Susimetsa

The RQ experience system is one of its greatest strengths, imho, simply because it follows everyday logic: use the skill, or spend time to study it in other ways, and it will improve. The character will not magically develop in a skill they have never focussed on, as they are likely to do in many levelled systems.

Most of this discussion is a bit technical for me, but I just want to point out that some period rapier manuals stress that every parry should be an attack - meaning that while you are using your blade to turn the attacking thrust aside, you are simultaneously aiming and thrusting your blade at the enemy. In short, the attack and the parry are part of the same movement. This doesn't take away your argument that the parry takes place a little before the attack arrives to the target, of course.

That one's slipped completely under my radar! Thanks for the heads-up!

The classic choices for this are MERP/HARP/Rolemaster. D100 with no other dice used and pretty interesting critical tables for various damage types. I've listed them in the order of complexity from simplest to most complex.

I got it from Santa, amongst other treasures close to my heart. 😄

Same situation here - although I'm keeping myself in suspense by not asking whether I'm getting it or not. 😄

That reminds me of some supplement my friend bought when we were teens... Guns, guns, guns, I think it was called. He was a hunter and knew about guns, so suddenly we were designing "realistic" weapons for our Twilight 2000 and other games with these complex charts and formulas... It was supposed to be compatible with pretty much any RPG system and time period. I wonder if anyone has tried it with BRP...(?) Found it. Apparently, it first appeared in 1991... So... We would have been in our VERY late teens at that point... 😛 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns!_Guns!_Guns!

Thanks for the answers! So it is basically a new and improved - and more expensive - version of the Quick Start rules, meant to be put aside when upgrading to the core book? Or a middle step between the Quick Start rules and the full rules? I'm sorry for the daft questions. This has probably been explained somewhere. I was just confused when I read - on a local store page - that it "contains everything you need to play the world's best roleplaying game". 😕

I have a hard time adjusting to the idea that the Starter Set doesn't include the character generation rules (if I've understood it correctly). 😕 I guess I'm too old-fashioned in that sense...

True for some rapiers, mainly from the later period. Almost all 16th century rapiers I've seen can be used in either hand. It is only with some types of swept hilts (beginning to appear at/after the turn of the century) that they begin to be decidedly right-handed - but even in 1630's, so-called Pappenheimer rapiers had shell guards that were completely mirrored (could be wielded equally well with either hand). And, of course, the Spanish style cup-hilts and their Italian variants were also usable with either hand even in the period of transitional rapiers (the lighter rapiers appearing mainly in the early 17th century) that co-existed with the heavier types for several decades.

You can always house-rule it to have a skill representing a more extensive category. 1-H thrusting swords, 1-H slashing swords or just 1-H Swords. And if a character has to pick up a new type of weapon within the same category (old one is broken, a looted sword looks cooler), they'll just have to take a period of adjustment with a negative modifier (-10 to -40 based on the similarity of the weapons) to use the new sword with their full skill chance (e.g. each day/week with the new weapon, your penalty decreases by 10). Requiring a period of adjustment might provide a nice dramatic moment in a fight if one weapon breaks and the character must quickly snatch another one from a conveniently-placed wall mounting to continue the fight.

True. For mass melee combat, you rely on basic drills, shields, morale and formations. What a single soldier lacks in fighting skills is made up by the protection offered by the formation. And, or course, everyone is basically cannon fodder in those situations - we are not talking about individual heroes anymore. It is a mass against mass. For fantastical creatures possessing the strength of 10 men or more, like trolls, all bets are off. Your hero would benefit from the knowledge of angles etc., of course, because they would then be able to assess the reach etc. of the troll - and trolls have a way of telegraphing their moves which would also help in dodging them - but you would not want to stand in formation in front of one of them. You want to have room around to you dodge and backtrack and attack when necessary. Mind you, the above paragraph is pure supposition as there are no historical examples to draw from, aside from perhaps war elephants, but I know very little of them or how they were taken down - if they were.

Historically, you actively defend with pretty much every sword type - only a fool would not do so. Longsword techniques have guards where combatants hold their swords in positions where they block most lines of attack and can quickly move to protect another when needed (when your opponent switches to another guard - changing their sword position and opening themselves a new set of attack lines - you change your guard to match to block as many of those new lines of attack as you can). Thus, you need feints to make your opponent move their sword away from the area you want to attack. This is perhaps even more pronounced with the rapier (and rapier + another weapon) styles, where the guard of the rapier became a shield in its own right - when you hold a sword with a complex hilt (swept hilt, shell guard, bell guard, ring guard) at arm's length towards your opponent, both the angle of the blade and the hilt block a decent number of lines of attack. The tiny shield used with the rapier (a buckler) was also held at an arm's length towards the enemy - which effectively protects from as many lines of attack as a larger shield held closer to the body would. Because of these considerations of lines and angles, many fencing masters stressed that one must learn one’s letters before attempting to learn fencing, as one needed to understand and take advantage of circles, lines and angles.

Wonderful cover by Ossi, indeed! I never thought I'd have to buy a copy of Runequest again, but this seems to be a must buy. I'll rationalise it with the art and nostalgia. :D

I find this discussion very helpful, as I am currently tweaking the armour table for 30 Years War and was wondering how to take into account that the buffcoat is always worn underneath any heavier armour, so it is basically part of any heavier armour variants. However, it is rather simple for the period from that point forward, because it is basically a question of which parts of the body you wear "plate" armour on (only chest&back or adding upper arms and thighs, or going full armour). I'm still working on defining the helmets, however: Secrete (skullcap) +1 none (worn under a wide-brimmed felt hat) Morion +1 −5% to perception skills, cannot use musket (impossible to bring to shoulder because of the helmet's brim) Birnhelm +1 −5% to perception skills Burgonet +2 −15% to perception skills

Thank you for the necro! You are right - in the end I decided to keep it very simple. I did want to include them in some form, however, as one of the players is a period and swashbuckling fan and kind of expected something to do with different schools of fencing. But since they were first-timers, I left out anything too complex and used the idea mostly as "flavour". We've only had one short session thus far (real life issues keep taking priority) but it went quite well. After reading the above-mentioned sources and taking hints from wherever I could, here's the current state of the schools (which still needs proper long-term playtesting and balancing): Di Grassi’s school “Therefore leauing aside this maner of defence, let each man vse to oppose, one only weapon against the enimies sworde, keeping the other free, that he may be able to strike at his pleasure.” Two-weapon master - Ignores off-hand penalty of -20% Fabris’ school “No defensive or offensive action can be effected outside of the four guards [...] I have used pictures to illustrate the sheer variety of postures, of positions of the sword, feet and body that can be derived from them.” Scientific approach - shift random hit location to an adjoining hit location Thibault’s school “[O]nce we have contact between the blades, we are able to make our approaches against the adversary with assurance, since we are certain always to know in time the designs he intends to use against us, which no are sooner begun than we have already prepared ourselves against them.” Destreza approach - an additional dodge based on dance skill -20% Fiore’s school “Here are three opponents who all want to kill this Master. The first aims to kill him with a thrust. The second intends a cut. The third will throw his sword at the master like a spear. If the Master can perform a mighty deed and avoid being killed, then God will have indeed blessed him with great skill.” Multiple opponents - free extra parry at -20% Ghisliero’s school His guards are positions from which to attack or defend and his parries are counter-attacks. Soldier’s approach - After successful parry, free counter-attack (at -25%) Capo Ferro’s school “Thence it is also seen that defense is the principal action in fencing, and that no one must proceed to offense, if not by way of legitimate defense.” Defensive approach - off-hand cloak as medium shield (ap/hp 15) Köppe’s school Doctor of medicine and philosophy, a fencing master in Magdeburg Anatomical precision - Damage Bonus 1D3 Swetnam’s school "For he that is well instructed in the perfect skill with his weapon although but small of stature, and weake of strength, may with a little moving of his foote or suddain turning of his hand, or with the quick agility of his body kil and bring to the ground the tall and strongest man that is." Dexterity and movement - Attacks with rapiers and daggers: base DEX*2, Roll Fumble twice and choose result

Thank you! Looks a bit more complex than what I am willing to throw at first-time players, but it certainly gives me a better idea of how to build up a decent fencing school system.

I'm very new to the system (having played one of the first editions of Runequest back in late 80's) and unfamiliar with the balances etc. Still, I'm looking to instill some historical colour to rapier fencing. Looking at some of the old masters, I made some arbitrary choices on what their possible strengths might be, but I wind up in trouble when trying to turn them into RPG terms. This means that my ideas of possible talents and bonuses etc. are probably not even close to what they should be. So, basically, I'd like to hear some input and ideas pertaining to my initial draft: Fencing styles / schools Fencing (school) - An advanced skill learned separately for each school. To be rolled at the beginning of an encounter. Possibly repeated if the fencer loses focus for some reason (interruption or serious wound). On successful roll, the fencer gains the advantage(s) listed underneath the school of fencing for that encounter. Only one fencing school can be used at a time. Di Grassi’s school “Therefore leauing aside this maner of defence, let each man vse to oppose, one only weapon against the enimies sworde, keeping the other free, that he may be able to strike at his pleasure.” - Two-weapon mastery - no -20% for offhand use. Fabris’ school “No defensive or offensive action can be effected outside of the four guards [...] I have used pictures to illustrate the sheer variety of postures, of positions of the sword, feet and body that can be derived from them.” - Scientific approach - Lines of attack - Thibault’s school “once we have contact between the blades, we are able to make our approaches against the adversary with assurance, since we are certain always to know in time the designs he intends to use against us, which no are sooner begun than we have already prepared ourselves against them.” - Destreza approach - Using the circle - part of dance skill bonus to defense? Fiore’s school “Here are three opponents who all want to kill this Master. The first aims to kill him with a thrust. The second intends a cut. The third will throw his sword at the master like a spear. If the Master can perform a mighty deed and avoid being killed, then God will have indeed blessed him with great skill.” - Multiple opponents - Ghisliero’s school His guards are positions from which to attack or defend and his parries are counter-attacks. - Soldier’s approach - After successful parry, free attack at -40% Capo Ferro’s school “Thence it is also seen that defense is the principal action in fencing, and that no one must proceed to offense, if not by way of legitimate defense.” - Defensive approach - Additional parry at -30% Köppe’s school Doctor of medicine and philosophy, a fencing master in Magdeburg - Anatomical approach - Surgical precision - part of medicine skill bonus to attacks? Swetnam’s school "For he that is well instructed in the perfect skill with his weapon although but small of stature, and weake of strength, may with a little moving of his foote or suddain turning of his hand, or with the quick agility of his body kil and bring to the ground the tall and strongest man that is." - Dexterity and movement - Attacks with rapiers and daggers +DEX

Necromancy as well, but I must just say that I agree with this. Also, iirc, Cornwell solved the problem of military hierarchy (soldiers not able to do much other than follow orders unless sent on missions where they have more self-governance) by separating Sharpe's men from the rifleman regiment - in effect having them act in detached duty throughout the early novels. My wife an I are writing a novel series set in the 30 years war (in our native language, so this is not an advertisement) and we picked a mercenary dragoon company as our central unit to follow. As the company is not part of a regiment (dragoon companies worked independently in the Swedish army until Gustavus Adolphus began to combine them into regiments in 1630-1631), it gives them a lot of room for adventure - message quests, infiltration, spy missions etc. etc. For an RPG, you might have one of the characters be one of the three main officers in a company (captain, lieutenant, ensign) and have the other characters be under his command. You just have to be careful not to pick the bully as the one playing the captain...

Before the birth of pedagogy and andragogy (finding the best and most efficient means to teach a subject to a group of people), we had master-apprentice training (which is still used today, of course). Given a good master who cares for the apprentice (and doesn't just use them as a punching bag for their drunken moments) it is still the most efficient way to teach a single person or a very small group: you work with your apprentice, show them how you do things (even if you cannot explain it in words) and give them more and more difficult tasks as their skills improve. In order to teach larger groups efficiently (as we need to do in the modern world), you need pedagogical theories, methods (didactics) and attitude that goes beyond the requirements of master-apprentice relationships. Teaching someone to toss a spear with the pointy end hitting the target is very much something you can teach in a master-apprentice relationship. Actually, it doesn't even require that. Fathers and elder siblings and villagers probably taught it to the younger children in their outdoor games long before the skill was actually needed to hunt anything. So, basically, in an RPG setting, I'd just have the characters go and practice with a group of children and have them run and laugh at the inexperience of the characters while they learn. And, yes, I'm also a teacher (I actually teach pedagogy to future teachers). 😕

I still consider Richard Lester's The Three Musketeers and The Four Musketeers as the "go to" movies for the period, but Alatriste is a decent watch and shows the dirtier side of the era. It suffers from trying to cover all of the novels in one short film, however, and skips along at far too great pace for the story to have real impact. Many wonderful scenes, however. There's also a Spanish TV series of Alatriste, but I have not been able to find it in English anywhere. The author of the novels is a huge Dumas fan and it shows in his writing (especially in Club Dumas). The novels suffer a bit from the melancholy description of the fall of Spain's glory that takes quite a bit of room in each story. The series does get better as it continues, though, and I also hope for eventual translations of the last couple of novels.

You are right - the system doesn't allow for much variety or individuality between weapons in this regard. Which is good, since it makes it faster. One of the reasons I stopped playing Rolemaster was that while it seemed to go into detail with different hit tables for each weapon and armour combination, that detail was as much guesswork and supposition as any simpler system (i.e. not based on any real world data) and only caused the fights to stretch into eternity.

Shows how much time I've had to familiarise myself with the rules (just beginning to read them after playing Runequest back in the late 80's early 90's). But, yes, if the rapier in BRP is comparable to an in-game foil (a term that was used for a practice sword in the period, iirc) it is probably mean to represent the civilian rapier , i.e. transitional rapier (if you are playing a King's Musketeers kind of character, you'd opt for the heavier version). Probably the ones only meant for thrusting. In that case, a sword cane could get close to it in attack ability, but would still be weaker in defence. Transitional rapiers often had less sturdy hilts than late 16th century rapiers (and military rapiers), but they still had them. And rapier hilts were meant to protect the hand well enough so that the fencers didn't have to use armoured gloves anymore - so a sword cane would be much worse at defence.

Coming to this a bit late, but I hope you forgive me. I really cannot see sword canes being as effective as rapiers in a fight. A rapier - if we talk about the kinds of rapiers used e.g. in the 17th century battlefields by troops such as Pappenheim's cuirassiers - is a tough 1.5kg (3lb) sword that can both cut and thrust. A sword cane is a thrust weapon only and would be pretty weak in comparison. Even weaker than the "transitional" rapiers (1kg, 2lb) that began to emerge in the early 17th century as civilian weapons, but perhaps otherwise comparable. Thinking as I write, I'd give the sword cane similar damage as the light transitional rapier, but have it break more easily and give a -10% or -20% to parry.