Joerg

How important is the character to her clan? As long as she participates with her cult (or as close an approximation as she can make), her efforts in re-making the world will amount to something, but her clan won't benefit from the resonance with the world she creates magically. On the other hand, the fact that she was sent to aid the other clan means that her clan either needs to work off an existing obligation or build up a new one that can be expected to be paid by the clan she is helping.# Such an obligation may be used on a heroquest, summoning that specific support (usually through an item taken along) to help with a challenge. Sometimes you collect that aid for a specific challenge, including crossing over in the first place, which is one stage where it is nice to have a trickster. If you can loan that trickster from that other clan, you don't have the trouble of him staying around with your clan for the rest of the time. Sometimes it is an augment for dealing with a guardian. In HQ there is a system called "lingering benefits" that you can collect when performing above the specification of a certain station in the quest. Now there is no guarantee that this specific station will play out like what you prepared for (that's the heroquest surprise rule, also shaped by the efforts of the antagonist quests which are bound to coincide with yours, often from unknown and even less expected angles), but on the whole it is better to come prepared and leave that boon unused than not to have the option of that boon. Sometimes it may be a ritual performed for your clan, at your clan, which the other clan is better at. Sometimes it may be diplomatic support in the interaction with a third party. This game of obligations is played on the clan leadership level, and your character may be told what is expected of her, but there is a chance that she is not considered to have the need to know. On a personal level, spending Sacred Time at home might be very important to that character, and you could make this a dramatic journey to achieve a last minute attendance at her home clan. Friedrich Schiller's poem "Die Bürgschaft" (don't worry, the link is bilingual) is a tale of desperation to arrive at a set time. Many of the obstacles are appropriate for a late Storm Season travel, too. A trip like this can be a memorable adventure.

Ethilrist? When he found out the nature of the emperor's gift, he served out his contract fully, then re-appraised his service and upped his price. Harrek. He quit quite spectacularly, too. And it will be fun to explain to the White Bear guy why you named your steed after him. Fazzy still is in the process of quitting.

And that's the story of "Sit here"...

So "recording their answers and only bursting heretical brains" is just going through the motions? Or is the questionaire an algorithm similar to the probe sent to Babylon 5, demanding replies to a number of hard questions and only refraining unleashing the demon if the pre-determined one and only truth pleasant to Theoblanc. Possibly requiring a certain inflection in addition to the one and only correct wording... Wait... demons? Performing the will of the Invisible God? I thought we were talking about the White Wizards? There is something fishy about this (and no, I am not talking down the Waertagi here).

In order to question them, they must have made the mistake to attend his tribunal, right? Theoblanc clearly made use of forbidden Vadeli (or Zzabur's) magics there. "It's a trap!"

That word after "and" is correctly spelled with "ath" rather than "v"...

So the First Wizard of Seshnela decrees the infallability of his office's decree, and Malkioni outside the military envelope of the Kingdom of Tanisor are supposed to be bothered? Even if something like this happened, I doubt very much that the decrees of that pony show will have any effect on anyone not voluntarily submitting to that God Learner-like hubris. Theoblanc does not have the power of the Middle Sea Empire behind his decrees. Yomili had no influence to speak of in Fronela or Ralios, and if Slontos still followed his decrees, that may have been out of lethargy rather than out of conviction, and Slontos still was part of the same empire as Seshnela, even if traffic between the Archduchy and Seshnela was blocked by the Closing and Halwal's activities. Seriously - did the previous Ecclesiastical Councils change the Malkioni magic or truth in any way? The last ones didn't do anything about Arkati magic or to save Seshnela from internal dissent. There is no such power as in the investiture conflict between Rome and the Holy Roman Empire. The King of Tanisor may push the agenda through by military conquest, but what other means can Theoblanc bring to convince local wizards or talars outside of Guilmarn's reach to follow his lead?

No - Shield has a Countermagic 2 effect, blocking a Dispel 2 or Dismiss 1 per point. While you can Dispel the Truesword with a Dispel 2, you need to boost that spell with magic points to bypass the Countermagic effect, leaving the Shield in place. And once you notice that the opposition uses Dispel or Dismiss, you can cast Countermagic on top of that shield (ideally for as many points as you need to overcome that Countermagic effect, which works against the casting of Countermagic or Repair, too). I am not entirely certain whether you need to overcome an opponent's POW in a POW vs POW contest to dispel a Fanaticism - the target of the Dispel is inside the wearer's aura, after all. By the same logic, a sword with a bound spirit that has POW will have such an aura, too, and that may have to be overcome as well.

On the other hand, there is a frenzy of blood-letting in Esrolia post Pennel-Ford, with rich pickings from the Red Earth Alliance houses (that may already have suffered on the way in). Defeated, but laden with plunder is better than defeated and barely holding on to one's shield. The good news is that you know pretty well where the bulk of the troops in Esrolia are, and while both sides of the slaughter are hostile to you, there will be opportunities to kill and plunder rather than ask nicely on the way back. The party might pick up a few Esrolians as guides and allies (read: additional PCs) to direct them to rich, soft targets. They might even already have one or two in their party. What authority could Guilmarn have this far beyond the woods? Not even Tiskos (which is of Rokari confession) acknowledges him as the direct superior of their prince. Estali pretty much shields the access to Maniria, and those cities on the lake are as hard to starve out by siege as Nochet when you don't have the superior fleet. Rist and Erigia. And possibly those tree stumps in northern Pent. And Prax. Possibly the Grazelands (thinking of that Wood Hackers episode mentioned in King of Sartar). The Legros Valley has a tribe of humans exhibiting all the qualities we expect from the ancient Entruli confined by the Arstola Forest, a model civilization for human behavior under aldryami overlordship. Did you mean the (former) Holy Country, or did you mean Dragon Pass (Kerofinela)? And western Maniria has its own dragonewts - the one unforested region that I am pretty certain won't be re-forested in a hurry. In the French edition of Nomad Gods, the spirit of Redwood was somehow co-opted into the Lunar spirits that the Sable Riders have an affinity with, alongside Bronze Treasure (Tolat, never Shargash) and of course the Twin Stars. Are you talking about Herilia (nowadays Erenplose), lost in the first Sinking of Slontos in the Gods War? The kingdoms of Herolal etc. appear to have been in early contact with the Serpent Kings via the eastward journey of Aignor's son. The expedition of the Vathmai established Lightbringer cults in a not that peaceful manner, but it also ended the Pralori overlordship. There is Basim on the other side of the watershed, too. They are caught between the Waertagi (and a Brithini army carried by them?) and the Tanisorans. Nolos is probably not defensible, but the Pasos islanders might be able to flee into the elf-dominated channels of Old Seshnela. If Aamor survives the betrayal at Brithos, this Man-of-All prince in exile might have the motivation, resources and contacts to harbor a fleet of refugees. Possibly on Ginorth, as the Wolf Pirates will be the major naval opposition to the Waertagi and their crusade against the Cult of Dormal (which they probably see as a continuation of the Free Men of the Seas?). Possibly on that coastal stretch just south of Erontree.

Distillation of birch pitch: at least fifty millennia, probably closer to 200. The Neanderthals were experts in this pyrotechnology, and the resulting pitch was the universal glue for just about any application that required sticking hard stuff together. Distillation of potable spirits: no idea who started that, and with what method. Chemistry alert: Temperature control without thermometers stuck into the gas is a bitch, although placing your wine or mash in a container that has the cooler attached inside boiling water, the temperature won't be enough to distil over too much water. If the cooler is allowed to run upwards a bit before branching off, you even have a fledgeling column effect, reducing the temperature for the stuff you collect at significantly below the temperature of boiling water. Using boiling salt water (with the side effect of getting purified salt out of the brine) may rise the temperatures somewhat if you have sophisticated means of heating that water. But tossing hot rocks into a puddle inside a skin will keep the water boiling, too. I haven't seen any suggestions for a paleolithic distillation apparatus, but a hollow bone or even a hollowed out branch might make a good cooler, and a suitably sized skull with the extraneous holes stuffed with clay or some sort of gourd might make a good vessel for the mash to evaporate in. Try and find archaeological evidence for such a method...

I don't think so. Boosting MPs dissipate once they have overcome whatever countermagic effect there may have been. But why limit your blade to just Truesword? Add a few points of Shield with the same amount of Extension, and any dispel needs to overcome that Countermagic effect. As soon as you recognize the opposition starting their dispels, have one of your spirits add a Countermagic to those points of Shield. The increased MP for the weapon make parrying with it a much smoother experience. Also - if you (plan to) have such a weapon, why didn't you bind a spirit into it? That spirit will resist enemy magic with its own POW as a second layer of protection in case the first layer (the Countermagic) has been overcome, as the sword is its body.

Each of the two Yelmalio settings that have been described in some greater RuneQuest detail have their alibi light lady of Yelmalio, although in case of Starnia Stormrender, she has rather few male rivals. "Devotee" translates as rune level. I wonder how many templars will be (biologically) female. Or is Vega just the only biologically female rune level in the Sun County hierarchy that openly identifies as female-gendered (i.e. taking on the female role in a marriage, risking or even welcoming motherhood - or at least a successful pregnancy)? What is the proportion of "covert females" in the ranks (including male-plumbed templars strongly identifying otherwise)? The templars are likely to have "sacred brotherhood" relationships with fellow templars. No idea whether these are monogamous or polyamory in nature...

And, as of today, Yahoogroups will be taken off the net. At the moment, the content is still available, but that might change when the date changes in Silicon Valley. Has anybody salvaged the World of Glorantha and HeroQuest RPG groups?

I wonder what kind of "The Lion Cub" story one might weave from the Solanthi. Hakkuna Mattata, anyone? Yes, there definitely should be heirs to the Pendali lineage, although every able-bodied male of weapon-bearing age should have been involved in the raid/mercenary business. The Greymane business has been the hottest investment the Solanthi and their neighbors have seen in generations, whether led by the old lion or his two sons Hardral (who sided with Broyan) and Varstari (who took Lunar silver). How much lion behavior do we want in the Pendali/Basmoli lineages? We know that Greymane has several wives, and that his favorite wife owns the farm where he would usually spend his time after the 1618 raid. We don't know anything about the mother(s) of Hardral and Varstari. Could be his favorite wife if he chose his favorite by her fecundity, could be other wives if he chose his favorite wife for her qualities as his hostess and entertainer inside and outside of the bed-chamber. Greg wrote a couple of lineages for the Pendali kingdoms, with the divine lineage descended from Ifttala unbroken by other lineages edging in - not even cousins with a similar lineage. But then, Greg distanced himself from those Pendali houses As to ancient Pendali culture: Do we have a pride of female queens supporting the strongest male as their alpha? This kind of social structure would be a form of polygamy where the females determine the membership in the pride, with the male acting as the genitor for their offspring and occasionally called in to aid in the hunt on extra-dangerous prey? But then, the Pendali and their distant heirs among the Solanthi aren't hunter-gatherers (with rather little gathering), but a nobility among pastoralist/agriculturalist subjects, acculturated themselves to such life. Tenants take the role of infertile wives in a pride - contributing to feed the alpha and the mothers of the pride. The Holy Country section of the Guide refers to Ditali and Solanthi collectively as Entrulings. But given Greymane's boast that even the Solanthi shepherds drink from golden cups after his 1618 raid, we can assume that while the boar and pig are playing a bigger role in their sacrifices than among the Heortlings, their agriculture is pretty similar to that of the Heortlings. I wonder into which direction the Arstola aldryami want to go with their magical seeds. Apart from the bottom of the river valleys, Maniria is pretty much forested already, until you come to Ditali lands and Longsi Land (where the Esrolian shepherds are strong). While the climate is a lot more clement, the degree of cultivated land appears to be similar to what Caesar and Varus found east of the Rhine, with too much bloody forest already. Not an obvious target for magical reforestation, rather a target for a takeover of a woodland council as in Umathela. The two big targets with unforested lands are Ramalia (which is adjacent to Tarinwood rather than Arstola) and Esrolia. Do the Redwood aldryami have any plans to participate in this venture, or does it require a forest with a Great Tree? But then, if Peloria is going to be subject to this, there a no such elf forests outside of Dorastor in Peloria, and the closest strong presence of aldryami are the refugees from Erigia in Rathorela who lack such a Great Tree, too. But then, the reduced fertility of Prax might be an additional problem for the Redwood aldryami, although it wasn't Chaos that destroyed the Redwood savannah, but the humans directing Oakfed against the trees.

I wouldn't expect many Solanthi to return home from that battle. Many would have been slain by an enraged Harrek Those who broke and ran may have been rounded up by cavalry on that wing, and may have ended up as prisoners waiting to be ransomed. As successful as Greymane's earlier raids may have been, ransoming back thousands of warriors will have been above the financial abilities of their kin, so many of the captured survivors may have ended up in slavery. If Greymane or any of his closest companions - including his sons - survived, then possibly as the result of a successful Divine Intervention, but an enraged Harrek might be able to interfere with even that. The Battle of Pennel Fort may have hit the western barbarians almost as badly as the Dragonkill hit Saird and Peloria.

You can have your cake and eat it: while the tribes existed in that place, dissident clans may have been displaced from the Alda-chur region and forced to take refuge in the Alone confederation. Where exactly did the information that they weren't originate? As far as my short research found out, Sartar Rising: Barbarian Adventures created this information. It was the first official product presenting such information on the tribes of Sartar, and its presentation was met with some disbelieve and criticism. Dragon Pass: Land of Thunder basically copy-pasted that previous publication, embellishing it here and there, and adding local detail. DP:LoT is one of several fan-sourced publications from the HW/HQ1 era. While this was a very nice acknowledgement of the Glorantha tribe which had kept the interaction with the setting alive, this publicized detail information where Greg Stafford had already created such detail info earlier, but due to the (temporary) loss of the master maps to this scale and their gazetteers, Issaries Inc needed to put out something, and this crowd-sourcing was an invitation for fans to let stuff from their campaign settings flow into published canon. I cannot say for sure, but I suspect that the information in Barbarian Adventures had to be created out of whole cloth as the previously made concise documents were AWOL The designers decided to up the ante, to set up the "rebels" vs "enslaved tribes" polarisation in that publication to illustrate the consequences of the occupation. I think they overshot that target... With Composite History of Dragon Pass their main document, the authors somehow cobbled together their list of tribes, and as Harvar's recent victory over the Righteous Wind was a lot more immediate than Terasarin's obligation to some Tarsh Exile refugees, the BA version saw print. TL,DR: The special composition and origin of the Tres may have been the product of losing Greg's detail info on Sartar. One thing that Barbarian Adventures and Dragon Pass: Land of Thunder did quite well was their section on "inns in Sartar". An inn usually is a hamlet's meeting hall, with the proprietor something like a thane in charge of dealing with assemblies, and with travelers seeking hospitality. I would suggest that they have tribal moot places away from settlements, on sacred hills or similar. Their tribal kings may have been on the itinerary between the clans, or even the clans' thanes, and have their administrative building in the city. Unlike with the Quivini tribes, that city was available basically from the time of creation of those new tribes. Tribal villages were built around the same time as the city was built. The Amad were more exposed to hostile interaction with the trolls than the other two tribes, so making a tribal stronghold may have had a higher priority for them than for the Bachad and Tres. I suspect in the maps analyzed by Jeff they were written as of 1621 or even 1613, if they are based on those master maps. Those numbers are now being taken kicking and screaming to the onset of the current timeline. From my experience working with Jeff, he is more likely to make an educated guess on such numbers than to start a spreadsheet calculating filters like losses from the Windstop, and recovery efforts, and return of folk from exile, to calculate these new numbers. I have some old notes that had 500 inhabitants per hex, each hex one clan, and exact hex outlines for each tribe (matching the White Bear and Red Moon map). I think that this kind of info led into the Sartar campaign, and into the creation of this finer scale map. WF15 is set prior to the Windstop, IIRC. People may have perished, may have ended up as slaves, or may have fled out of the Windstop area. The Torkani occupied that place before the arrival of the Bachad, and the Bachad may have acknowledged that prior claim of the Torkani.

Listen to that individual: sure. Believe everything that lunatic writes: don't.

This still leaves the tribal Yelmalians among the Aldachuri and the Dinacoli. Coming from Saird, these tribes possibly have been converted from Elmal for significantly longer while remaining Orlanthi rather than striving to imitate the Dara Happans - why else would they have fled from the Conquering Daughter into Dragon Pass? The Aldachuri accepted dissidents from Vanntar, possibly about some of those policies which make Vanntar into a variant of Confederate Louisiana.

Apart from that crazy dragon outline that was supposed to become the new dragon (one of the oldest "secrets" we learned about the EWF), becoming a dragon as individuals or groups appears to be the main goal of the EWF. Obduran is the only Orlanth-worshiper who managed to become a dragon and then to ascend even further. Ingolf had been pretty far on the way when he stumbled and used his draconic powers in an entangling way. Most of the leaders on the Third Council were "short cut" practitioners like Isgangdrang, whose method was a variation on the Immanent Mastery path. The Dragon Sun emperor of Dara Happa may have been a more conservative mystic, and Lorenkargatan/Labrygon and his goals remain a mystery. Great Lord Burin apparently was mainly interested in becoming a force of war, similar to Drang the Diamond Storm Dragon, the Great Dragon shape of Isgangdrang. Great Dragons were similar in shape and magical power to the True Dragons, but unlike those they weren't transcendental beings. It isn't quite clear to me whether the EWF ever fielded True Dragons or just Great Dragons (physically transformed mystics, or possibly entire mystical schools). Their enemies probably didn't care either way, in victory or defeat. King of Sartar mentions schools that advocated a communal ascension to Dragonhood, and if there were dragons born from the EWF who participated in the Dragonkill, then I will assume that these communal approaches must have been successful as they weren't exterminated in 1042. (Or alternatively, they were forcibly ascended in the mass utuma of 1042.) Or they were dragons born into a human shape whose limits they overcame by meditation etc. Godunya did teach in and meddle with the EWF before returning to Kralorela to deal with Shang-Hsa MHNBC.

Joy - or Henosis, oneness with the Creator - is the basis for Hrestolism even in its earliest manifestation in Year 2 ST. Hrestol's teaching basically is that there is more than the dour Solace which doesn't really promise anything as you decay by aging. (Which, incidentally, doesn't seem to be much of a problem for Hrestol himself as a third generation Brithini - both he and his sister were obviously born before the self-sacrifice of Xemela, which appears to have occurred a good while before the Dawn). But yes, apart from a few schools that may have formed from isolated Brithini colonies (looking at the Ingareens here), Henosis is a basic tenet that separates Malkionism from Zzaburism. The Ascended Masters are probably less common a trait than Henosis, and IMO henosis is still pursued among at least half of the Malkioni in the Kingdom of Seshnela. Just not confessed. Do the Rokari watchers have a Joy Division, and do they sound like love will tear them apart?

I think that they were meant to be the Warrior magic, Tailed Priest magic and Winged Priest magic. When the 'newts finally were published, their magic was no longer following the rules for rune magic.

I thought barbarians weren't dependent on that grey goo stuff inside their skulls? What is a secret, what is a long publicized former secret? Griffin Mountain is where the Wind Sword is hidden, and Balastor's Barracks may yield the axe of that champion of Pavis. Oh, and Baroshi may be found in the depths of Snake Pipe Hollow. Listing these here doesn't really make those scenarios invalid or unplayable. If you are discussing ogres hiding in human society and give examples, every such example will of course make that hidden group public. You cannot discuss these critters with examples without uncovering some secret. The topic is a spoiler all in itself. Yes, there are ogres in Glorantha, and that's how they work! Likewise we cannot discuss the Black Fang without spoiling them as something that has to be experienced before it can be researched. A certain Light Lord in Sun County is an illuminate? The son of a Citadel King in Balazar has been seen? Garrath Sharpsword is a descendant of Sartar? There is a giant baby on the Cradle? Pinchining is a Gold Wheel Dancer? All of this has been mentioned hundreds of times. I think I have found a way to warn of potential spoilers without having to do anything soon again... Can you spot it?

Despite that moonin' troll, night visibility in Glorantha can ignore the Red Moon. Gianni wants a dark night for his Kralorela games, and reducing the apparent size of the moon was his proposed solution, when the Red Moon isn't really the problem. That's something the Mongoose Second Age setting got wrong, too: Regardless of the size and phase (or even presence) of the Red Moon, Lightfore messes up a good night's darkness in a clear sky. Lightfore was even brighter and possibly larger until the Bridling of Kargzant (late in the first century ST), and it was his presence that made the difference between the Greater Darkness and the Gray or even Silver Age. Further East, the Sun Disk apparently never went away all the way, and only the Emperor (HeenMaroun/Govmeranen) left the world. Kralorela (and Teshnos) may have received more of the Greater Darkness than the rest of the East due to the neighborhood of the Wastes. Despite the apparent size of the Red Moon being roughly the same all over in canonical Glorantha, the intensity of the moonglow might diminish with the distance. The glow might interact badly with the draconic energies permeating Kralorela - Argrath's dragon magic even nullifies the Glowline effects. Voila, a lot less reddish glow from the west. And there is the possibility that a quest or huge ritual that weakened a specific deity may result in that deity's celestial representation being dimmed regionally. The eastern myths have a lot less to say about the death of the sun - they don't know or at least talk about that... Likewise, Lightfore might be dampened in Kralorela since Godunya took over again from Sheng. Having an imperial magic that dampens the influence of Kargzant is well within the capability of the dragon empire IMO and might be a precaution against another such horse warlord incident. My question about Shadows floating above Ignorance was another suggestion to get a pitch black night, or at least one a lot less bright than the Gloranthan norm. With that many demons/infernal antigods hiding under Kralorelan cities, there might be something like the opposite of the Dara Happan glowing city spheres in the sky, too. A sort of sunglasses effect.

The Brithini way probably is impossible, within Time. Mistakes are accumulated even if one goes on tiptoes to avoid them. Taking Brithos out of Time may have conserved a bit. Having an interface by which the Brithini can influence the Surface World (and harvest energies they don't create outside of Time any more) might mar that existence. The Rokari are using a God Learner scripture for their imitation of ancient Malkioni ways while condemning what that way was. I think that Godtime Brithela offered a nice and pleasant way of life, before the Ice advanced and the Vadeli ruined it all. The six tribes of the Logician men of Danmalastan followed each their intellectual challenge with sorcery derived from logic -- empirical experience (Viymorn), communication (Kachast), shaping (Kadenit), syncretic cogitation (Enro(l)val), external memory (Tadenit), and Sea (Waertag). Waertag's endeavor doesn't seem to be that intellectual when formulated like this, but maybe there was something else, less physical and more intellectual, at the base of his move to the sea. Perhaps Domination? The mastery over the Sea Dragons and the behavior of some of the Blue Folk of the invading waters in western Peloria point into this direction. Leaving the land in pursuit of this might originally have been little but a side effect. Or the Logician who did this was Wartain, a triton. When I was involved in an (aborted, very early stage) project to explore the Seas of Glorantha, I came across a theory that the Seven Kindred of the Merfolk each had one of the ten tritons as their ancestor, and that the remaining three tritons were the shaman, the priest and the sorcerer of the seas. The Wartain tribe text from Wyrm's Footnotes 11 was slightly altered in the Sourcebook, replacing the name Wartain with that of Waertag, with the funny side-effect that Waertag becomes his own great-grandfather (father of Warera, grandfather of Malkion, who in turn sired Waertag). A case of incarnation in the third generation (or a later one if there were generations between the original one and Warera). Deities can do this stuff, Zzabur the son of Malkion claims a similar pre-existence as an Erasanchula. IMO Brithela was home to King Drona, the boar earth king (son of Kala? Britha?) and friend of Eurmal, who left his ancestral lands for Fronela - possibly to escape the dictates of the Logicians. Possibly leaving his brother Dromal behind to do the bidding of the Logicians. Anyway, with the Dromal caste (children of Kala, led by Dromal, the son of Malkion Aerlitsson and Kala, a mountain goddess of Brithela), the Logician men tribes received a caste of brown-skinned workers to do all the material stuff. Malkion had three (or four) sons with Phlia, the Tilnta, and (according to the genealogies in Hrestol's Saga) two named daughters, which then married two of their brothers - Menena marrying the supernumerary brother who doesn't have a caste named after himself, and Eule marrying Talar. (Blame @scott-martin for inspiring this convoluted concept...) I have the impression that Malkion Aerlitsson provided a son each to all seven tribes of the Logicians for the founder to incarnate (or, in case of the female logicians, to marry their leader - for whom he provided a daughter to incarnate, anyway). Thus we get the branch of the family which Hrestol married into when he arrived on post-Dawn Brithos. Hrestol's Saga throws some confusion into the use of Holar for the Red Caste son and Horal as the husband of Menena, of the Talar caste although he is a (full) brother of Talar, and one of his son emerging as "Duke" of "Horalwal" on coastal (southeastern?) Brithos.

Maybe a Lightfore cult with special cases Yelmalio and Kargzant and mentioning others might be less problematic? The Planetary Son Reladivus that becomes known as Kargzant happens to be the south-eastern Son of Yelm in the Copper Tablets (with Nivorah somehow winding up north of Alkoth due to stronger meandring of the Oslir River on the tablet than on modern maps). Only three of the eight planetary sons survive Umath's invasion of the sky, and all are changed by it. Verithurusa follows Umath into the near underworld and gets pregnant by him, Shargash emerges as the Red Planet and dismembers Umath beyond reconstitution, releasing the sons of Umath as his heirs, and Reladivus becomes Lightfore, a troubleshooter in the changed world. Still separate from Antirius, BTW. Along with Star Captains, Lightfore leads many a retreat of the forces of light and life, in many different guises. Antirius remains as the lesser Disk above Raibamus, and has mostly vertical movement, sinking lower and lower. It accompanies the Emperor (or his substitute) to the Hill of Gold twice in its role as the wyter of the Empire, once in preparation of the Dara Happan Dome, once after that dome was broken. Lightfore Kargzant appears in the Gray Age and empowers Jenarong. In return, Jenarong established Lightfore's superiority over Shargash with his resources. Antirius is recognized as the Sun Disk returning at the Dawn. Lightfore remains in the night sky. This creates a dual existence for Kargzant and Elmal each of whom carries the sun Disk in his chariot during the day and roams the sky at night. No idea what the aldryami have to say about their Yelmalio, and Daysenerus (the Iron Vrok's Yelmalio) wasn't around yet. That entity may have been born during the 375 ST Sun Stop, and then broke the Compromise three years later at the Battle of Night and Day. Unlike Elmal, I don't think that Kargzant had a presence as the last light on a high place in the world (ziggurat, tree, or mountain). Or rather, I am not aware of any high place that could have held that light, after all the ziggurat of Nivorah had been destroyed by Valind's Glacier. (His light might have rested on the glacier? And then retreated north to Kalikos as the glacier was parted by the Chaos invasion?) Aldryami Yelmalio might have rested in the crown of the Great Tree(s), and Elmal is known to have maintained a weak and cold light on top of Kero Fin. (Actually aided by Inora?) Yet both Elmal and Aldryami Yelmalio also were active on the ground/among the Stars (as above, so below) during the Gray Age, just like Kargzant was as his only known manifestation. It remains weird.