Joerg

I have returned to take a closer look at Nochet because it is the setting for my work in progress about the burial of an exiled member of House Norinel in her ancestral family tomb despite being persona non grata. Discussing the waterways in and out of Nochet and out of the Antones Estates creates an alternative route which might allow bypassing the official guards (but will instead create lots of contact with the underbelly of the city inhabiting the waterways). I might even wish to loan some of your players' characters' contacts for this kind of approach. Having studied your extensive campaign background, I compared it with background info from my own adventuring in Karse. The character's background is that of a captain's brat whose family followed the captain to various stations, including a "preschool" childhood in the Dormali barracks/quarters of the City of Wonders, semi-orphaned life in Seapolis when the captain did not return from the Kralorelan expedition and an early assignment for an apprenticehood with a maternal uncle in Karse, where the character became involved in the ethnically segregated children's street gangs, which led to automatic contacts with that city's illegal underbelly as both the character and his childhood mates, rivals and foes grew up, and a new age group brought new contacts and mentors. I used Jenell Jacquay's Central Casting supplement for adding this background information to a RuneQuest character. The Street Gang theme inherited from "Welcome to New Pavis" and this friends/rivals/foes contacts scheme came naturally in order to explain the eclectic mix of skills and associations of the character. Such a street gang and probably dock rat background would be less likely for a good Esrolian child of a House or Hall, but being a good child isn't exactly the stuff a future adventurer is made of. The new RuneQuest Glorantha character creation adds details what your father/grandfather did in the great events leading up to the Now of the game. Creating a set of lesser local events - possibly drawn from the Regional Activity Table or an urban variant thereof - a character can have not just kinsfolk but also friends and acquaintances from other houses/guilds/tribes e.g. from the militia file or such youth gangs having undergone significant experiences in such recent events. "In a knife fight between the Sharks and the Jets (astonishingly appropriate gang names for Pelaskites and Adjustment Hendriki) two of your childhood gang members went down - one dead, the other maimed. You have been pumped for <information about certain folk in the Jets/a modest contribution to help the cause of your landsmen>." Such a situation could even affect a (mostly) law-abiding citizen, and even more so the kind of citizen who keeps contacts into less savory corners of society. Conflicting duties (to your kin, bloodline, clan, tribe, ethnicity) and other influences (patrons, dependants, allies) are the source of drama both in popular entertainment and in ancient myths and heroic poems like the Hildebrandlied.

p.26-27 Would it be an acceptable but sneaky way to offer a band of wanna-be raiders the hospitality of the clan? They would be oath-breakers if they carried through the raid after accepting the hospitality. (There is of course no compulsion on the invaders to accept the hospitality...) p.33 Mountain Giants (See p.XX) fix up page reference. A full text search didn’t yield any plausible result in 11 lights, though. The Coming Storm p.46 has the box on them. (Isn’t the term “Hecolanti” rather than “Hecalonti”?) p.42: The labels for side view and top view of the interior are swapped. No idea whether that can be fixed easily.

Questions about Nochet Urban Renewal Nochet around 1200 S.T. probably was at its all time low. Dragon Pass was still forbidden, so the river trade with the north was a minor factor even in Karse on the far side of the Shadow Plateau. Belintar's victory over Ezkankekko re-directed the Creekstream River from Karse to Nochet, at first without any impact on the city. By 1400 S.T. the fact that Dragon Pass was open again for trade did affect Nochet and even Karse. Durulz boaters provided goods by the riverine route, bypassing Grazer territory. Around the same time, the Grazers became both a trade opportunity and a threat to the North March. People from the North March relocated southward, and the walls of Nochet would provide a measure of safety the open border at the Crossline could not offer any more. I wonder whether there is a group of North March refugees maintaining something like a subculture inside Nochet. A group of New or Immigrant houses to Nochet. @jajagappa: I suppose this could have become a theme in your game if your party's house had chosen not to remain in Nochet after the Devastation of the Vent. What scenarios and time frames for a return to Nochet did you have in mind? - fleeing from Grazer aggression - fleeing from Caladran aggression in southern Esrolia - fleeing from increasing Ditali and Solanthi pressure - return from Rhigos after the Opening - returning as a minor House after being exiled from an Enfranchised House The walls of modern Nochet probably are the result of Belintar taking an interest in this most ancient and recently most populous of his cities. The 1200 S.T. map shows the bastions of Kimantor towards the Blackmaw in ruins, with the Antones Estates spilling over right up to the former river-bed (as shown in the Darkness Era map). Kimantor's Walls appear to have disappeared without leaving much of a trace already in the Dawn Age. If they were constructed from chalceous rock, they might have suffered the same fate as the majority of the gallic wall of the oppidum of Manching which were calcified for fertilizer in the late Roman period, or used as quarries for the Silver Age reconstruction or for the Antones Estates. The Citadel of Lord Victory Nightbrother which formed an urban center in Harmast's Era appears dismantled and abandoned after the Devastation of the Vent, with the Antones Estates claiming their area. Reversing that intrusion of the necropolis into the city of the living must have been a major upheaval in the Third Age history of Nochet, and would have coincided with the reconstruction of the city walls of Harmast's era (all of which are from the Silver Age or earlier). So, when did this reversal of Necropolis extension into Walled Nochet begin? Did Belintar rebuild the old walls of Nochet to prove himself to the Charter of Nochet? We know that he did summon Silver Age heroes to prove his claim on sovereignty, so why not have him set Panaxles and Sestarto (or their hero cults) at rebuilding the Nochet fortifications of old? Other than Belintar's influence, I don't see who could have made the dead relocate to locations outside of the Nochet Walls. After all, these dead will take an active voice when decisions about their whereabouts are made. The presence of oversized walls in Bruvala's era would have given some small encouragement for the city to be reclaimed from the agricultural use that followed the Devastation of the Vent. It would also stretch the demand of ginormous amounts of bulding materials over several centuries rather than mere 23 years between the Opening of the Seas and the Building Wall Battle, and 15 years since that. The presence of far too big walled grounds would also have led to earlier construction of features like the seats of the Enfranchised Houses, the Nolerian Baths or the scholars' town around the Great Library. I wonder about expat communities in Nochet even prior to the Opening. Phargentes' victory over Palashee Longaxe could have sent Tarshites into exile beyond the Wintertop Tribes, establishing a Hall and/or gangs in the city. Likewise, shipbuilders from Karse might relocate to Nochet now the lumber from Dragon Pass becomes available in addition to that of the Troll Woods. Orlanthi communities in Nochet: They cannot be all Sartarite, even though Sartarite refugees or branch clans possibly make up the majority. When and where did these settle, and how much resistance can chauvinistic houses make efficient against this influx of raw masculinity?

Many good comments were made in this thread: Personally, I would wish to separate this Bronze Age business from the usual suspects. The Iliad is an Iron Age epos told about the transition from the Bronze Age to the Iron Age. The Vedas are likewise epics of the closing Bronze Age of those cultures. Glorantha is technologically and culturally closer to a point in our prehistory where Bronze Age material cultures like the Urnfield or Hallstatt culture coexists with the early Iron Age cultures like the Etruscans, Hittites or Phoenicians. The Gilgamesh Epic has its twin which is located in the Gloranthan Storm Age (Gartemirus and Ekus). The Argonaut epic is both a thing of the past (Free Men of the Seas, various Storm Age sailing cultures) and an epic of the Hero Wars. Dormal's Journey is the Vita of St. Brennan or his old Irish model more than the Odyssey. The Tuatha de Danann are a thing of the past, even Finn and the Fiana are a Storm Age myth more than Silver Age reality, while Chu Chulainn is the stuff of the Hero Wars. Megalith structures are used by the equivalents of druids or Germanic sacrificers without any clue of their original function. Four pyramids overlook Gizeh while the Persian dynasty builds their grave tunnels into the rock. David and Solomon are Silver or Dawn Age kings rather than current heroes. Maccabean resistance against the Seleucids bears quite a lot similarity to the Orlanthi rebellion, if you can forget about their monotheism. Josiah's condemnation of Ashera worship fits with the Silver Empire of Seshnela. Thales, Pythagoras and the Orphists fit into Gloranthan history as well into Malkioni prehistory. Buddha isn't quite a thing of the Gloranthan east, even though those sages over there pursue a similar form of liberation. Belief in reincarnation is fairly universal, even Hrestoli sects adhere to this concept. I wonder how useful tossing about these mythical concepts are when addressing a millenial readership. Pop culture references might be better for a quickstart than assuming a somewhat humanist education (a concept dying out here in Germany, even my own quite good school education over three decades ago only brushed against that, whereas the people who studied for a high school teacher career when I pursued chemistry mostly were lost cases already in terms of humanist education). There are human cultures in Glorantha which are neolithic or even mesolithic in their outlook. However, there are also cultures with high distribution of literacy and open philosophical debate (Jrusteli of the past, Lunars) which far outpace anything Linear B ever supported. Bronze Age as applied to metallurgy is vastly misleading as well. Glorantha knows no steel (and there wasn't ever a time when iron wasn't hardened under formation of cementite). Bronze or brass as an alloy is the common metal for tools. Elemental tin and lead are traded. Whoever is able to produce metallic tin has all the tools to produce iron in our prehistory. Not so in Glorantha, where the metals corresponding to tin, lead and aluminium are molten from their ores with the same ease that copper is refined in our prehistory. Gloranthan godbones come as natural laminates and allow tensile strengths that far surpass historical bronze. Redsmithing is the art of creating poured bronze implements. Bonesmithing is about preserving the laminate in the shaping process, viewed from a materialist point of view. There might be heroquest side benefits able to transform cast bronze bones into godbones for the purpose of laminating. Note that I'd like to forward the idea that brass is magically different from bronze while being sort of indistinguishable when created from mixing the ores (though not for quickstart purposes). A brass godbone bears the signature of volcanic deities or brass mostali, a bronze godbone of Storm Gods. Other metals than these main metals exist, barely recognizable as metal, e.g. dragonbone or various darkness-related variants which may very well be alloys if melted down. Copper godbone items are superior to cast bronze items in metallurgic terms, too, in addition to being eligible for Rune Metal properties. I guess we are saddled with the Bronze Age label. I think it bears quite a lot explanation for not that much added value. More people will know about Greek mythology from Hollywood products like Percy Jackson or Clash of the Titans than will have read modern language adaptations of the Ilias or Odyssey, let alone translations of the originals into a modern language verse form. How elitarian do we choose to be? Our suggested reading lists are great, and could inspire future scientists of anthropology, archaeology or mythology/comparative theology, but playing in Glorantha shouldn't require a degree. It didn't in the past, although obscure expertise always has helped, and was promoted in the tribe. Given our target audience - US American roleplayers and anglophone international roleplayers - I would suggest looking for context relatable for customers in that market segment. This includes quite a lot of Old Testament references, eastern philosophical concepts as conveyed by popular manga or anime with some seriousness, concepts from US comic culture, where somewhat well distributed in translation French comic culture as well. Hollywood with all its mutilations of myths still provides easy references to the myths, and some comment on Glorantha in relation to popular or generic fantasy would be helpful, too. A list of topics for Wikipedia research or public domain editions of myths as research and inspirational reading shouldn't miss from the quickstarter. There's nothing wrong with making Glorantha an entry drug into research into something resembling a humanist education, rather the contrary. However, that's not a marketing strategy we should point at our customers, but rather at their parents or teachers.

Also, pigs are a common sight in the streets of Nochet, acting as the unofficial garbage collectors. They do leave some, let's say, fertilizing agent behind which might be collected by the Nochet equivalent of stickpickers, whether for vegetable plots or for tanning. Likewise the geese tend to leave lots of greenish fertilizer underfoot. Given the popularity of geese, I would expect ponds in Nochet, possibly artificial ones like in a Persian Garden. Because of said fertilizing remains, those ponds aren't good for drinking water, but may be good fish ponds or frog ponds in addition. Water tubers also can serve as supplementary vegetables. Talking about bodies of waters, I read your heroquest campaign over on rpggeek, and I wonder how deep below or how high aboveground the aqueducts of Nochet would be. From the map it looks as if the water is simply branched off the Lyksos River less than a mile or two upriver, and directed into the city through open canals outside of the city and through mostly underground, wide ducts or canals towards the cisterns. My interest in this topic is partially of a professional nature, too, as my work also includes inspection of and maintenance advice for water installations (besides measurements of water quality). Given the speciality of your campaign's House Lorionaeo, I guess you will have researched a bit about Vitruvius' De Archetectura and Frontinus' De Aquaeductu. It isn't entirely clear whether the water is simply pouring into the cisterns, or whether it is lifted up into above-ground reservoirs. From your description of the duty to carry or cart water from the cistern to the Temple of Delainea, I assume that there is no further system of water distribution to a more spread out infrastructure. If I had to design such a system, I would feed the cisterns by lifting water from basins the aqueducts lead through, in order to control whether or not to add water to the cisterns. Depending on the technological sophistication of Nochet waterworks, there could be huge, current-driven wheels dunking amphorae into these basins and emptying them somewhat higher into the cisterns - the Roman waterworks of London had such devices. I don't expect a network similar to that of Augusta Vindelicorum (aka Augsburg, link in German language but with a map) which has also plenty of current-driven paddle wheels powering its various industries like fullers, millers or (wood) turners (who could use the force with little if any translation, probably using leather belt transmission). I did a short research about the history of the waterways feeding Nochet. Sestarto and Panaxles obviously constructed their aqueducts in the Silver Age (neither of them lived to see the Dawn, AFAIK). The branched distribution most likely was established already for Nochet as of Harmast's Time, but much of that would have suffered greatly from the Devastation of the Vent (which also toppled significant parts of the cyclopean city walls). Modern Nochet is less than forty years old as of 1621. The western parts of the city had to be reclaimed from the expanding sprawl of the Antones Estate - the map of Nochet in 1200 probably was pretty much accurate for Nochet in much of Belintar's time, too. Much of the city grounds is given to agricultural use, which means that the rubble from the Devastation has been cleared away or recycled, and few if any ruins from the Imperial Age survived, or else their foundations served as garden walls. (The Lhankor Mhy temple probably didn't disappear, but parts of it may have been reduced to rubble.) Most of the infrastructure of Nochet is either restored pre-Devastation basements, tunnels and foundations, or rather recently built. This goes pretty much for its aqueduct and drainage system, too. The open canals outside of the city probably were easily kept in shape, and the core city would have relied on the Virtuous Waters cistern or its precedessors for most of the time of the Closing, and allowing the overspill from the river to flush the cloakas. From what I know about Harappa, the sewers are likely to start as covered canals along the main road (as in this excavation photo of Mohenjo Daro), mainly providing rainwater removal. Much like London's sewers in Terry Pratchett's Dodger, the ablutions and manure of men and beasts probably would have been collected and applied to farming, or left in the mud of the unkempt parts of the city for periodical cleansing commands in preparation of festivals (or cleaning up after them - Woodstock, Wacken or the Festival of Spears probably all share a very special soil mixture where there are no paved or drained roads). The roadside canals may very well drain into sea-level tunnels exiting among the islands southeast of the city. The Darkness Age map of Nochet probably gives us the best impression of elevations in Nochet. The aqueducts crossing the old river bed probably are elevated canals rather than underground ones. The river level must have risen significantly after Belintar drained the waters of Creek-Stream River into the Lyksos bed. (It looks like you have a corresponding event in your house history questionnaire, the building of the river dike.) This will have required alterations to the aqueduct inlets on the river. The new start for the city under Queen Valira may have given occasion to upgrade the intakes to a higher level, avoiding problems with cloaka seeping into underground freshwater leads. When discussing underground construction, there is always the question of the underlying geology. Given the proximity to the Shadow Plateau and the Vent, I would assume that Nochet and much of Esrolia will have tuff in its underbelly, a fairly easy to mine and tunnel rock made from deposits of volcanic ash. Above that, you would find fluvial sediments from riverine flood events and glacial-era loess soil carried here by the winds. And yes, that's bringing three of the best varieties of quality soil into a single place - there is a reason why small Esrolia can support such an enormous population. Much, if not all of that is of course the result of Esrola's or Ketha's marriages or marriage contests. Riverine silt and glacial clay (in North Esrolia) will be at the heart of Esrolian pottery and brick making. The fuel for burning the bricks probably is shipped in as charcoal from the outskirts of tastolar forest, carried on rafts made of construction lumber for the shipwrights and architects. Nochet will most likely have used quarries and forests in the Skyreach foothills for its reconstruction and expansion which may have begun by Queen (then Grandmother) Bruvala, but which exploded under Queen Valinyr as the Closing was lifted. The presence of tuff opens the way for opus caementicium aka Roman concrete, a technology which might have been imported by the God Learners or even earlier by the Waertagi (bringing in expertise from Sog City for construction of their piers), but which could have found its application in the waterworks of the city. Tuff also enables the establishment of underground tunnel warrens and artificial caves in the Antones Estates. Speaking of the Antones Estates - even if these are lying on a higher elevation than most of Nochet, that area is as much an urban sprawl as is the city itself, and it needs a well-maintained sewer system for rainwater unless you want to find your ancestral mummies visiting you and your house all soggy and moldy on ancestors' day. I wonder how many permanent living residents the Antones Estates sport - sewer maintenance, guards, sweepers, toshers, ratters, ghoul hunters and grave swappers (like grave robbers, but respectfully replacing valuable gifts in ancient graves by cheap and symbolic replica in avoidance of curses).

I had been referring to the map before, but I found it significant to link it to an emperor before the War of Light and Darkness. But it is the Dawn map in the Guide that makes a distinction - Lendarshi occupying a non-yellowed area north of the yellowed (horse warlord occupied/ruled) area of Lenshi. I'll have to scan in the maps of the original edition of TFS, the Dara Happan Book of Emperors - those were (somewhat low quality) scans of Greg's master map with the fifty year layers (although not all of those), and provided a couple more such layer informations than in the current edition of TFS with its redrawn maps. The Glorious ReAscent of Yelm pdf p.45, not TFS. It isn't clear whether the Pelandans are allies or subjects, and if allies, against whom. So the Ten Princes conquered or annected Pelanda? Or did the Pelandans simply become allies against the last Jenarong dynasty emperors?

Taking this discussion here, as it leaves the frame of the Dawn Age. Demigods are a different piece of cake, really. While divine in nature, they still have agency in the Surface World. While one may strongly disagree with a demigod, its presence doesn't mean a violation of the Compromise. IMO the Birth of Nysalor created a new reality within Glorantha, with its different magic. All the lands that had participated in the God Project (even the ones that broke away from the council) fell under this new magic. Birthing Nysalor himself was not a breach of the compromise, according to the description of the Battle of Night and Day in History of the Heortling Peoples (p.21). Daysenerus taking agency in the world was. Nysalor's self-revelation following the formation of Kyger Litor may or may not have been, but the compromise had already been broken. The Creation of Zistor isn't entirely clear on when the compromise was broken. History of the Heortling Peoples cites the battle of Steelfall, in which Renvald summoned forth Orlanth himself. Zistor appears to have pre-existed, but his participating actively in the battle may be a major thing (same as Nysalor taking an active part in the Battle of Night and Day). The Red Goddess had been at least a demigod since 1220, but it was the raising of the Red Moon from the Naverian soil which broke the Compromise. The Battle of Castle Blue had obeyed the constrictions of the Compromise, taking place on the hero plane rather than in the mundane world, but it had broken the last resistance against the raising of the moon. That act changed the world, visible to all the world. Now the Dragonrise of 1625 is visible to all the world, too, but dragons are both of the world and not. It was a momentus event, but not necessarily a violation of the Compromise. Neither seems to have been the return of the Boat Planet - other stars and planets returned in the Dawn Age without such problems, either. Less golden? Gold used to be the epitome of light. For the same reason people have tracked the sun's path since the Neolithicum - it provides the dates for seeding and other important annual events. For Glorantha, this doesn't mean checking the places on the horizon where the sun rises and sets - those are fixed year round - but the constellation the sun rises from or sets at. (At the solstices, these are the same. Which ones are they, or is there an ever so slight precession, possibly on a 54 year cycle?)

I have found Middle Air and Middle/Lower Sky used interchangeably. After all, while Umath displaced and reshaped the sky into a somewhat less than perfect hemisphere (if I look at the bulge of Dayzatar's Heaven), Orlanth went there and conquered part of it for himself. The absence of a Lower Sky (implicated by the term Middle Sky) indicates that that has become the realm of air instead. The interior of the upper hemisphere just below and above the original Entekos level is both Air and Sky, and can be named either way, IMO - the height descriptors may vary. But enough of such classifications - I still want opinions on the directon of the down vector when sailing the Celestial River and the consequences of falling into or through the Celestial River. The actual impression of heaviness or lightness would be a different question. A plummet into Skyfall Lake would just be following the current.

I am growing more and more convinced that Glorantha could find a new market with a weird, high rolling Outer World campaign, with trips into the sky, the near Underworld, underwater realms etc. Sailing up the Sky River features in both Sartar Rising and The Eleven Lights, however in both cases as heroquests. A tale like St. Brennan boating the Young Islands can easily be done in Gloranthan context, with Gloranthan cults from now and the past. Well grounded in the background, in wildly mythic, semi-out-of-context realms is a style of adventure that hasn't seen publication yet. The idea itself isn't new. In fact, looking at examples like the Githzerai and Gythianki in AD&D 1st ed Fiend Folio, this is a rather Old School approach. Which is very en vogue these days, so why not offer Glorantha-flavored outer world strangeness?

I didn't find the error thread for week seven, so I'm posting here. There are a few mistakes in the labels of the historical maps. The labels are searchable text, so maybe they might be corrected. Historical maps, Teshnos: Inzagril (265 ST, 400 ST) should be Iznagrli. In the 700 map, Iznagrli and Amtal labels have been swapped. 265 S.T. also has a wrong entry of Mralani in the Haranding lands.

Empowered water creeps onto the land, probing it for food. Water which has given up or lost its power falls down into a puddle, following the pull of both heaviness (aka gravity) if there is no slope, and the pull of the rivers to head towards the nearest strong source of Chaos. The Syphon River suffers from something like a inverse square distance rule being pulled to the Foulblood Forest.

There is a powerful laminar circular flow around the Inner World, called Sramak's River. The Waters of the World branch off from this rotating body of water, and inherit some of that property. The rotating eddies occur when a fast current touches a non-moving or much slower body (which can be of water). The spiral comes from the funneling because the maelstrom narrows towards the bottom.

I don't deny that there is a huge sphere of Naverian earth in the sky. I am just asking whether what we see on the surface really is only on the surface of the sphere, or whether it is somewhere else. It is probably both, and the "gravity" needn't be oriented to the sphere. As to Middle Sky, that gets only one mention in the Guide, indicating the height reached by the Jumpers. Which is the Middle Air. Now, where is the verdict?

Sure, but it might explain the weirdness and un-connectedness of the artifacts. The Gold Wheel Dancers appear to be some sort of larval stage to magical artifacts - they don't die, at some point they manifest themselves as artifacts. The Praxian Medicine Bundles might be some of them, for instance. The Elder Giants might be able to recall GWDs from this state in order to manage their cradles (though Gonn Orta used the one awakened by Urrgh the Ugly), and there might be unawakened GWDs among the toys and trinkets of the babies, and among the national treasures of many humans and nonhumans of the region. They are one of the Eldest Races, as old as Hoolar or Grotarons, and as weird.

Unless I am strongly mistaken, Deutsche RuneQuest-Gesellschaft e.V. aka Chaos Society will have a booth at Essen Game Fair, and would be a logical place to meet for folk involved with The Design Mechanism as they are the German licensee of Mythras. Presence by proxy might be possible. Other manufacturers of the D100 family might have to make themselves known before - the game system fits the society's portfolio somewhat. Maybe just establish contact.

Only the speculation that their artefacts are transformed Gold Wheel Dancers of earlier generations. Seri-phy-ranor was only a half-blood Gold Wheel Dancer and a leader of the Dorastans. I don't think any full-bloods were still around to make the identification.

IMO the "Mralani" next to Esrolia are a case of mislabeling. "Mralotheni" aka Harandings would fit the region. Not sure. Reading ahead, the region is the seat of an acceptable dojo of the Herespur philosophy ("everything is permitted"), which might be similar to the "discovery by destruction" theme under that name in Dune. We encounter such philosophies in other popular culture settings, like Mr. Niska in Firefly. The Inzagril kingdom (or whatever) of western coastal Teshnos doesn't get any text mention in the Guide. I thought this would be a blend of Kereusi and Orlanthi bullishness, elevated to a kingdom. Possibly bear influences, too. Another (belated) form of not-quite-any-more Hsunchen giving the tone for a civilization, IMO. I am not sure whether the Fronelan Orlanthi ever separated Vadrus' kin out of their central pantheon the way the Kerofinelan Vingkotlings did. The inclusion of Vorthan shows another "Violence is Always an Option" tendency, whereas the influence of the Earth Queen on the rulership appears to be a lot lesser than further south.

Not all of it Elf Forest, but basically lots of forest with occasional clearings. Less so north of the Rockwoods - the forests expand eastward in the second century. It might be a rough awakening of the forests that went to sleep in the Lesser Darkness, to conditions many of the trees aren't adapted to. Only a minority of trees or other plants were active in the Lesser Darkness and in the Gray Age, and possibly neither dead nor alive/awake during the vagueness of the Greater Darkness. The plant realm knows a competition and selection at least as sharp as the animal kingdom. Good enough doesn't ensure survival. These changes may have been much harsher than any human, troll or dwarf deforestation campaign could have wrought. The aldryami density cannot have been that great in territories outside of the influence of a Great Tree. Compate Moino and the rest of Laskal, or the Taluks of the Pamaltelan mountain chain, or Dragon Pass during the Inhuman Occupation. These historical maps are political maps first and foremost. Forest reduction and expansion is documented elsewhere in Greg's master maps, and I think not consistently. (It is a problem similar to the application of historical maps to the German North Sea coast - whenever you see modern coast lines in maps showing Roman, Saxon or Viking movements in the region, you are lied to. The problem is that we can only guess at the real topography of that time.) That is an ecological loss. A much colder climate, much less precipitation, and axe-wielders (you don't get treestumps without those, but the harvest may have been post-mortem). Territory previously unoccupied by other dominant species (humans, trolls, dwarves) now get associated with their civilisations. Why do you think so? Jorestl's Forest is alive and well in the Imperial Age map of Seshnela (p.411). It survives the Sinking of Seshnela on numerous of the Pasos Isles. Neither Kanthor's nor Jorestl's Forest ever disappeared, they only lie in territory claimed by the Silver Empire. The Hsunchen do well in light forest with occasional clearings - even Galanini cope well. The change arises when these Hsunchen begin to follow not-quite-Hsunchen life-styles. In the Greatwood, you might want to blame the Kachisti influence for Hsumchen temple ciities and experiments with horticulture, finally agriculture. The dominant "Hykimi" tribes of the Dawn Age West are similar to the Sable Lords of Kostaddi - living as much a Hsunchen life style as they can while lording over sedentary folk giving tribute. Neither Pendali, Enerali or Enjoreli are Hsunchen nations. They have a Hsunchen aristocracy/warrior class which gets assimilated by either Malkioni or Theyalan culture, retaining only part of their former identities if they choose to submit to the foreign influences, or they retreat into the shrinking wildlands protected by the Aldryami, only to re-emerge when Malkioni and/or Theyalan civilization is weakened. I see basically a failure to adapt to changed circumstances as main theme in the first two centuries. With specialisation for quite different environments, the ecology undergoes a change similar to the forest death e.g. to the bark beetle which depopulates non-native (non-adapted) generic industry plantations while barely affecting residual native (highly adapted) forests. The aldryami and their forests are time travelers, having missed several centuries of desolation, and a world awakening to much different conditions than when they went to sleep. Even Great Trees might be unable to cope with some of those changes. The Pelandan city states lose their cohesion in the second century and drop out of the cultural focus for a while before the Dara Happan dominant culture includes them. When zooming in, you would still find agricultural areas where the humans have much activity, only the unclaimed pasture gets overrun by forest if not actively cleared. Agriculture and especially pastoralism becomes much harder work as the forests expand. This, too, might be a case of weaker, less suitable precursor species replaced by aggressively expanding, better adapted ones. This doesn't even have to be hostility on the part of the Aldryami.

Of course they don't - all things fall through a medium (air, water, fire, darkness), or they float up. No point in dismantling physics here. Terminal velocity implies a constant vertical air flow (of whichever size or direction), which would be extremely rare on Glorantha. (At least outside of the Windstop.) I wonder how many Orlanthi know the "Baby Orlanth saves Baby Yinkin" feat. Basically, Orlanth called winds to counter the fall of his half-brother he just tossed out of their cave a the top of Wintertop Mountain. (The story doesn't tell, but I wonder if their half-sister Inora had already taken to redecorating that place...) Don't toss that concept out yet. Equal things still attract - fire is attracted by the Sky and the Sun, Darkness by the Underworld or the Night Sky. The tides are attracted to the Blue Moon, while the broken pieces of the Earth cube apparently isn't. Earth's attraction to itself hasn't closed the chasms caused by the Breaking of the World yet. The Mostali project reconnecting Slon with Jrustela wouldn't be necessary otherwise. Everything is pulled towards entropy. In Glorantha, entropy is a place, at the bottom of the hemisphere of Darkness, and it is called the Chaosium. It is also an event horizon where new things enter the Cosmos. The Red Moon is a very special case. Sedenya is the power of Reflection (and Balance). We know that we see a red-and-black orb up there in the sky, but it is entirely possible that what we see up there is just a reflection of the hole left deep in the soil of Darsen, walled up by the Crater. I am 100% certain that the Crown Mountains on the moon that circle off the top side which is never seen from the ground look exactly like the back side of the Crater mountain range. At least in my Glorantha. Air is the rebel element. Of course it will resist anything on first impulse. I don't feel that you would pass through water when falling down the Hellcrack. I am not sure the story about starving to death holds any water, either. If you look at the comparable situation inside Magasta's Pool, you have Halfway Island where the refugees are in a Schrödinger's Cat stage between being in the world of the living (where people have to eat and breathe) and the Underworld of the Dead (where people don't). At some point during your fall into the Hellcrack, you will enter the realm of the dead, obviating the need to eat or drink (though not the desire). As you pass through Earth, entering the Darkness Below, your fear of falling (or of impacting) will grow, and your fall will be prolonged, raising that fear... unless you get snatched out of that state, I guess you'll continue plummeting. In the Underworld, it is possible to tunnel from Genertela to Pamaltela without having to cross one of the chasms. That's because even when you don't enter the realm of the Dead in the deep below (e.g. exploring Mostali tunnels or walking the Fish Road beyond Deeper), you are entering the equivalent of a hero plane or outer world. Gravity or at least the sense of down on the Celestial River is a topic which is likely to enter your game if you play either the Sartar Rising campaign arc or The Eleven Lights. When you travel up the Sky River, the flow will be from the edge of the world towards the Pole Star, and down on the other side. As you travel up the river, you pass between the sword constellation and the constellation raven. Which one will be on starboard? The Sword? The shore of the celestial river will be the boundary between the celestial water and the celestial land. I doubt that there will be much celestial earth on the land, although there might be some sort of equivalent. If so, it will probably vary in behavior from surface soil - it might very well carry flame. Thanks to the power of Reflection, the Red Moon is both up above and down below, IMO. Possibly very far below, even beneath Darkness. The inside of the Crater is uncharted territory. I still haven't seen any opinion on what happens if something or someone flies across that mountain range. I suppose the Crimson Bat can do this, but I wouldn't wager on many other large flying monsters able to do that. If a true dragon ever had done so, we might have heard about it. Sheng's Lionbirds might have, but they are likewise very out-of-this-world entities if they can. The verdict is still open whether it is the Middle Air or the Middle and/or Lower Sky that you reach e.g. when climbing Top of the World or Kero Fin. It is possible for Orlanthi, Helerites and native creatures like Cloud Leopards or Zabdamar to walk or swim the clouds or fogs. There ought to be demigod folk up there (at least on some hero planes) navigating the ultra-thin layers of clouding between different layers of air. Those layers may be torn by raging waves imperceptible from below, or there might be calm zones where both layers move in unison. And there ought to be scenarios about getting there and interacting with such folk. One of my favourite features of the Eleven Lights quest in The Eleven Lights is the stage at the port which connects Lorion's and Sramak's rivers. There ought to be really weird characters and groups, possibly of the duck/troll/centaur/dwarf/three humans type parties, populating such places. Adventures where bits of Gloranthan myths gather like flotsam and jetsam, creating the weirdest tangles and combinations - and all of that within canon. You could go to that place and sail against Lorion's current, probably towards a region of dead moons, or planetary bisexual sons of Yelm hovering between life and death. There ought to be plenty stranded Jrusteli there, and other people trapped in timelessness, cursed to never being able to return. Lots of weirdness, all of it with backstories anchoring it in the past of Glorantha, whether recent or ancient, remembered or forgotten. I do question, though, why the Great Port should be located in the west. IMO it should be attached to the Sky Dome, and rotate all around Glorantha once a day, as does the Sky River. This ought to make it rather stable in relation to Sramak's River, which ought to circle around Glorantha in roughly the same direction, unless I am mistaken. (IIRC the sun path as trodden by Lightfore describes a strange trail in the night sky, curving up to Pole Star in a rather narrow curve up there and curving down again, intersecting the ascending path (at least on a solstice). Mastakos/Uleria outpaces the rotation of the Sky Dome by a factor of three, all other bodies but Yelm and Lightfore are way slower and form weird spirals, or even weirder trails if following the Soutpath and never reaching up to Pole Star. To switch back to the original topic, this Outer Sea/Edge of the Sky Domes area has quite a few options for a "down" direction. If sailing outward from Glorantha on a ship, whether across the White Sea or some other weak current seas like Banthe or against the Doom Currents (not directly atop them, rather using the eddies they create on their side which may promote movement against the general current, much like the Ducks do for upriver shipping on the Creekstream River), one approaches the towering ring of Sramak's River. It could be like a bulge in the water caused by the increasing speed of the outer river, or it could be like the edge of the water in a glass that is shaken into a funnel inciting a centripetal motion in a limiting vessel (in this case the Sky Dome). Both variants are true at the same time, IMO, so you could sail up into the sky dome "plane", up onto the unending expanse of the outer ocean beyond the (inner) Sky Dome, or even out onto the Hell Sky and the surface sailed (swum, whatever) by Annilla. Whichever way you go, the surface of the water that you choose sailing on will define your up and down. (The choice may well involve sailing into a maelstrom and finding the right moment to leave, with failure to do so resulting in a broad selection of increasingly unpleasant alternatives to visit. The maelstrom will have two general downs - one the current is taking in its funneling spiral movement, and the other perpendicular to the surface of the maelstrom wall. After a number of revolutions in such a maelstrom, any sense of the previous up and down will be lost, especially if the "down" of the current twists and shifts.) But: where do you go if you happen to get pulled under while traveling such a not-quite sea? Will you be able to swim/dive, or will you fall through once you get too far from the surface defining your up/down, and in which direction? Sailing the celestial river, your "up" might face the Inner World, or it might face the Golden Dome of the sky beyond the blue-and-black dome of the stars. (Which reminds me - how does Night enter the sky? A wave of darkening emanating from the Gates of Dawn, or a general fade-to-black effect slightly retarded above Rausa's Gate?)

Actually, that debate doesn't even attempt to define gravity, it only fields a few theories and observations, and then discusses a crackpot theory how Glorantha could be a planet like Earth, and why not. The Underworld consists of Darkness, as does the border to the Chaosium. The logical conclusion is that the people, demons and other denizens walk on solid Darkness when they don't float/swim/transsubstantiate through it (no flying dow there, IMO). Really little different from the movement of earth elementals through the soil. Does there have to be a "you" to be loved? Heaviness is a type of Earth magic, and I think it is a form of mastery rather than harmony. At least in Thunder Rebels it used to be an aspect of Ernalda the Queen. though tied to the ordinary earth rune. While Kadone's magic is specifically described only for storm flyers, I don't see why she should not be able to affect low-hanging stars, clouds, or waves. Mostal made it. The Spike points up, the reverse direction is down. Those directions don't have anything to do with heaviness, though, and I doubt strongly that there is an inverse square law defining a distance between the Red Moon and Glamour where gravities cancel out. Trick question - could an Orlanthi be attracted to the Red Moon, or would he be repelled? Is it possible for flyers (whether human or beast) to move between the Moon and the Crater? Can clouds? Or is there some mystical barrier pushing every flying thing around the Crater? What do you see in the Crater when standing on the moon, looking down on Glamour? The Void? A reflection of the surface of the Moon? Both? Is the Moon hanging between Earth and Sky a matter of attraction, of repulsion, or of balance? On the matter of involuntary self-beheadings in battle (which made me snort, too) - are archers, slingers and spear or pike-armed troups affected, too, or is this limited to axe- or sword-armed warriors? And has anybody, ever, played an entire battle as round-by-round combat between individual RuneQuest characters with at least full combat stats? (Given the simulationist spirit of the rpgs in those times, I wouldn't think this impossible for a battle between clans or similar sized forces.)

The sun passes almost directly overhead, even in winter. It always rises and sets exactly in the east and west. Stars hardly rise or sink except for those close to the horizon, most stars are visible all night long. The tides (tied to the Blue Moon) creep in slowly about twice a week but ebb dramatically fast. (Tidal waves exist, they are closer to small tsunamis.) Tides are stronger wherever one is closer to the constellation "River" in the sky. There are no months, the Red Moon phases over a weekly cycle. (The Blue Moon isn't visible for long enough to discern whether it phases, it climbs the sky outside of the Sky Dome.) The year has 1/6th less days - a harvest can be somewhat shorter than on earth without threatening famine. Rivers and at times even seas don't necessarily stay flat in their banks, but may resemble a jellyfish tendril of flowing and eddying water. The Syphon River in Heortland which flows uphill is such a river for most of its length. Plants, animals and even places may be sapient, able to speak, or to form humanoid bodies at will. Most aren't, but you might always be in for a surprise. Mountains and cliff sides rise way higher than you are used to. Magic is real, and often can be discerned by giving off light effects or other changes to the natural world around it if strong enough. Magic is required to keep the world alive - up to two weeks a year all Gloranthans perform simultaneous rites for the rebirth of the world at the shift of years.

The chaos label sits somewhat loose for a number of hell-spawned or evil cults (note that these need not overlap, even though few things out of hell are really palatable to surface dweller sensibilities). The Orlanthi accuse the Lunars of being Chaotic. Some certainly are, but a majority of the illuminated Lunars aren't - their exposure to Chaos is about the same as a deep quester on the I Fought We Won quest experiences. (Note that most Heortlings drop out before getting that deep on their initiation quest.) Plant life has different reactions to insects and fungi. Most trees rely heavily on a symbiosis with soil fungi for gathering up their nutrients, and I am inclined to make this a mystical truth for Gloranthan botanics as well. On the other hand, only flowering plants rely on fertilization through insects (or birds or fruit bats). The rot of humus is a cooperation of all kinds of Darkness effects - fungi, invertebrates, even plant diseases that continue to putrefy the plant cells after the death of the plant. The result is the source of life for the plants, though. Insects like the bark beetle, caterpillars and other such larval stages are mostly detrimental to their host plants, and so are a great number of fungi. This makes them evil to the aldryami who care about these plants. Gorakiki is also the deity of bees and butterflies, creatures we would associate with sun and fertility, but these critters undergo the maggot phase which is a Darkness existence par excellence. The Pavis project was strange indeed, and uses Green Age magics, and re-invokes the Unity that was forged by the fight against the Surface World Chaos. The main protagonists of that project were slain or enslaved by Praxians when Adari was raided, and only the prime product of this research, the young man Pavis, was left to discover more. A strong enough Harmony influence can calm conflicts even between arch-enemies. No idea if it could get Storm Bull and Wakboth to sit down for negotiations, but then either participant in that conflict is strong in an antithesis of Harmony (Disorder for the bull, Moral Evil and Chaos for the devil).

These maps have been compiled from Greg's impressive master map on transparent paper. There ought to be at least 17 layers of historical maps, spaced at 50 year intervals. The earliest edition of The Fortunate Succession had numerous scans of a layer of these maps and the basic geography for Peloria. These maps are how Greg traced his history in his world-building at Chaosium. The political maps of the now might be considered an eighteenth such layer. The bad news is that such maps exist only for Genertela, and I suspect that the Kralorelan and Teshnan map information might have been an addition when the Guide was compiled. There simply are no such maps for the rest of the world. Yet. I would really like to work on a project making such maps and lots of other thematic layers available as a digital application, possibly with pdf export options. However, that would be a full-time job of more than a man-year for getting that data together, never mind the application infrastructure.

I think that Harmast's first Full LBQ was almost accidentally correct as he assembled lots of fragmentary reports on the quest into his template, which was spiked with his earlier heroquest interactions with Jajamokki. Upon meeting and accompanying Arkat, he may have learned the substitution technique for his second run, which took only half the time in producing Talor. Harmast was in all likelihood an intuitive heroquester - he survived the Orlanth initiation when all other candidates were slain. The Baths of Nelat are one way of preparing oneself for the Flame of Ehilm and the acid baths mentioned in the illustration of the previous chapter. From the list of Harmast's quests, Harmast never undertook this one, but his very initiation troubles might have prepared him for this stage of proof. Both Arkat and Talor cursed Chaos in a way that it became permanent - Arkat affixed the chaotic mess that is Dorastor, and Talor cursed the Telmori to become ravening mad beasts on full moon (the chaotic nature of their gift may have come already from Nysalor, or it may have been revealed as such through Talor's curse). Yelm's resurrection was what gave us Nysalor in the first place, and Sheng is an entropic force of his own. Note that Sheng was no ordinary LBQ reward - Argrath could have chosen something milder, but his insistence on Sheng sent him further into deeper, Lunar (or Chaotic) hells.

Elf invasions usually go hand in hand with rapid expansions of forests, but given the location of Laskal, an invasion starting with mangroves along the coast is a possibility. Invention of the Elf Gallegas is often credited to Errinoru, who wasn't born yet. I looked for the overland route because this has the closest group of aldryami. The dubious to misleading praxis of naming parts of the jungle coast Elamle is found in Revealed Mythologies, too, especially p.49. RM p.53 evidently is the source of this date: 36 is a reference to a footnote: Now this entry reads like it was Elamle human elf friends who invaded Laskal and imposed a variant of their Oath of Elamle on the Banambans. This would mean that - especially western - Banamban culture has Maslo influences. The elf friends may have done so under obligation to their elf hosts, an invasion team of seeders of which possibly accompanying them, or local yellow elves from Moino. The Gargandite Glorious Ones who reversed this "conquest" in 600 don't seem to have minded which humans exactly they enslaved. Garangordos passes through Laskal or emigrates from there 22 years later than the aldryami conquest. We have only vague information on the origin of the humans of Laskal (other than the Fiwan of the region). IMO the majority of the non-Fiwan humans are of doraddic descent, possibly brought here as slaves of Chir or the Artmali Empire, or immigrating following the destruction of the Greenwood of Jolar. Thinobutan-descended "Agimori" (a term resembling "Dara Happan Warerans" in terms of actual ancestry) would be the major other source, with little if any remnant Artmali blueskins. There is a concept that the Pamaltelan continent (except for the coasts) develops backwards in time. Dinosaurs would be a more recent addition to the fauna than miocene mammalian megafauna, and the hunter/gatherer/oasis farmer culture is more recent than the urban high culture of Tishamto. We know that the hardy hunter-gatherer men-and-a-half which ended up in Prax left when there still was a land bridge between Pamaltela, Abzered and Genertela. They must have been quite progressive if they lived according to that life-style already back then. Or their culture may have changed somewhat in step with that of their Pamaltelan brethren, or had always been their rural or military elite life-style. Closer to the coast, the doraddic-descended Agimori become more sedentary and urban, up to urban men-and-a-half in Deshmador (the only place in Banamba unconquered by either the Gargandites or the Pujaleg). Still, this 478 invasion seems to have set things in motion for all of Fonrit. I note that the 580 date for the Seshnegi in Umathela comes from the same source, but is also found in Missing Lands, with a mistaken attribution to Nepur during Nralar's reign. I don't know whether I would have gone for the year number or the reign of the king as the deciding fact @Jeff, what was your main reasoning for deciding such discrepancies?