Toward a Better Kralorela

[Ian Absentia]

11 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Stripping away his stereotypes may be satisfying to our sensibilities, but I think it leaves us with a world that is ever less Greg Stafford's Glorantha. 

Yep.  As it was when he stepped away in the '80s and '90s.  YGMV, has become, out of necessity, YG(Absolutely Will)V.  Enjoy the journey further up and further in.

!I!

[g33k]

9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

You seem to have forgotten the 56 different ethnicities (cultures) currently in China. As has already been stated, Kralorela is currently a mix of only a couple of the predominant tropes and stereotypes. I'm not saying your additions aren't valid, just that to drop some of the problems of the stereotype, there needs to be greater research into the real history, including the peoples.

Actually, I think this impulse needs to be looked at very carefully.

As Jeff has said, Kralorela is explicitly NOT Fantasy China.  The more and more specifically-China elements, and specifically-Chinese combinations of more-broadly-known elements, the more you make it into Fantasy China.

So, yes - deprecate the worst stereotypes that perpetuate problem tropes.  And yes - add (carefully) a few of those less-sterotypical bits of ancient China.  But the more of Ancient China you include, the more you make Kralorela into Fantasy China.

So lean-in on other, non-China resources.  Aztec, Maya(!), And other Mesoamerican "feathered serpent" iconography, and (both draconic & non-draconic) myth-cycles.  Southeast Asia.  Polynesia (not limited to Hawai'i!).  And sure... grab tidbits of Euro-something, just because.

And ALSO lean, most of all, into GLORANTHA, into the historic and mythic evolution of Kralorela since the Dawn -- who was there at the beginning, what elements are still there, who invaded or migrated in, trade brought what things from where, how did they survive the Lesser & Greater Darkness, what impacts did Chaos bring?  How did the much more numerous & varied Keets differ from the Ducks?  And the other Elder Races... Uz, Mostali, Aldryami, Beastmen, etc?

And so on...

[Ali the Helering]

2 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Yep.  As it was when he stepped away in the '80s and '90s.  YGMV, has become, out of necessity, YG(Absolutely Will)V.  Enjoy the journey further up and further in.

!I!

Unfortunately I came to Glorantha before those days, and I still respect the original vision I encountered. Yep, things move on, but I don't think that it means trashing Greg's work in favour of a new and improved Glorantha.  

This is why I enjoy working with relatively 'Blank Lands', since my invention will not require massive reworking of Glorantha.  

My Glorantha certainly does vary. You have only to take a seat at my table to find that out. 

Further up & further in? The implication seems to be that that means 'better'.        It ain't necessarily so. 🤔

[g33k]

Remember:  Greg gregged even Greg Himself.

 

Edited July 27, 2019 by g33k
veneration

[Ali the Helering]

6 minutes ago, g33k said:

Remember:  Greg gregged even Greg Himself.

 

Yep. When the screaming and wall punching was over, you knew who to blame

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, g33k said:

Actually, I think this impulse needs to be looked at very carefully.

As Jeff has said, Kralorela is explicitly NOT Fantasy China.  The more and more specifically-China elements, and specifically-Chinese combinations of more-broadly-known elements, the more you make it into Fantasy China.

So, yes - deprecate the worst stereotypes that perpetuate problem tropes.  And yes - add (carefully) a few of those less-sterotypical bits of ancient China.  But the more of Ancient China you include, the more you make Kralorela into Fantasy China.

So lean-in on other, non-China resources.  Aztec, Maya(!), And other Mesoamerican "feathered serpent" iconography, and (both draconic & non-draconic) myth-cycles.  Southeast Asia.  Polynesia (not limited to Hawai'i!).  And sure... grab tidbits of Euro-something, just because.

And ALSO lean, most of all, into GLORANTHA, into the historic and mythic evolution of Kralorela since the Dawn -- who was there at the beginning, what elements are still there, who invaded or migrated in, trade brought what things from where, how did they survive the Lesser & Greater Darkness, what impacts did Chaos bring?  How did the much more numerous & varied Keets differ from the Ducks?  And the other Elder Races... Uz, Mostali, Aldryami, Beastmen, etc?

And so on...

What I meant was - there are 56 ethnicities that are within the land we call "China" now, that have greatly varying traditions, cultures, myths, values, histories. As has already been mentioned, shamanism.

I think for some of us, (again, which has been said) the problem is that it's westerner's impression of a fantasy China. And unlike the main areas, there's not a lot (as much of) a *real historical* China.... Which is what makes the cringe. It's not unlike the expectation that I drink coke and eat KFC, so that's what hosts will order for me when I'm invited to do a lecture... (I rarely have KGC, and gave up coke decades ago!) (*as I've already said, I've been living here in China for about 10 years now)

[soltakss]

9 hours ago, JonL said:

Frequently using English-ish descripto-nyms in much of Genertela (e.g. Boldhome, Johnstown, Dead Place, Shadow Plateau, Castle Coast, etc.) and then switching to almost-all Mandarin-ish names in Kralorela can come off as a bit Orientalist. At a quick glance, the only plain English names I immediately see there are the Dragon Newt cities. 

Personally, I'd be happier with Jade Dragon, Golden Phoenix Gardens and so on, rather than names that either sounds vaguely Chinese (Whichever language that is) or are based on actual Mandarin/Cantonese words. 

[JonL]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Personally, I'd be happier with Jade Dragon, Golden Phoenix Gardens and so on, rather than names that either sounds vaguely Chinese (Whichever language that is) or are based on actual Mandarin/Cantonese words. 

Agreed. 

The names should convey meaning to the players.

Edited July 28, 2019 by JonL

[g33k]

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

...

Translating "Creekstream River" to produce anything but a ludicrous word salad is an exercise in frustration.

...

 

To be brutally Frank, "Creekstream River" is pretty ludicrous in English (by the lights of this native speaker).

This is in keeping with MANY early Glorantha-isms... ludicrousity abounds!

[Bill the barbarian]

22 minutes ago, g33k said:

This is in keeping with MANY early Glorantha-isms... ludicrousity abounds!

Oh, duck you, and that ludicrous opinion! Ludicrousity in Glorantha, the idea!, Humph!

<In an east end London accent>

"No ludicrousity to see 'ere, move along..."

[Tindalos]

5 hours ago, g33k said:

To be brutally Frank, "Creekstream River" is pretty ludicrous in English (by the lights of this native speaker).

This is in keeping with MANY early Glorantha-isms... ludicrousity abounds!

Of course, according to the Sartar Companion, Creekstream River is itself a translation of "Afrasaronafra," meaning The River of River. (Or maybe of Rivers, in the same way as Shahanshah means King of Kings, or even Shan Shan seems to mean the Mountains of Mountains.)

 

6 hours ago, soltakss said:

Personally, I'd be happier with Jade Dragon, Golden Phoenix Gardens and so on, rather than names that either sounds vaguely Chinese (Whichever language that is) or are based on actual Mandarin/Cantonese words. 

A few cities do have an implication of their meaning, although it is a few. Maybe if more places had names like Fengsheng (Hill of the Phoenix) and we could figure out the rest it would be possible to have an anglicised name list.

[Ali the Helering]

Whilst I am, as I said earlier, in sympathy with some of the motivation here, I would like to point out that the moment you depart Maniria the same linguistic problems arise. The names mimic the cultures Greg used as models. 

My issue is with the rendering of some place names into English in the first place, an immersion breaker if ever there was one.  On reflection, that may be why I prefer to play elsewhere... 🤔

[metcalph]

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

Neither Mandarin or Exarch are really English terms, although Mandarin has been adopted both as the name for the language and as the term for a type of bureaucrat.

Mandarin is an english term more than it is a Chinese one (the word originally is Portuguese diplomat's spelling error in Malay).  It remains a useful word to describe the functionaries at hand.

Exarch is a more technical word (literally Ex Archos, from the Lord) and unusual to see in a Cathayesque setting.  I think the gloranthan term comes from the God Learners (the latin equivalent is deputy which appears in discussions of the Middle Sea Empire) as the old governmental norms have been destroyed in the burning of the books.

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

The difference between a provincial governor and a king can be minimal when the higher authority only rarely intervenes. The main difference appears to be that there are no territorial conflicts, presumably to ensure the magic flow to the emperor's divinity.

 Nah.  The leaders of the provinces should be Kings rather than provincial governors.  The simplest way to ensure no territorial conflicts would be to make them Sacred Kings, limited to a ceremonial role.

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

There appears to be no way for a warlord to conquer the post of an exarch or two and become established in the heavenly order of things,

I disagree.  Boshan is run by the family of Imolo Wen who "runs all the good establishments in the Province" (Guide p268)   Hanjan's government has closes ties with a crime syndicate (Guide p272).  The simplest way for a warlord to become Provincial Exarch would be appointed to a vacancy.  The Exarchs are not appointed only from best of the the Hsin Tu (ie Mandarins and worshippers of Vashanti) but from all the Imperial Cults (ie Geomancers, Alchemists, Warriors, Shamans, Shape-shifters etc).  A warlord could theoretically drive all the better draconists than him into exile and the position is his.

 

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

The rank of a minister at the emperor's court may very well have some ritual importance, and might be one of the centralizing elements in Kralori administration.

It's been replaced by Archexarch.  The three Archexarchs have functions copied from the historical Ministries.

 

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Of course, according to the Sartar Companion, Creekstream River is itself a translation of "Afrasaronafra," meaning The River of River. (Or maybe of Rivers, in the same way as Shahanshah means King of Kings, or even Shan Shan seems to mean the Mountains of Mountains.)

Isn't that what you get in the UK? River Avon is like river-river... And other silliness after translation.

2 hours ago, Tindalos said:

A few cities do have an implication of their meaning, although it is a few. Maybe if more places had names like Fengsheng (Hill of the Phoenix) and we could figure out the rest it would be possible to have an anglicised name list.

Well, interestingly, there are some names translated, and others not. Beijing is North Capital, e.g.. No-one translates it to that. Though. However, where I am is the famous (in China) Xihu, which is usually referred to as West Lake. 

The Huanglong stadium is called Yellow Dragon. Etc etc. And, of course, the Summer Palace.

 

In saying all of that, I totally get (and perhaps agree) about the language use.

Edited July 28, 2019 by Shiningbrow

[Leingod]

29 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Isn't that what you get in the UK? River Avon is like river-river... And other silliness after translation.

The thing that happens in the U.K. is mostly just a succession of people speaking different languages (including descendants of the original language, morphed into a new one over time) successively tacking on additions to names that happen to be utterly redundant. For example, an ancient Briton community on a particular hill was named "Bre", Celtic for "hill". When the Saxons conquered it, they called it "Briudun", adding the Saxon suffix "-dun," which means "hill". The community is now called "Breedon on the Hill", i.e. "Hill-Hill on the Hill".

You also see it in the U.S., with lots of stuff like "Rio Grande River" and "the La Brea Tar Pits."

[soltakss]

44 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Isn't that what you get in the UK? River Avon is like river-river... And other silliness after translation.

Yes, Avon means River, as does Ouse, or maybe it means flowing water, hence the number of different rivers with Avon or Ouse in the names.

Also, Torpenhow is a village that means Hill hill hill, as Tor, Penn and Hawe all mean hill. Leingod has another example that I hadn't heard of.

[Austin]

2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

The names mimic the cultures Greg used as models. 

My issue is with the rendering of some place names into English in the first place, an immersion breaker if ever there was one.  On reflection, that may be why I prefer to play elsewhere... 🤔

Maybe another way to tackle the discussion would be to think about how the Kralorelans know/name the peoples of Dragon Pass? With such distances, I feel like it's reasonable that the "exotic-izing" goes both ways. Is Sartar "Sartiriea" or "Sartela" or something weird and wrong? How about Kero Fin? "Missus Big Ol' Feck-Off Mountain" ? (Nah, sounds too trollish to my imagination...)

Although it hugely would add to the workload involved, I can see a cool way to present Kralorela being an alternate map of Glorantha, with English for the Kralorelan place-names (Summer Palace, etc. ...) and non-English for all the familiar locations. Turn comfortable, familiar Dragon Pass into "that weird place over there where!"

[Joerg]

Just now, Crel said:

Maybe another way to tackle the discussion would be to think about how the Kralorelans know/name the peoples of Dragon Pass? With such distances, I feel like it's reasonable that the "exotic-izing" goes both ways. Is Sartar "Sartiriea" or "Sartela" or something weird and wrong? How about Kero Fin? "Missus Big Ol' Feck-Off Mountain" ? (Nah, sounds too trollish to my imagination...)

There have been a number of such suggestions.

Peter Metcalfe created a letter posted to the Karshin aliens - i.e. sailors from Karse and beyond - on the digest. He also created a summary term for the rider people of the wastes, whether Praxian beast riders or Pentan horse nomads, in Introduction to the Hero Wars.

Revealed Mythologies refers to all the non-Vithelan territories as Meksornmali, but has specific names for the theist north (Deralo, or Square Land), the sorcerous west (Heornamalo, or Half Circle Land) and the animist south (Vatalemo, or Triangle Land). (pp.72, 74)

 

Just now, Crel said:

Although it hugely would add to the workload involved, I can see a cool way to present Kralorela being an alternate map of Glorantha, with English for the Kralorelan place-names (Summer Palace, etc. ...) and non-English for all the familiar locations.

But then, you might have to place "Innsmouth" on the map for Xiangguanghui (in Shiyang Province, p.284).

Just now, Crel said:

Turn comfortable, familiar Dragon Pass into "that weird place over there where!"

Dragon Pass could be "Survival in Weakness".

 

[metcalph]

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Peter Metcalfe created a letter posted to the Karshin aliens - i.e. sailors from Karse and beyond - on the digest. He also created a summary term for the rider people of the wastes, whether Praxian beast riders or Pentan horse nomads, in Introduction to the Hero Wars.

While Karshin is mine, the Nichung is Greg's.  There's also Hemkarba (in Revealed Mythologies) for Dragon Pass.

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

14 hours ago, g33k said:

To be brutally Frank, "Creekstream River" is pretty ludicrous in English (by the lights of this native speaker).

I see you don't live in, like, England or New England

[g33k]

2 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I see you don't live in, like, England or New England

<sigh>

OK, time for all of us native English speakers to confess -- English itself is ludicrous.

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

Just now, g33k said:

OK, time for all of us native English speakers to confess -- English itself is ludicrous

well yes

the people i feel bad for are the people who have to learn it as a second language, it's batshit, who wants to learn a language with such a remarkably ridiculous number of vowels and even more ridiculous number of diphthongs.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

the people i feel bad for are the people who have to learn it as a second language, it's batshit, who wants to learn a language with such a remarkably ridiculous number of vowels and even more ridiculous number of diphthongs.

Compared to German, there may be fewer vowels, but probably more diphtongs. What really is grating is the complete absence of consistency since the northern London and Anglian dialect was transcribed with the Wessex orthography. Shakespearean English might have seen the last half-hearted attempt to bring orthography somewhere into the neighborhood of the dominant dialects, but given the plethora of dialects this was bound to fail.

Oxford English is a fairly recent standard for pronunciation, but can in no way be derived from orthography. And that's without colonial forms of English like in India, South Africa or Kenya. Not to mention non-Commonwealth forms...

 

Partially because my word processor forces me to choose, partially due to Chaosium's submission preferences, I tried to switch my orthography from the Oxford dictionary to Webster, but Oxford remains my ideal for pronunciation (not that my messed up accent follows suit, though - German modified by parroting other forms of second language English-speakers' pronunciations). Add to that an active vocabulary that contains words that I have hardly ever heard pronounced by a low-level-dialect native speaker, and you can get some rather ideosyncratic pronunciations from me.

[Qizilbashwoman]

Just now, Joerg said:

Compared to German

I'm about to make you cringe: I am starting to be able to read German. But I pronounce it exactly like Yiddish: with a rolled r like Italian, five tense vowels [a ɛ ɪ ɔ ʊ], ü is [ɪ], ö is [ɛ], eu is [aɪ], ei is either [aɪ] or [ɛɪ], etc. and absolutely no glottal stops anywhere, which is like... the most infamous part of German to non-German speakers. Vos denkstu, mayn khaver? ([khaver = comrade < Hebrew])

I know, I know, I'm terrible. But I'm not about to mess up my Yiddish (i'm a third-year learner) just because I want to dig my way through scholarly articles in German.

[scott-martin]

28 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

But I pronounce it exactly like Yiddish: with a rolled r like Italian, five tense vowels [a ɛ ɪ ɔ ʊ], ü is [ɪ], ö is [ɛ], eu is [aɪ], ei is either [aɪ] or [ɛɪ], etc. and absolutely no glottal stops anywhere, which is like... the most infamous part of German to non-German speakers.

Sounds a little like Cantonese. I forget where they talk like that. I don't think it's Hamburg but . . .