Jeff

David - I am perfectly aware that you want to play zzaburi in your way, even if that is not how we view them functioning in Malkioni society. A mostly-Malkioni campaign is likely going to be entirely different from a game set in Dragon Pass, the Holy Country, Prax, or Peloria. Wizards act primarily in support of the other castes (usually by casting long-duration spells on others), or are casting long ceremonial magics (so that they can increase their chance of success). Is that "as viable a PC as a Lhankor Mhy sage"? That depends on the campaign. Certainly a 21 year old zzaburi is going to be pretty unskilled. A Man-of-All is going to juggle trying to administer, protect, and learn - as magicians, they are going to likely be inferior to their Rokari counterparts; as soldiers, they are likely going to be inferior as well (at least initially). They are meritocratic dilettantes - likely identified at a likely Guardians at a young age, and then those with the most potential are trained to be Men-of-All (hopefully they pass their exams). I think a Man-of-All in training would be a wonderful character - a Platonic Guardian trying to protect and defend the community, while learning philosophy and sorcery. But initially, they aren't great sorcerers. And they don't need to be - the Loskalmi believe their strength is their rational social organization which promotes justice, virtue, and enlightened administration. With the conflict with the Kingdom of War, and the initial sharp defeats, the Loskalmi must quest for weapons and magic to use against their foes. New Men-of-All are raised based on fighting prowess more than spiritual development. Who knows - maybe things even get desperate enough for the Wizards and Lords to make offerings and sacrifices to the Gods of War and Death, in order to fight the avatar of War and Death?

One thing to keep in mind - pretty much all Malkioni use a God Learner "vocabulary" even if they reject God Learnerism. The New Hrestoli were pretty much created through experimental heroquesting (particularly Snodal's quest to the Altinae, the murder of the God of the Silver Feet, and other actions taken to thwart Zzabur's predictions). If anything, the New Hrestoli are now "practical God Learners" who have used many of their methods (although this time for good, of course). I'm sure that in the conflict with the Kingdom of War, we are seeing even more of that.

Like studying the Vedas, learning sorcery is intensive, costly, and can only be done by experts. And imagine that - Malkionism has determined that the only rational way to organise human society is into castes, so that the smallest caste is able to study and practice sorcery. Amazing how that works! The zzaburi don't tend to tolerate cults that provide alternative ways of social organization - but letting a group of loyal soldiers worship Lion Man or a bunch of workers worship Master Stone Man is not usually seen as a problem. Worship of aristocratic ancestors is probably better than Ascended Masters, but that is still more harmless than the great gods. And of course everyone worships the Invisible God. Workers, soldiers, nobles, and wizards - everyone worships the Creator.

I've been experimenting quite a bit with the West and with Malkionism, and I find it works just fine. However, the Malkioni don't deal with the world of magic and mythology in the same way that other Gloranthans do. They try to understand how things fit together, and then work to exploit that to their benefit. In most Malkioni societies, it is the zzaburi (or whatever their equivalent is) that handle sorcery. They serve as the "priests" for the Invisible God, for the Ascended Masters (where worshiped), and for some other entities. They hand out the magical blessings for the nobles, soldiers, and workers, while at the same time do not engage in any of those tasks. Only among the Loskalmi do the zzaburi have practical familiarity with the other castes. Think of them as Neo-Platonic Brahmins, with a near monopoly over sorcery and you are on the right path. Ancestor worship is big deal among the nobility. Illustrious ancestors are worshiped, and are a source of magic. These ancestor cults often have a zzaburi who performs the rites, but needs to have the nobles present and involved (since in most cases, they are the ones with the blood connection). Think something like Daka Fal, where folk are worshiping the state founder (Jonat Big Bear, Gerlant Flamesword, Talor the Laughing Warrior, etc.). The Rokari dislike this try to restrict this, but given that some of this is by their own protectors and guardians, exceptions are made. In some places, we have totem worship, where Animal Gods are still worshiped for their magic. The zzaburi are not involved. Even among the Rokari, this is tolerated (but confined to the Soldier caste). This is mostly spirit magic and some Rune magic. Among the Workers, there are lots of little cults, minor spirits, you name it. Most of this is just spirit magic. And then there is practical God Learning - sending folk into the Hero World, boosted by as much sorcery as possible, to take magic to be used by Men. The Rokari are very reluctant to do this, the New Hrestoli do it all the damn time.

Yeah I am curious as well.

Here's another version of the same story: In 1624, Argrath mustered the White Bull brotherhood to him and together they summoned Jaldon Goldentooth and an army of Praxians. But instead of attacking Dragon Pass, Jaldon followed Argrath east towards the Lunar city of New Pavis. Once again, the nomad host met the Lunars and their Sable Rider allies at the oasis of Moonbroth. The White Bull Brotherhood had gathered Bison Riders, High Llamas, Impala, Pol-Joni, Pavis Survivors, and Sartarite adventurers and exiles; this time it was the Lunar army that was defeated. The Sable Riders submitted to Argrath White Bull; the Lunars retreated to Pavis and prepared to defend their city. The Lunar defenders fought hard, and levied such terrible losses that the only survivors among the assailants were heroes that day. But the few successful warriors had planted the seeds of defeat upon the wall, and the next day the eating things had cracked a segment in the north wall so that it nearly all fell to dust. The Granite Phalanx charged through the gap but were destroyed by Argrath’s new Sable Rider allies. The proud Praxians charged through the breach led by Narmeed Whirlvishbane, of the Bison Tribe; Yazurkial Blue Llama, of the High Llama Riders; and Roneer the Hue, of the Sable Riders. All of the Lunar soldiers were executed or enslaved by order of Yazurkial Blue Llama. Argrath White Bull was proclaimed King of Pavis.

Let me go back to the original post: In 1626, Pavis is ruled by Argrath White Bull, who has been acclaimed King of Pavis. After the Second Battle of Moonbroth, in late 1624, the defeated Lunar army retreated to Pavis where they prepared to defend the city. When the nomad army arrived, the Governor and his household fled but most of the soldiers stayed. The assault on the city used Jaldon's magic to bite through a section of the city wall. What then happened follows what happens in most captured cities in warfare. The Marble Phalanx, Silver Shields, and Antelope Lancer regiments lose their standards and their soldiers are killed in battle or taken prisoner. Obviously rich people got looted, and a lot of collateral damage happens (like in the neighbourhoods the Lunar soldiers retreated into). Argrath got acclaimed king, was acknowledged by Lord Pavis, and rules his city while holding his army together and investigating magical secrets. He tries to invade Dragon Pass in 1625, is defeated, and then invades again in late 1626, early 1627, leaving behind a garrison and a viceroy. By 1626, a lot of the damage from the fall of the city in 1624 is likely repaired or at least patched up. The Flintnail dwarves are happy for a chance to work, and stone and clay are plentiful. Some neighbourhoods are still heavily damaged but trade with Dragon Pass is restored, caravans again cross the Long Dry, etc. Argrath has established his court in the old Lunar governor's palace and after the Battle of Queens, delegations from Sartar try to persuade him to return to Sartar to claim the kingdom. There are Lunars still in Pavis. Most are slaves, some are crafters or other skilled professionals, and some others practice their religion in secret. Some of the inhabitants are now nostalgic about the peaceful reign of Sor-eel (I doubt any have nostalgia for the corrupt regime of his successor Halcyon), but the Empire is gone and not coming back. The nomads have the liberty of the city, but are held in check by Argrath (who also raises the Pavis Royal Guard).

Most ceremonies have armed guards that prevent outsiders from watching - that's a big part of Humakt and Babeester Gor's role in the community. Non-initiated children are children. Sex with not-adults is considered rape by most Orlanthi and taken very seriously. On the flip side, the Orlanthi don't place a particularly big value on sexual fidelity, what with Year Marriages, the Uleria cult, fertility rituals, polygamy and polyandry, etc. Greg had a story about frustrated the young men were after the Evil Year and Orlanthi initiations were stopped for 8 years after the Evil Year. You had men in their mid-twenties who were still legally and socially "children". Men ran away to the Storm Bull cult to be initiated (so they could have sex) or even committed crimes. A terrible time.

It takes a lot of resources, a lot of time, and a lot of commitment. Very few communities can afford financially and magically to do this on an annual basis. Its as big an event as the Sacred Time ceremonies.

Hyalor is an associated cult with both Yelm and Yelmalio.

Among the Orlanthi, kids are not permitted to participate in adult secrets. Not sex, not magic, not killing, etc. On the other hand, they learn to fight, to help the adults plow, harvest, craft, hunt, etc. You get some very frustrated 18-year olds, and some very happy 14 year olds.

Once every three years or so.

No - girls are taken to one set of initiation rites headed by the Earth priestesses and wise women. Boys are taken are taken to a different ceremony on a different day at a different place, to one headed up by the Storm Voice and other Lightbtingers. The focus of each is different. Most boys end up initiated to Orlanth, but some take a different path - Storm Bull, Issaries, Eurmal, even Nandan. Girls mostly end up initiated to Ernalda, but some take a different path - Issaries, Eurmal, Maran Gor, or even Vinga. Their path is different from the boys, even if they end up in the same place.

Serious competition? I don't think adulthood initiation is some kind of "cult marketplace" - rather people choose/are chosen by deities as part of the rites. Most Orlanthi are claimed by/choose Orlanth or Ernalda, but a few end up being dedicated to Maran Gor or Babeester Gor or Yelmalio or Storm Bull or Trickster or even by none (and thus follow paths like Daka Fal or even Horned Man).

They might also emerge from the adulthood rites dedicated to some other deity. Most emerge as initiates of Orlanth or Ernalda.

The Red Goddess revealed Herself directly to the Char-un way back in 1228 at the Battle of Seven Horses. The battle gets its name because she captured that many magical steads from under the Pentan leaders. One contingent of attackers was virtually annihilated by a dazzling array of magic from the Goddess; two others wasted themselves upon fixed Lunar infantry squares on a hilltop, thanks to the manipulations of the Lunar mages. The last contingent, the Char-un, was fixed into place first by spells, and then by enchantment at the spectacle of their allies' destruction. At the end of the day, the Char-un warriors swore loyalty to the Red Goddess in the most demeaning terms, virtually offering themselves in slavery to her. She accepted and shortly afterwards, these horse nomads moved close to the Lunar lands, shielding the eastern border from the other nomads. They grew quickly in strength, thanks to Lunar money and training, and were loyal allies through the whole period of the Goddess' stay on earth. The Char-un worship the Red Goddess as their patron and lord. They "belong" to the Her (not the Red Emperor, but Her). They don't worship Her as a mare or whatever - they know Her as the goddess that defeated them utterly and swore loyalty and fealty to her. No revelation was necessary - they witnessed the raw power of the Red Goddess personally.

KARGZANT Kargzant is a Lightfore cult worshiped by many Pentan nomads. Before the Dawn, Kargzant was sent out from the Underworld by Yelm to travel through the broken world to find the lost pieces of light, spark, and starlight, and bring them back together. Yelm sent along many Star Captains to aid Kargzant in his quest. Kargzant prepared the world for Yelm’s return. The Kargzant cult resembles Yelmalio’s cult in most respects (including spells, gifts, and geases) but emphasizes Ride Horse and replaces Pike skill with the Composite Bow and Kuschile Archery skills. Kargzant is even more closely associated with the Yelm cult (called Yu-Kargzant) than Yelmalio and is always closely associated with the Hyalor cult. He is also associated with Polaris who provides Arrow of Light.

Going back to the RQG rules: GENDER Gloranthans have a range of concepts regarding gender identity. The Orlanthi recognize four sexes (biological male, biological female, neither, and both) and six genders (male roles, female roles, females in male roles, males in female roles, both roles, neither roles). They recognize at least seven types of marriage. There are several polyandrous traditions and polygamy is not unknown. Many Orlanthi heroes married to Ernalda priestesses also have had male lovers (often of the same sex and gender). Their only serious taboo on sexuality involves those that have not been initiated as adults. Nonetheless, some cults are restricted by sex and/or gender. ----- So the Orlanthi would understand most Vinga cultists as "biological female" (as that is based on plumbing) but in "male roles" (because they are are a warrior society). Vinga does not require celibacy nor restricts childbirth. Babeester Gor cultists are also "biological female" in "male role" and also does not require celibacy or restrict childbirth but does prohibit acting as a mother. Maran Gor cultists are "biological female" (or "neither" in the case of eunuchs) in "female roles" BUT she does require celibacy for her priestesses.

Actually the Char-un are Pure Horse People. They herd horses only. The Voor-ash are a confederation of tribes and include Storm Pentans, Solar Pentans, and Pure Horse People. They herd cattle, and even bison and other beasts. I've even heard rumours of them using Praxian mercenaries, although that could have been the confederation that fought at the Nights of Horror.

The Char-un, Grazelanders, and several other Pentan tribes are Pure Horse People. The Char-un pantheon is: Yelm (called Yu-Kargzant or Kargzant the Sun). Their cult has Yelm the Youth, Yelm the Rider, Sun Lord, and Yelm the Priest. They also have the Golden Bow shamanic subcult. Dendara/Ernalda. Yelm's wife. Not as important as among the Grazelanders (who since the FHQ worship Ernalda and not Dendara). Yelmalio (called Kargzant or Lightfore). Not particularly important for the Char-un, but very important for the other Solar Pentans. Eiritha. Not important to the Pure Horse People, but very important for the other Solar and Storm Pentans. Polaris. Worshiped by many Pentans, including the Char-un. Hyalor. Worshiped as part of the Yelm cult. Hippoi. Worshiped as part of the Dendara cult. Red Goddess. Important mystery cult that teaches Illumination. Yanafal Tarnils. War god of the Lunar Empire. Popular amongst Char-un. Jakaleel the Spindle Hag. Important shamanic cult. Oakfed, aka Envirinus the Sacred Fire. Popular among the Char-un and other Solar Pentans. Worshiped as a spirit cult. Unlike with the Grazelanders, the Lightbringers are not important gods for the Char-un. I sometimes think of the Grazelanders as Earth+Lightbringers (together that is about 68% of their population) worshipers with a Sun worshiper aristocracy (20% of the population). The Char-un are going to be much more Yelmic. Maybe 35% of the population are Yelm cultists, 35% Dendara, 20% Lunar, and 10% the rest.

At this point, I have no idea what is even being argued about. Bring this thread back to discussing Vinga, or lets shut it down.

Vinga is a small cult. Babeester Gor is a small cult. Maran Gor is a small cult. Maybe 3-5% of the population belongs to these cults. Of those, only Shaker Priestesses are celibate. Vingans or BG cultists may choose whether to have children or not, only BG is required to give up the child to the Earth Temple (although Vingans certainly might). None of these cults are likely to threaten the demographic stability of the local population - except through their main activity: war. As for the multigenerational aspect of the game - if you don't have any offspring yourself, you can always play another member of your kinship group. Time passes and characters die, but you don't HAVE to play your own offspring. Even in Pendragon.

There is no female incarnation of Yelmalio at all.

Our belief - shared by Greg as well - is that in the ancient world loyalty is BOTH a passion and a quid pro quo. It is not a free-standing thing floating around in the abstract. One is passionately loyal to Argrath, but also reasonably expects that loyalty to be returned. If it isn't, there's a problem. Or I give gifts to my retainers because they are loyal to me AND I give those gifts because I am loyal to them.

You clearly haven't worked with lobbyists or big law firms then. You'd be amazed how much a big value contract makes everyone loyal to each other.