes hunters.

Putting on my rebel hat, all the Lunars do is give a choice between treason or harm. The Orlanthi "are allowed to gather in towns and villages" - they are concentrated in towns and villages, and kept under supervision.

You are an apologetic spin doctor here. And yes, I am making a propaganda case against the Lunars, in order to point at the probability of some propaganda case against Sheng. People died in droves when he led his zealots and a huge number of allied but mostly independent tribes into Peloria. The Opili nation fought by Yanasdros and Orin of Tarsh are such a case, opportunists following Sheng, doing his work without subscribing to his creed. The Grazeland army in Windstop Esrolia behaves in a similar way.

 

[davecake]

53 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Orlanth is Dead told a rather different tale, the food supplies being dependent on political and religious submission. 

Maybe Orlanth is dead is assuming a Lunar quisling king like Kangharl? Or maybe the Red Cow have just done a much better job of laying in their own food stocks, and so have more leverage? To the Red Cow, the Lunars are mostly offering food to those willing to become lay members of the Seven Mothers, they definitely are using the crisis to proselytize - and it works to an extent. But they aren’t using it for political submission (members of 7M are still clan members). 

And, of course, we are comparing it to Sheng whose approach was to offer nothing, destroy or steal what little they had , so besides no food they also had no shelter and no fire. And still send rape and murder squads around. 

[Ali the Helering]

27 minutes ago, davecake said:

Maybe Orlanth is dead is assuming a Lunar quisling king like Kangharl? Or maybe the Red Cow have just done a much better job of laying in their own food stocks, and so have more leverage? To the Red Cow, the Lunars are mostly offering food to those willing to become lay members of the Seven Mothers, they definitely are using the crisis to proselytize - and it works to an extent. But they aren’t using it for political submission (members of 7M are still clan members). 

And, of course, we are comparing it to Sheng whose approach was to offer nothing, destroy or steal what little they had , so besides no food they also had no shelter and no fire. And still send rape and murder squads around. 

Comparison needs to be fair in both directions. The 7M members are the Quislings. 

How many armies haven't looted, and killed those who resisted?  How many haven't raped as they proceeded and garrisoned? I knew Netherlanders who only survived WW2 by eating tulip bulbs. 

Advancing forces & garrisons often live off the land, uncaring for the suffering they cause. 

[davecake]

40 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Comparison needs to be fair in both directions. The 7M members are the Quislings. 

7M members like Kangharl, as I said. 

 

43 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

How many armies haven't looted, and killed those who resisted? 

Well, plenty have done so after taking a city etc, not many during mass humanitarian disasters years later. And not every looting is the Rape of Nanking. 

45 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Advancing forces & garrisons often live off the land, uncaring for the suffering they cause. 

The implication in the Greya stories is that this is not advancing forces, or garrisons, and they are not uncaring - they care enough about the suffering of the people to deliberately increase it, via regular rape and murder tours. 

[Ali the Helering]

15 hours ago, davecake said:

7M members like Kangharl, as I said. 

 

Well, plenty have done so after taking a city etc, not many during mass humanitarian disasters years later. And not every looting is the Rape of Nanking. 

The implication in the Greya stories is that this is not advancing forces, or garrisons, and they are not uncaring - they care enough about the suffering of the people to deliberately increase it, via regular rape and murder tours. 

I think you have a rather gilded image of armies.  Forget the taking of a city, I am referring to the 'liberation ' of food and valuables as troops advance accompanied by piecemeal murders rather than ethnic cleansing.  Rape occurs everywhere.  After a while prostitution on an industrial scale can emerge as formalised humiliation of a nation. (eg the Rieperbahn(sp?))

Garrisons conduct raids and pre-emptive strikes which seldom worried about  collateral damage before the era of mass media. 

Edited August 10, 2019 by Ali the Helering
mistyping

[davecake]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Sounds like the Ergeshi enjoy the privileged life in a Gulag or a work camp. I doubt they enjoy half as much care as the swine grown for slaughter.

The sources say they are subject to ritual humiliation, not torture and murder. They worship the earth deities etc. They are serfs, not prisoners - most of the days they just labour in the fields unmolested.  I'm not saying that it is a great life, just that (unless you think the Yelmalio cult is heavily into rape and torture) clearly leading much better lives than under Sheng. 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Sorry, but you are saying that starving the Pelorian dry farmers to death was Sheng's primary purpose

No just an actively pursued program. HIs primary purpose is returning Peloria to effectively pre-Dawn conditions, destroying urban civilisation with it. Starving the Pelorians to death is just a necessary side effect that he is totally willing to accept. 

(that is, of course, me being generous to Sheng. We know he destroys the farms, and doesn;'t care that as a result everyone starves. Possibly it is not a side effect and he really enjoys it though). 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

You are an apologetic spin doctor here.

Nope. I think the Lunars are a harsh, unpleasant, invading force. I just think there is a big difference between conquering and subjugating, and wholesale depopulation and grotesque misery with a side order of murder and rape for no particular reason. The Lunars wish to conquer Sartar and are willing to use harsh methods to do so, Sheng wishes to depopulate and destroy the civilisation of Peloria, and is happy for that brutal process to be flavouored with an much rape and torture as his men find entertaining. It is no comparison, and I find the endless reaching to excuse it bizarre. 

Sheng turns river red with blood for no reason other than to attract attention, and you talk about normal this is, and how the real villains are the exarchs for not giving in to this tactic sooner. And then call me the spin doctor. I don't get it. 

What would Sheng have to have done before you actually back away from this extreme moral relativist argument of 'we just can't distinguish between the moral culpability of any state that has killed or oppressed anyone ever'. He has murdered people wholesale. He has deliberately caused the death of millions simply because they are inconvenient to his desire to destroy their civilisation. He sets his men up as roaming rape and murder squads, for no reason other than to keep people in desperate fear. Is there literally anything he could have done that would make you say he was actually a bit worse than the Empires he conquered?

 

 

[Ali the Helering]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

The sources say they are subject to ritual humiliation, not torture and murder. They worship the earth deities etc. They are serfs, not prisoners - most of the days they just labour in the fields unmolested.  

I think you are making an unwarranted judgement concerning ritual humiliation.  That could be an implicit part of their daily routine.  Worshipping the Earth deities is a daily reminder of how their freedom of religion has been stripped away from them.  I also think that you have a rather odd perception of the joys of serfdom, since a prisoner can at least hope for freedom.

 

1 hour ago, davecake said:

No just an actively pursued program. HIs primary purpose is returning Peloria to effectively pre-Dawn conditions, destroying urban civilisation with it. Starving the Pelorians to death is just a necessary side effect that he is totally willing to accept. 

So glad that you aren't defending people who actively pursue a programme of turning Sartar into an image of Peloria-outside-the-Dome in the Glacial era, destroying their culture along the way.  Starving the Sartarites to death is just a happy outcome they are totally willing to accept. 

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

No just an actively pursued program. HIs primary purpose is returning Peloria to effectively pre-Dawn conditions, destroying urban civilisation with it. Starving the Pelorians to death is just a necessary side effect that he is totally willing to accept. 

Checking the Guide for this (and discovering a typo in the caption of the map of Sheng Seleris' empire, where the sub-chapter paragraph covers a hidden (but searchable) instance of Sheng), there is the factual description of Sheng depopulating Puchai on p. 264. Which is a terrible terror tactic, precedented only by Alkoth in the Darkness, and by Parg Ilisi.

The Battle of All Widows After A Week leaves the losing side in the same situation as the outcome of Argentium Thri'ile. This is what is done to the losing side of a decisive battle, in Pentan history. (Also compare Alavan Argay.)

 

I wonder why you don't pick up on this paragraph (Guide p.268f:

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When Sheng Seleris emerged from his century of Penitent Discipline he performed miracles throughout Boshan. The rulers of the province were beneficiaries of his blessings and supported Sheng Seleris in his second challenge against the Emperor (1363). When Sheng Seleris was forced to leave, the rulers of Boshan persisted in rebellion against the Dragon Emperor. They achieved immortality when they were cursed by the Exarchs and now live on in the hells of the Kralorelans.

Sure, it doesn't excuse his later atrocities in Kralorela. But it does paint a very different picture of his motivations.

 

(Another aside on the Guide: one of its strengths is that the factual information in there is written in the voice of the current culture dominating a region. How else is this sentence to be interpreted? P.267

"The rule of the barbarians ended in 1460 when Godunya invoked the Potential Curse he had hidden in 1363. Sheng Seleris was torn apart by his own barbarians."

Describing the Lunar Empire as "his own barbarians" is not exactly wrong, but...

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Nope. I think the Lunars are a harsh, unpleasant, invading force. I just think there is a big difference between conquering and subjugating, and wholesale depopulation and grotesque misery with a side order of murder and rape for no particular reason.

The Char-un conquest of Erigia remains uncommented as the victims weren't human but plants.

Parg Ilisi's atrocities against Eol required the Emperor to disown the practices for fear of general uprising in all of his satrapies. It was worse than anything the Carmanian Bull Shah doctrine had inflicted on places like Rinliddi.

The conquest of Sylila and the Provinces was done avoiding Dara Happan involvement, and the Dara Happans greatly resent that course of action. Likewise the subversion of Tarsh. Both the Eel-Ariash and the ruling dynasties of Sylila (the houses may change, but the objective of retaining control over the Provinces remains) stand for policies the Dara Happans are disgusted at.

Yes, the Dara Happans have a history in their fight against the EWF after liberation from the Sun Dragon Emperor that saw Saird under the temporary influence of their civilisation, but - perhaps because of the Carmanian mother? - the Sairdite experiment just showed once more that nothing good ever comes from that den of rebellion and sedition, and good riddance after the Dragonkill disaster.

The Dara Happans have a deeply rooted desire to destroy the rebels for good, but their hands are bound. Still, they plot to do as much "good" in eliminating the rebels as they can, spearheaded by Tatius, and if it means to turn their lands into a wasteland like after the Dragonkill, fine - just don't have your leaders killed in it this time.

3 hours ago, davecake said:

The Lunars wish to conquer Sartar

Some forces in the Lunar Empire wish to conquer Sartar and make it a profitable pacified province. Factions like the Eel-Ariash and their royal Tarshite branch. The Sylilite clan rivaling the Eel-Ariash for control of the Provinces wouldn't mind a new profitable province as long as it doesn't fall under Tarshite control, but for the time being, they are happy to join forces with the Yuthuppan-led efforts to turn Sartar into a depopulated wasteland.

Because that is what the Dara Happans desire from the conquest of Sartar - an end of all these rebel creatures for good. Annihilation is too good for them. Tatius is their champion, and Tatius takes enjoyment and pleasure from the atrocities his activities inflict on the rebels in repayment for millennia of humiliation. Once his new Reaching Moon temple is up and running, he will find the leisure to indulge in more hands-on forms of degradation and destruction.

Yes, the paragraph above is propaganda. It contains mostly truth, only the motives of Tatius are conjecture. In every bit as much conjecture as your motives ascribed to Sheng.

3 hours ago, davecake said:

(that is, of course, me being generous to Sheng. We know he destroys the farms, and doesn;'t care that as a result everyone starves. Possibly it is not a side effect and he really enjoys it though). 

Quoting this out of sequence here to illustrate how you mix fact - "we know he destroys the farms", reasonable conjecture "and doesn't care..." and spin doctoring "possibly ... he really enjoys it though".ci

I admit that your interpretation is the standard interpretation, and Sheng's activities and track record give enough fodder for such an interpretation of the written history. Speculation on his motivations and ignoring his visible steps at actual empire-building towards creating an utopian nomad-ruled solar empire are consistently downplayed or ignored by you, or presented as a pure dystopia.

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

and are willing to use harsh methods to do so, Sheng wishes to depopulate and destroy the civilisation of Peloria, and is happy for that brutal process to be flavouored with an much rape and torture as his men find entertaining.

Sheng integrates the Tripolis into his empire, and brings bureaucrats from Kralorela trained in supporting his demands. And he also transplants useful Dara Happan urbanites to Kralorela to create positive (and lasting) change in that hidebound culture. He cultivates what he likes best in both urban civilizations and has plans to develop both towards his ideal civilization.

His disciples also bring him the reports on the city of (Old) Pavis, the ideal urban site for a horse nomad ruler (never mind the stripes). The dynasty build by Joraz Khyrem shows some of the finest achievements urban horse nomad culture can bring, and artifacts from those ruins still are valued highly.

Sheng agrees with the aldryami that there is a too big population of farmers hurting and exploiting the sacred Earth in Peloria. Their main difference is that Sheng wants grasslands where the aldryami want forest. And given their past experience with the Char-un and the Moonburn of Rist, the aldryami probably won't be inclined to settle for a horse-friendly Taiga.

 

I would assume that Sheng's original impression of agriculture was learned in visits to Ignorance. Massive blood rites to power the growth of the fields (it's where Hon-eel would get the maize magics from). It is quite likely that Sheng assumes that all agricultural magic works like that. Coloring the river red with blood might even be his way to imitate those fertility rites for fertile pastures in Puchai.

 

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

It is no comparison, and I find the endless reaching to excuse it bizarre. 

I disagree. It is no comparison because history is written by the victors. The Lunar Empire is the result of a Mahdi uprising bringing weapons of mass destruction into a fight with regular armies. The fall-out in Tork and the strengthening of Dorastor with the influx of the grayskins remains. The Night of Horrors produced a new level of terror, outdoing even the First Battle of Chaos.

Kralorela has an evil underbelly as well, and the Eastern way is to accept that as part of the whole where it doesn't obstruct advancement of transcendence into the light. Thus, Huan-to and Sekever with his transcendence into the dark are considered foes, but local expressions of the dark can just be contained and don't require removal.

Kralorela is way more refined than the Lunar Empire in that way, and one reason for Sheng to bring Lunar overseers to Kralorela might be to reduce the un-necessary levels of refinement towards a more efficient administration of his assets.

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Sheng turns river red with blood for no reason other than to attract attention, and you talk about normal this is, and how the real villains are the exarchs for not giving in to this tactic sooner. And then call me the spin doctor. I don't get it. 

Calling the Crimson Bat to descend on Runegate after the Zombie onslaught didn't quite work in 1602 is the comparable terror warfare. In a single act of war, the Lunar Empire annihilated (not just killed) about a percent of the total population of Sartar in a day. And still the Sartarites didn't learn the lesson. There was a dragon that eliminated the Bat, otherwise the entire urban population of Sartar might have been annihilated over the course of the conquest. The Crimson Bat is very much a neutron bomb-like assault, leaving treasures and valuable stuff behind, satisfied with annhiliating the souls of its victims.

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

What would Sheng have to have done before you actually back away from this extreme moral relativist argument of 'we just can't distinguish between the moral culpability of any state that has killed or oppressed anyone ever'. He has murdered people wholesale.

Yes, and unapologetically so. "It was a regretful necessity" is what you get from perpretators and incitors of such atrocities. Like e.g. President Jackson or General Custer.

3 hours ago, davecake said:

He has deliberately caused the death of millions simply because they are inconvenient to his desire to destroy their civilisation.

I disagree with your portrayal of his motivation. Yes, he desires to transform their civilisation, and that transformed civilisation doesn't have a place for what he regards as useless parasites of society.

But then he had tried the inclusive approach, in Boshan, and it had been used against him and the supporters he had gained from that.

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

He sets his men up as roaming rape and murder squads, for no reason other than to keep people in desperate fear. Is there literally anything he could have done that would make you say he was actually a bit worse than the Empires he conquered?

Pages 104-114 of The Eleven Lights tell a very similar story. An unfettered Tatius would have put Parg Ilisi to shame, but Eel-Ariash influence on the emperor and his inner circle remains strong.

"He sets his men up as roaming rape and murder squads,"

Char-un patrols during the Sartar occupation?

Honestly, I think you are going out of your way to accuse Sheng and his army of rape. Where are all the broos caused by this?

The History of the Lunar Wanes has two mentions of rape. One for Parg Ilisi, the second for Beat-Pot Aelwrin. The Third and Fourth Wane doesn't mention any such activity.

Yes, Sheng destroyed cities to deliver a point. Pretty much in Assyrian or Republican Roman style. "Today Runegate, tomorrow maybe Wilmskirk, maybe Jonstown - Boldhome is behind those annoying peaks, so the Bat will have to take a detour."

The Lunars are masters of the same kind of atrocity warfare that sent their founders into rebellion against the Carmanians.

Sheng's ecological reforms are drastic, yes. They may have a valid magical and ecological underpinning, though, as the Lunar Way is feeding the dark, destructive side of Earth which is hostile to Sheng. Sheng is no Raider Khan like Jaldon. He aims to be an empire-builder, like Jenarong, only for the entire world. That's what he traded ascendation for.

(Or, as Greg told the story on one occasion at Castle Stahleck, quoted from memory: "Last temptation: Emperor of the World? Yeah, I'll take that." Smiling, in his jocular tone, not in those muted tones I remember from his readings of Greya's story.)

Speaking of Greya's story - the parts that I remember from this impressed me strongly about how wretched a life the Sixths of Dara Happa lead at the command of their Dara Happan betters. My extended family has lots of tales of escaping the advance of the Red Army on East Prussia, and Greya's story didn't impress me in any way or added anything to what already was in my family history. Her wretched existence prior to Sheng's conquest was what shocked me.

[davecake]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Speaking of Greya's story - the parts that I remember from this impressed me strongly about how wretched a life the Sixths of Dara Happa lead at the command of their Dara Happan betters. My extended family has lots of tales of escaping the advance of the Red Army on East Prussia, and Greya's story didn't impress me in any way or added anything to what already was in my family history. Her wretched existence prior to Sheng's conquest was what shocked me.

So, Greya’s earliest memory, and her entire childhood, takes place after Shengs conquest, and during his rule. Are we having this entire discussion because you are misremembering a key source? Are you misattributing the excesses of Shengs rule to the prior Lunar rulership, and the Lunar reconquest to Sheng? 

Edited August 10, 2019 by davecake

[scott-martin]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

And he also transplants useful Dara Happan urbanites to Kralorela to create positive (and lasting) change in that hidebound culture. He cultivates what he likes best in both urban civilizations and has plans to develop both towards his ideal civilization.

This is another opportunity. We know a fair amount about how the Lunar Way adjusted after the shock of Sheng. (Some might even say this is when the empire lost its sanity.) However, sources are currently silent on the other side of the steppe. How is the Godunya system different today from where it was before nomad pressure drew resources and attention away from other agendas? Were any long-term projects aborted or changed? Is he not going to make certain cosmic deadlines as easily?

Or maybe they say all of this wasn't even a distraction but part of the imperial process, whatever they have instead of Wanes. Maybe that's true and maybe it isn't, but even that would tell us a lot about how they construct the imperial cycle . . . who is essential (a lot of important people were either slaughtered or converted and would need to be replaced or rehabilitated), how their jobs are reallocated or discarded, what changes. How the spiritual journey of the emperor twists or remains on track despite obstacles.

We didn't even know that Sheng had eastern ambitions until relatively recently (post-KOS, the '90s) so I suspect this was a hugely traumatic event for them. One of the things that's interesting is that in the Guide where Sheng comes up as an interruption (p. 54) it's practically an aside compared to the NDR centuries previous. They might even consider it a new GL phenomenon to the extent to which they like to think about it at all . . . a different regime would focus on the more recent threat as scapegoat and consider all foreigners dangerous failed mystics, for example. Some regimes will talk about anything except what actually scares them.

Also unlike Peloria and Saird, there are zero pockets of Godunyan resistance on the 1450 map to rebuild from after the occupation ends. Nomad orange goes all the way up through Eristiland, across the dragonewt islands and down to the jungle's edge. Maybe that's because their reconstruction was more a "state of mind" but maybe it's because submission was total. Whoever is Godunya there now may not have a lot of continuity with the old one. "Godunya" may be more a term of dynastic art over there, the person who emerges from nowhere and leads them through the fire. 

Either way, they're still bothered by God Learnerism over there even though they never got the catharsis of outwitting Sheng on their own. Barbarians did it for us, nothing to see or notice here. Nothing really happened. Let's go back to old Warren Zevon songs and what could be construed as our spiritual theme park, carnival of the soul, our splendid isolation. Our "bardo." You fight. We don't win or lose.

 

Edited August 10, 2019 by scott-martin
stinger! x2

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

So, Greya’s earliest memory, and her entire childhood, takes place after Shengs conquest, and during his rule. Are we having this entire discussion because you are misremembering a key source? 

Greya's Story is simply a source that hasn't been published. I heard the story once, more than 20 years ago, from a distance, with Greg being hoarse as hell from three days of Convulsion. I didn't remember the name of the narrator.

Greya's story may be a key source, but it is one that is unavailable to the Gloranthan public. As is Ten Women Well Loved, and as are all of the other pieces of Gloranthan character prose Greg ever wrote, except for that Aftal fragment which was published as part of Missing Lands (in itself an item of unattainable rarity, and apart for Aftal's story and a few pieces of interest for the development history of Glorantha with little material that wasn't reprinted or expanded in the Guide).

If you own a copy, good for you. Treasure it like I treasure my copy of Hrestol's Saga. But neither is broadly available reading.

 

What do you make of this judgement of Sheng's occupation in the history of the Fifth Wane (Sourcebook p.175)

Quote

The nomad usurper had parceled the empire out to his subchiefs, who grazed their stock in the rich barley fields and annually culled the villages for slaves to sell. Meantime the southern provinces suffered even more, for the Kingdom of Tarsh regularly raided the region and departed with plunder, from both the hapless villagers and the nomad overlords.

In Lunar memory, the people of Saird suffered more at the hands of the raiders from Tarsh than the farmers occupied by the subchiefs who regularly would cull villages for slaves to sell (to whom?) and who would graze their horses on rich barley fields (which apparently continued to be tilled).

 

 

[davecake]

On 8/11/2019 at 12:35 AM, Joerg said:

Greya's Story is simply a source that hasn't been published.

It was published in Moon Rites. I have no special access, I just bought a copy of Moon Rites at the time. I tend to rate something that has been published to the public in any form more reliable on detail than things that never have. 

On 8/11/2019 at 12:35 AM, Joerg said:

published as part of Missing Lands (in itself an item of unattainable rarity, and apart for Aftal's story and a few pieces of interest for the development history of Glorantha with little material that wasn't reprinted or expanded in the Guide).

I have a copy of Missing Lands too. Of course, most of it is redundant after the Guide, but I find the fragments about Pamaltela useful.

On 8/11/2019 at 12:35 AM, Joerg said:

In Lunar memory, the people of Saird suffered more at the hands of the raiders from Tarsh than the farmers occupied by the subchiefs who regularly would cull villages for slaves to sell (to whom?) and who would graze their horses on rich barley fields (which apparently continued to be tilled).

Mostly, that Sheng cares much less about Saird than the Heartland. His motivations in Dara Happa are mythic and horrific, his motivations in Saird are simpler and more traditional. 

[davecake]

On 8/10/2019 at 6:04 PM, Joerg said:

I admit that your interpretation is the standard interpretation, and Sheng's activities and track record give enough fodder for such an interpretation of the written history.

It is very tempting to just leave this extremely frustrating discussion there. 

Of course you can construct a narrative in which a monstrously murderous tyrant like Sheng can be seen as more sympathetic. It has been done for every monstrously murderous tyrant in history. I have no idea why you wish to do so. It is far more interesting to take him as he is, a superhero who is willing to soak the earth in blood to accomplish his spiritual and cosmological goals. 

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, davecake said:

It is very tempting to just leave this extremely frustrating discussion there. 

Of course you can construct a narrative in which a monstrously murderous tyrant like Sheng can be seen as more sympathetic. It has been done for every monstrously murderous tyrant in history. I have no idea why you wish to do so. It is far more interesting to take him as he is, a superhero who is willing to soak the earth in blood to accomplish his spiritual and cosmological goals. 

Then let's close this part of the discussion - there are other things about Kralorela's dark underbelly that deserve attention.

Basically, because for every monstrously murderous tyrant correctly identified as such there are half a dozen historical characters with effectively the same track records who are remembered as upstanding cultural heroes by their (victorious) side.

I don't find an absolute monster that interesting. Sheng as the leader of a well-organized state with an eager bureaucracy combining the best features of Kralori and Dara Happan administration is more interesting to me than just another demon. If these bureaucrats are Eichmanns, so be it.

 

There are a lot of things in Kralorela that are suspicious - like e.g. the license Boshi Bushi has for his aberrant (and doubtless monstrous, if perhaps slightly less murderous) practices just for being Godunya's loyal monster. Sheng's activities in Boshan  show a purified, almost angelic AgartuSay as a wandering Sage, fully reformed. Was that prior to his Jolaty revelation? Was the Jolaty revelation something forced upon him in Boshan or after leaving?

Sedenya (as the Red Goddess) has a friendly side and a demonic one. Sheng is her Other, yet all that we see in his biography is his demonic side, except for the Boshan impressions. We don't have any written sources from his miraculous activities among the Pentans and Praxians, or in Ignorance. Those in Kralorela were re-written, as were those in Peloria.

 

 

[davecake]

On 8/12/2019 at 7:07 PM, Joerg said:

Sheng's activities in Boshan  show a purified, almost angelic AgartuSay as a wandering Sage,

It is quite specific that the *leaders* of the province benefit, not the people of the province. The 'angelic' is you strictly you extrapolating in a direction I think undeserved - I think rather, such leaders are inducted into the ranks of the Warmed etc, and Sheng shows them that he is able to perform great deeds of various kinds (generally of a great failed mystic and Solar hero). Compassionate to the general populace is not even implied. 

 

[davecake]

On 8/9/2019 at 9:27 PM, Joerg said:

So there is no mythic differene between Yelm the Celestial Emperor and Murharzarm the mortal emperor?

One is an aspect of the other.

On 8/10/2019 at 6:04 PM, Joerg said:

Pages 104-114 of The Eleven Lights tell a very similar story.

You literally just made up rape and murder squads against random citizenry in order to keep building that false equivalence. Just stop. 

On 8/10/2019 at 6:04 PM, Joerg said:

Honestly, I think you are going out of your way to accuse Sheng and his army of rape.

I took is straight out of Greg's Greya story, it rather stuck in the mind as an example of what life under Sheng was like. 

On 8/10/2019 at 6:04 PM, Joerg said:

Where are all the broos caused by this?

I really dislike the style of reasoning that goes 'we have first hand accounts from the victims, but where is the credible evidence?'  (noting the Greya story is, as you noted, one of the rare in print examples of Greg writing from a first person point of view). 

On 8/10/2019 at 6:04 PM, Joerg said:

Sheng's ecological reforms are drastic, yes. They may have a valid magical and ecological underpinning, though

Oh, it does. Sheng wants to return Dara Happa to the Jenarong era, raze their civilisation and return to the nomad era, and under more than a millenium of what he sees as mistakes. He thinks that is a perfectly reasonable goal well worth the deaths of millions - which is clearly monstrous. 

On 8/10/2019 at 11:11 PM, scott-martin said:

We know a fair amount about how the Lunar Way adjusted after the shock of Sheng. (Some might even say this is when the empire lost its sanity.) However, sources are currently silent on the other side of the steppe.

 I agree on the 'loss of sanity'. The gestalt entity that is the Red Emperor goes from a relatively stable guide to the Empire, to a contested and fractured unstable version, often seeming quite dysfunctional. 

I think it likely that Sheng, likewise, regards himself as reforming the Kralorelan system and returning to a purer version, as he does Peloria. I'm not quite sure how that works though. Does he reject Darudism and want to return to the ancient Solar Empire? I do think he thinks the Summer Land Heaven is a failure or gross mistake - it gives up on true spiritual advancement after death, while consigning the souls of the unworthy to torture in hell is, ultimately in his thinking, far more compassionate as it gives them the opportunity for spiritual purification. And suffering is just the illusionary mortal world. Sheng, in his version of the story, is not simply a mystic who failed at the last stop, he will be (once he conquers the world and is able to have his reign of harsh torture and slavery) the greatest boddhisvatva of all, because he is not blinded by 'compassion' (whether or not this theology is valid, or Sheng is just  a deluded sado-masochist justifying his spiritual failure, is something that may be best left undefined). Sheng believes the Kralorelan hells are ultimately a good thing. 

 

 

 

[scott-martin]

Let's open up the tale of Greya. Moon Rites is scarce but if there's demand maybe these fragments can get published in something like a Wyrm's Footnotes compilation some day.

Greya is from Esvuthil. She thinks she was born in around 1456 (4/47), when the once and future Lunar Empire is completely melting down as Sheng's "merry" hunt for the red man escalates. The liberation comes in 1469-70. There are glitches in the narrative that may either be Greg's improvisational editing or vestiges of how their form of sevening changes people's sense of self. It may also be lingering nightmare, a women's secret or both. The occupation may simply be the dark side of their moon.

The people eat leaves and savor cockroaches. They live in rubble heaps. The cities are ruined. "Demons" rove them and children are hidden in holes to keep them from rape and murder. Farming has been forgotten. It reminds me of how life must have been under the "digijelm," when darkness hunted the people for sport. Life gets better when the liberation comes.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

I think it likely that Sheng, likewise, regards himself as reforming the Kralorelan system and returning to a purer version, as he does Peloria. I'm not quite sure how that works though. Does he reject Darudism and want to return to the ancient Solar Empire? I do think he thinks the Summer Land Heaven is a failure or gross mistake - it gives up on true spiritual advancement after death, while consigning the souls of the unworthy to torture in hell is, ultimately in his thinking, far more compassionate as it gives them the opportunity for spiritual purification. And suffering is just the illusionary mortal world. Sheng, in his version of the story, is not simply a mystic who failed at the last stop, he will be (once he conquers the world and is able to have his reign of harsh torture and slavery) the greatest boddhisvatva of all, because he is not blinded by 'compassion' (whether or not this theology is valid, or Sheng is just  a deluded sado-masochist justifying his spiritual failure, is something that may be best left undefined). Sheng believes the Kralorelan hells are ultimately a good thing. 

Maybe a useful preliminary question is to ask what the Kralorelan equivalent of the greater darkness is and then apply the answer to Sheng's eastern agenda . . . or at least the exoteric stigmata thereof. One thing I know about him is that he appreciates suffering for what it teaches the soul as you say. In the east, where they make a big deal of how chaos lost, suffering is transitory and sacrificing all attachments ("ascetic mysticism") is progress. This may be why he tried to invade the Dawn Country by force, mixing the planes as it were by bringing a Praxian army to the gates of heaven. Of course he failed there.

What was Kralorela before it was Kralorela? The solar realm? Another dragon realm? Did Sheng even understand these distinctions?

Does this connect with the apparent Kralorelan dichotomy between "Splendor" where they are now and "Ignorance" that comes before experience or at least rejects insight? We know Sheng's empire encompassed both realms. Did teachings move from the north as well as between east and west?

In general I may be wrong but I don't consider him to be an intellectual magician but more of an instinctive force driven by urge and destiny. His apparatus, even more so. This makes it a little easier because we don't have to track so many footnotes.

ALSO, speaking of Sheng, footnotes and obscure publications, does anyone recall which Lore Auction rehearsed his background for the first time? I think it's in one of the Conpendia but mine are scattered around the house. Figure someone has it at hand. This is important as we figure out where he emerges as a fan favorite post-KOS.

Edited August 13, 2019 by scott-martin
ALSO

[davecake]

On 8/14/2019 at 12:10 AM, scott-martin said:

ALSO, speaking of Sheng, footnotes and obscure publications, does anyone recall which Lore Auction rehearsed his background for the first time?

I know there is info about Sheng in the GloranthaCon IV book. 

If there is more info about him published I’d like to know.