Jeff

I wrote both of those sections and not only are they not incompatible with what I have written in RQG, but I wrote them with the goal of getting to this point. Greg and I talked at length about the treatment of Yelmalio in RuneQuest and I know he was fine with it. For the purposes of RuneQuest, Elmal can (and will) be treated as a local variant of Yelmalio. Same thing with the elf variant of Yelmalio and the Pentan variant of Yelmalio. A worshiper of Elmal can go to a Sun Dome Temple and contact his god (i.e., replenish his Rune Points). A worshiper of Yelmalio can go to the temple at Runegate and contact his god (i.e. replenish his Rune Points). To make things more confusing, Elmal is often a title of Yelmalio, and Yelmalio is often a title of Elmal. The Elmal variant says Yelm is the father of Elmal, but sometimes calls the Sun Disk Elmal and sometimes calls the Sun Disk Yelm. The Yelmalio cult does the same. <As an aside, the Yelm cult never calls the Sun Disk Elmal or Yelmalio and can draw much more substantive powers from the Fiery Sun than any of the Yelmalio variants (who only get Sunspear through the Yelm cult).> That's the similarities. There are some magical differences between the variants. The Yelmalio cult takes on all sorts of strange geases to get gifts from the god, the Elmal does not. Elmal is associated with Orlanth and not with Yelm. Yelmalio is associated with Yelm and not Orlanth. In play I don't think it doesn't make much difference. If someone from Sartar wants to play a solar worshiper they can. Their choice is basically establishmentarian (Elmal) or dissenter (Yelmalio). Mechanically the only differences are associate cults (Yelm or Orlanth) that the Yelmalio worshiper gets gifts and geases and fights with pike and shield, and the Elmal worshiper does not. Socially the Elmal character can insist that the Yelmalio worshiper is "doing it wrong" or "taking it too far", and the Yelmalio character can insist that the Elmal worshiper "values tradition over the gods" or "values tribe over the truth" - but as far as the rules are concerned, they are worshiping variations of the same god. Same thing happens when an Tolat worshiper from Melib comes to Alkoth and meets the Shargash cult (Tolat and Shargash are presented as variations of the same god).

Those who say Yelmalio is the Sun Disk say that Yelmalio is the light emanated from the sun. Yelm, his father, is too distant to hear our prayers, but Yelmalio hears your prayers and comes to your aid.

Yep. The Sun Disk is also Yelm. Who is the Sun Disk who rises and falls each day. The Bright Sun, the Imperial Sun, revived with Time to be guarantor of the Cosmic Compromise.

It really depends on what you mean by "same". And I don't mean that facetiously. As for repeating the God Learner mistakes, I don't see anyone doing that - although I do see people regularly making the errors of Plentonius (who is a far more unreliable narrator than most good God Learners).

Jason and I are planning to put one together soon. But we have a lot in our INBOX right now.

Which is why we also make the plain character sheets available. Some people like plain sheets, other people like fancy sheets. The answer is BOTH.

Yep! And we have even more plans along this line.....

Good catch - that was a bad cut and paste. It should read: Antirius is normally worshiped as a subcult of Yelm and not as an independent cult.

Chaosium has no plans to bring out any new Magic World materials.

Which is also why many Elmal cultists accept that Yelmalio is a mask of Elmal and vice versa. You all may do with Elmal as you want - as far as the official version is concerned, Elmal has the same basic Rune magic and spirit magic as Yelmalio (which shouldn't be surprising). Elmal does not have Sunspear or Fireblade or Firearrow - despite what *I* wrote in SKH (and if we ever update SKH I will definitely fix some overly broad description I included in that book). The biggest difference is that Yelmalio has gifts and geases and Elmal does not, and Elmal is an associate of Orlanth, while Yelmalio is an associate of Yelm (and other Sky Gods). Also Yelmalio temples train their members in Pike and Shield, and Elmal temples do not (although they may have in the past!). If we view Elmal as being the cult of Yelmalio restricted to those myths where Yelmalio aided Orlanth and Orlanth's people - as seen by Orlanth and his people - we can see the contours of the Elmal cult. We can also see why Monrogh's revelation was so broadly embraced (and if we look really carefully we can even see why the House of Sartar would support his revelation). For the Elmal initiate, Monrogh's revelation meant taking a gift and a geas from the Little Sun. And also getting a whole series of additional stories about your god that supplement but do not replace the first story. Your god gets a promotion, you get a cool gift, and the other Sun Dome Temples will teach you superior fighting tactics. Those who refused to accept the "sequels" (I think of them like fans of the original Star Wars movie, who refused to embrace the broader story elements in Empire Strikes Back) had community reasons for doing so. Yelmalio is not associated with the Lightbringers, which means his temples are not going to be supported by the tribal Orlanth cult. Where Elmal is the tribal patron, that's not a problem but for tribes like the Colymar or the Cinsina, it means your temple needs to stand on its own. That's a social problem, not a mythological one. So even though most Elmal cultists embraced Monrogh's revelations, a few rejected it. Ironically, one could argue that makes Elmal the "purist" and "reactionary" cult.

A raiding party of Ostrich Riders is much stealthier than a bunch of bison or high llamas. It is all a matter of context.

Worth looking at the Heortling version of the same (GSB pg. 117): "Elmal was a son of Yelm who became Orlanth's loyal steward. When Orlanth departed on his Lightbringers' Quest, he named Elmal to rule the world while he was gone. Elmal defended the last flickering lights of the world against Chaos and was wounded, battered, and weakened many times. Yet Elmal never faltered, and he survived as a last light in the Darkness until Orlanth and the other gods returned with the Dawn." Same mythic event, just seen from a narrowly Orlanthi perspective (as is the version presented in SKH). What Monrogh saw was that event was part of the greater Yelmalio myth.

As an aside, you can fit almost the entire Heortling Elmal story in the above paragraph.

Elmal was not a false construct but merely a part of the whole. Like Orlanth Adventurous is part of Orlanth.

Good points! I think that is a by product of the different sources. Here's the current Mythic History of Yelmalio as it appears in Gods and Goddesses: Yelmalio was born when Yelm was murdered by Orlanth, as a blindingly bright glare of magnificence which radiated from Yelm like light from the sun. He became known as the Little Sun or “Yelmalio”, although he has been given many other names and titles. Confronted by a broken world, Yelmalio remained true, though it cost him dearly to do so. During the early wars in which mortals supported their gods, Yelmalio led his people from the warm lowlands into the cold hills, carrying high the magic and power of his father. He protected Ernalda, Yelmalio fought against the growing Darkness; he swore to protect many so that they might survive the Gods War. Yelmalio did not always succeed. Among those he swore to protect was Ernalda the Earth Mother. Orlanth stole Ernalda from Yelmalio, so Yelmalio struck the Three Blows of Anger, killing three air deities, but he never regained Ernalda. At the Hill of Gold, Yelmalio was disarmed by Orlanth, fought Inora to a standstill, and then he was ambushed by Zorak Zoran, who stole his fire powers. The Cold Sun fell and bled out his life-giving heat and power upon the Hill of Gold. His favored weapons of bow and sword fell also and were absorbed into the knowledge of the whole world. However, he did not abandon his oath to protect those under his care. Wounded, robbed, and hounded from place to place, Yelmalio carried the spark of life throughout the Darkness. Frozen, limping through the leafless forests, the glow of Yelmalio gave hope to the elves and humans who clung to the light. Yelmalio’s wounds did not deter his struggle or weaken his resolve. He joined with the High King Elf and others to fight against the relentless approach of chaos. He became the Last Light, the strongest god of light in the Great Darkness. Yelmalio fought fiercely in the Great Darkness, and even aided Orlanth, who grudgingly settled their feud. When Orlanth departed on his Lightbringers’ Quest, Yelmalio defended Orlanth's people as well. Yelmalio survived the Great Darkness, and the sky overhead was sometimes a distant grey color, and then the stars reappeared. Yelmalio grew stronger and became larger, and the survivors crept out of hiding to offer thanks. He wandered about the sky at first, to better aid the survivors, but eventually adopted a constant path. Yelmalio greeted the rise of his father, the Sun god Yelm, at the Dawn. Since that time, Yelmalio has lived in the mountains and hills, and even the staunchest Orlanth worshipper admits the presence of the Son of the Sun. Yelmalio provides his light even when and where Yelm’s Sun Disk is absent.

Once upon a time, Greg and I played around with some models of what percentage of your character's time could and was being spent on various tasks - sleeping, fornicating, family, clan duties, occupation, rituals, meditation, dreaming, etc. It was neat and fun, and totally impractical for game rules. Needless to say, it left a LOT less than 8 hours a day for training.

If you are going to authoritatively say that a god possesses a given spell, yes. If you are going to say you think that a god should possess a spell, no. David quite authoritatively said, "For example: Elmal is able to use the spirit magic spells of Fire Arrow and Fire Blade. Elmal has the spells Shield from Orlanth, and Command Horse from Redalda. He is also associated with Pole Star, under the Orlanthi name Rigsdal, and receives the spell Star Sight." etc. Now maybe David intended to say, "For example, let's say that Elmal is able to use..." But as it is, a reader can very easily assume that is what the rules have said. Which they largely don't (although Elmal does get Shield from Orlanth). Jeff

David what RQG material are you basing this on? If the answer is none (which I am certain it is), perhaps you shouldn't speak so authoritatively. Jeff

BTW, in case it helps, here is a section on the Many Suns that appears in the Yelmalio cult writeup in Gods and Goddesses: THE MANY SUNS There are several solar cults who are often identified with Yelmalio. These are sometimes treated as independent deities, sometimes as different names for Yelmalio, and sometimes as subcults of Yelm or some other solar deity. These cults resemble Yelmalio’s cult in most respects (including spells) but rarely offer gifts and geases. ANTIRIUS This subcult of Yelm worshiped in the Lunar Heartlands shares a substantially similar mythology to Yelmalio, and Second Age scholars viewed Antirius as the Dara Happan version of Yelmalio. Antirius provides Sunbright. ELMAL Elmal is a variation of Yelmalio found in Kethaela and parts of Dragon Pass. The Elmal cult resembles Yelmalio’s cult in most respects (including spells) but does not have gifts and geases. Elmal is associated with Orlanth, Ernalda, and Hyalor cults. He receives the Shield spell from the Storm King instead of Yelm. After Yelm was killed by Orlanth, Elmal settled his feud with Orlanth and swore to serve him. When Orlanth departed on his Lightbringers Quest, the Storm God named Elmal to rule the world while he was gone. Elmal defended the last flickering lights of the world against Chaos and was wounded, battered, and weakened many times. Yet Elmal never faltered, and he survived as a last light in the Darkness until Orlanth and the other gods returned with the Dawn. Although Elmal was initially worshiped as the returned sun by the Dawn Council, in the later First Age his cult was largely subsumed into that of Yelm or Yelmalio. Only in Heortland did his cult survive intact. During the early Third Age, the Heortland was isolated from Peloria by the Inhuman Occupation of Dragon Pass and were part of the Shadowlands ruled by the Only Old One. When Dragon Pass was later resettled by Heortlanders, they came into contact with the solar cults of Peloria and the Elmal cult was thrown into turmoil. During the reign of King Tarkalor, the Sartarite hero Monrogh the Founder revealed that Elmal was a mask of Yelmalio. Most Elmal cultists joined the new Sun Dome Temple that Monrogh founded in Dragon Pass, although some remained with their traditional tribal cults. Elmal is perhaps best thought of as that part of Yelmalio that loyally aided Orlanth and defended his people during the Darkness. Yelmalio is that part of Elmal that was a rival of Orlanth. They are different names for the same entity. Yelmalio is now the more popular name, but Elmal is still invoked. KARGZANT Kargzant is a Lightfore cult worshiped by the Pentan nomads. His cult resembles Yelmalio’s cult in most magical respects but emphasizes Riding and replaces Pike skill with the Lance skill. Kargzant is even more closely associated with the Pentan Yelm cult (called Yu-Kargzant) and with the Hyalor cult, and has the Command Horse spell. He is also associated with Polaris who provides Arrow of Light. As with Elmal, Kargzant does not have gifts and geases.

Yes. They are a minor tribe and always have been.

In the Far Point, the native god was called the Golden Spearman. In the essay in WF14, I called the Little Sun cult that serves Orlanth "Elmal" and the Little Sun cult that proclaims its own independence "Yelmalio". Of course, both names are anachronisms and are used more consistently by us scholars than by their cult. I am sure Yelmalio gets called "Elmal" at the Sun Dome Temple in Sartar, and the temple at Runegate calls their solar deity "Yelmalio".

I wrote the Guide and regularly consult it on all of this. But on such matters the Guide is wafer thin. Here's all the references: Pg 33: One of the seats in traditional Orlanthi tribal councils is the "Elmal" seat. STILL CANON. Pg 37: Elmal the Sun God is a minor deity of the Orlanthi. STILL CANON. Pg. 152: Elmal is listed as the Orlanthi sun god. STILL CANON. Pg. 160: A picture is detailed as Elmal carrying the Sun. STILL CANON. Pg. 188: Runegate has a temple to Elmal the Sun God (also in RQG: Gamemasters Pack). STILL CANON. Pg. 236: A Second Age panel of the Lightbringers has Elmal as the Sun Stallion. STILL CANON. Pg. 646: This is the only problematic section in the whole guide: "The Sun is worshiped in some form by most peoples in Glorantha. Yelm, the Dara Happan Sun God, is the most widespread name given to this god, and is known in many lands outside of Peloria. Most Orlanthi say that the Sun is Elmal, a thane of Orlanth, while in Pent it is Kargzant, the Horse God who was a rival of Yelm when the Pentans ruled Dara Happa in the First Age. In Teshnos the Sun is called Somash, in Kralorela it is the celestial representation of Emperor Vashanti (who ruled during the Grey Age), and among the Doraddi it is called Varama, one of the sons of Balumbasta." I admit that is not as carefully written as I wish. If I were to edit this paragraph I'd have it read: "The Sun is worshiped in some form by most peoples in Glorantha. Yelm, the Dara Happan Sun God, is the most widespread name given to this god, and is known in many lands outside of Peloria. MANY Orlanthi say that the Sun is Elmal, a thane of Orlanth, while in Pent it is SOMETIMES Kargzant, the Horse God who was a rival of Yelm when the Pentans ruled Dara Happa in the First Age. In Teshnos the Sun is called Somash, in Kralorela it is the celestial representation of Emperor Vashanti (who ruled during the Grey Age), and among the Doraddi it is called Varama, one of the sons of Balumbasta." To be honest, I am not troubled by the Elmal part in here (I should have said "many" not "most" but ok), but the Kargzant stuff is really misleading. Kargzant is Lightfore not the Sun. But ok, I am sure most Gloranthan scholars make mistakes about that as well. STILL CANON, but SLOPPILY WRITTEN. Pg. 720: A reference to Elmal's arrows at a First Age battle. STILL CANON. In comparison to those 8 references to Elmal, there are 35 references to Yelmalio in the Guide.

A Gloranthan season is 8 weeks long. It takes two season to train a characteristic. The idea that Gloranthan characters are going to spend 7+ hours a day doing strength training is just not realistic to me and certainly makes no sense as a rules default.

Yu-Kargzant is Yelm, Kargzant is Yelmalio. Kargzant appeared before the Dawn, Yelm appeared with the Dawn.

You need that temporal connection to the god to replenish your Rune magic. It isn't like doing a bunch of Hail Mary Mother of Gods and counting rosary beads. This is like Shabbat, a day of magical energies tied to the deity.