Ian Absentia

Well...yes. Isn't everyone? Point taken. What I'm trying to grok, though, are the circumstances under which they'll extend those social bonds to outsiders -- rare in the extreme. And, in particular, the even rarer event when some hapless sacrificial captive throws a wrench in their fun and actually bonds with the tusker intended to kill him. With personal experience in certain fraternal organisations, I'm keenly aware that being initiated and "accepted" do not necessitate affection. Sometimes your brothers (and sisters) are the worst dicks imaginable. !i!

I was thinking more along the lines of the involuntary candidates who're "volunteered" for the initiation rite, and who, maybe, just maybe, survive the ordeal whether they wanted to join up or not. I guess, ultimately, Gouger wouldn't have let you live if you didn't have being a Tusk Rider somewhere deep in your heart. !i!

You know, I discounted the fact that the successful petitioner would have at least two new allies on their side: Gouger, the god of Tuskers, who presumably approved of subduing one of its own; and the subdued Tusker itself! Whether or not the Tusk Riders themselves like the survivor of the rite, they'd have to extend them at least grudging respect. So, is initiation to the Cult of the Bloody Tusk de facto initiation to a tribe of Tusk Riders? I mean, no one else bends a knee to the Bloody Tusk, do they? !i!

Oi, @Puckohue, is that the book with the expanded and structurally developed Ronegarth (formerly Raus Fort) in it? !i!

Too true. I imagine they'd appreciate the effects of the Stockholm Syndrome on an involuntary convert, too. Also, perhaps there might be a form of protection against killing a new initiate -- voluntary or otherwise -- to the Cult of the Bloody Tusk. Spirit(s) of Reprisal. As long as the ritual of Tusker-wrangling isn't staged as a sham, the SoR of any or all of the three different spiritual entities composing the cult "board of deities" may bestow some grace and protection on the newby, and the Tusk Riders would be aware of it. !i!

Following on from the Peaceful Cut discussion elsewhere, I stumbled into the description of the Bloody Cut skill in the entry for Tusk Riders in the Gloranthan Bestiary, which in turn led me to the description of initiation into the Cult of the Bloody Tusk. In particular, for non-Tusk Riders, the initiation rite involves wrangling a Tusker with one's bare hands. Acknowledging that this "initiation rite" amounts to a characteristically cruel joke at the expense of the petitioner, the Tusk Riders sometimes "offer" the rite to their captives, presumably with predictably bloody results. But what happens if the petitioner actually succeeds in subduing the Tusker? My thoughts: For a non-captive petitioner, the initiation will be technically honored, but an incessant string of personal challenges will continue until the non-Tusk Rider succeeds in subduing the tribe as well as the swine. For a captive sacrifice, the Tusk Riders never promised acceptance into the tribe, but would keep them on as a slave instead. Riffing off No.2 above, the Tusk Riders never promised that initiation into the cult would provide protection against summary execution. Maybe they give you a head start before chasing you down.* As Glorantha's own orcs, I decline to accept the notion that they're looking for converts to the cause. The results of initiation for outsiders is going to be consistently nasty and unwelcoming. !i! (*Don't worry! Tuskers -- and wild boar -- only have DEX=1d6 in Glorantha. Roll to dodge!)

Oh, hrm. I just noticed the Bloody Cut skill for Tusk Riders in the Gloranthan Bestiary, clearly intended as the inverse of the Peaceful Cut. Clearly described as a skill, typically paired with the Rune spell Death Binding. It's a physical torture skill, basically, but presumably ceremonial in nature as we were speculating above, but still not inately magical. If it were a spirit magic spell like Food Song and (RQ3) Peaceful Cut, I reckon it would make sense to similarly pair it with Slaughter/Butchery. !I!

Dang, there it is, in the Gods of Glorantha entry for Waha the Butcher (which is where I found the description of Food Song, since it was omitted from the Gloranthan Bestiary write-up for Aldrya). I was looking for it in the main RQ3 rulebook earlier. Overall, I agree that it pairs better as the "red" complement to the "green" Food Song, and that Slaughter/Butchery be treated as the skill element of the ceremony. !i!

Ah, ha. I just found this brief thread on this very topic. I suppose what it really boils down to is, Karse and Refuge are really just names in the current canon that owe their origin to the freewheeling campaigning of the '80s. They are what they are now, and don't track at all to the old publications in any official capacity. Interestingly, my notes for a boomtown Sanctuary/Corflu track very closely to your notes for a Santuary/Refuge (though I linked the S'Danzo to political refugees from Fonrit). I hadn't made the connection between the Beysibs and the Waertagi -- nice; consider it borrowed. Don't like that Fournier map at all, though. Too many right angles -- ugh. !i!

I reckon it's an issue of the bargain established with the particular deities in charge. I've always interpreted Peaceful Cut as a ceremonial skill, very similar to kashrut slaughter. It doesn't require an expenditure of spiritual power to perform, but it does have a spiritual significance and effect, perhaps more to the corporeal entities involved than the gods on high. Food Song on the other hand...I guess Aldrya demands a little more investment for the return; perhaps it's a more direct negotiation with her as a goddess. !i!

For those of us fortunate enough to own copies of the excellent Thieves' World boxed set, what's the current "canon" position on the correlation between Sanctuary and Refuge in Esvular? Or, for that matter, Midkemia's Carse to Glorantha's Karse? Understanding, of course, that we're free to do what we want with non-Gloranthan source materials. In my Glorantha, I've added canals to Sanctuary instead of sewers and paired it to Corflu, which has become a masterwork of Lunar military naval construction c.1614-15. Instead of being rundown with age, it's boomtown ramshackle. Think of early-era Venice mashed with contemporary PRC island-building. !i!

You got to Rune-Levels before? I remember friends talking about their 20+ Level AD&D games, too. 😿 !i!

You'd have to play the game to find out. That's where the adventure lies. As I suggested above, though, it sounds like you're interested in playing Call of Cthulhu, not Nephilim. Which is fine -- I played a Call of Cthulhu campaign from the POV of the monsters a good half-decade before the publication of Vampire: the Masquerade. Shine on. !i!

A book that traces its origin to the early days of Chaosium, in fact! I enjoy the book thoroughly (almost -- Bonewits, for all his spiritual open-mindedness, regularly engages in needless temporal snark), but I've considered the prospect of employing his mathematical formulae in play too daunting. Honestly, I reckon that "authentic" magic(k)al practice has to rank close to "true" religion, which is doubly amusing within the context of Nephilim and the assumption that humankind is fundamentally living inside Plato's cave. !i!

Or perhaps the Great Race of Yith from "Shadow Out of Time" -- there are several potential angles. (And speaking of angles and trans-temporal adventure, how 'bout them Hounds of Tindalos?) So how would your campaign compare with a Call of Cthulhu adventure? In CoC, the action is typically Thwart & Destroy, where the monsters are categorically unsympathetic. In a Nephilim campaign, or even a counter-Nephilim game, the "monsters" may actually have humanity's best interests at heart, even if it may not be immediately evident. Taking the whole body possession issue off the table, how would your Fraternitas Saturnii players react to a potentially sympathetic adversary? !i!

Mee too! (because bandwidth is cheep) !i!

Here you go. Hours of fun-filled reading! !i!

Then logic would dictate that you wait until at least p.2 of the thread before revealing your actual MO of critiquing the production values. But I'm glad to see that someone turned you on to the Severe Severing thread. !i!

Oh. So this was actually the point you wanted to make from the outset. You should've led with that and spared the trouble of inviting responses. !i!

Really? I'm all tee'd up for that sort of thing when it comes to dealing with the divine... Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind: "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up your loins like a man, I will question you,and you shall declare to me. "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined the measurements -- surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?" ...etc., etc., as the Lord God goes on ad nauseum to say unto Job, "Who are you? You don't know my story!" I should think that in Glorantha, like in the original Testament, where the gods have more regular and consequential interaction with the earthly plane, they'll have more opportunity for individual responses to declarations and exhibitions of faith. Sure, you may be doing everything everything you're supposed to be doing, but now that you have my attention, are you doing it well enough? As a lowly worshipper with a lot on the line and variety of gods to cleave to, it might behoove one to shop around for an amenable source of magic. !i!

It may depend upon the eminence of the servant and of the degree of the fall from faith and/or grace. The higher the profile and the greater the fall, the more notice it will gain and the more severe the response. Orlanth has been known to be awfully petty on occasion. !i!

I had to blink a couple of times before I stopped seeing GWAR. !i!

I'm pretty sure this issue regarding Humakti has been addressed elsewhere recently. Upon initiating, one's existing ties are severed, but out of necessity they may form new ties, including to former hearth, home, and clan. They'll be different ties, though, approached via the new Humakti perspective. So you're right that Loyalties and Passions will all relate to Humakt, either directly or indirectly, but Humakt still has a vested interest in one's daily life. !i!

Halal isn't Kashrut. Yiddish isn't Hebrew. But that's a topic for another another thread in another forum. These digressions, however, might prove instructive regarding assumptions of generic or monolithic response from spirits of reprisal. !i!

Depending on who you talk to. But that's a topic for another thread in another forum. !i!