Jeff

Given that prior to RQG there were only two RQ books set in Dragon Pass (Snakepipe Hollow and Apple Lane), I can certainly understand why neither featured chariots, since both involve combat in enclosed or underground locations. But RQG is explicit - chariots are commonly used for mobile platforms for spell-casting and missile attacks. Just check out pages 220-222. That's an official Chaosium publication, not some comment on some digest from the 1990s. You are of course welcome to have your Glorantha be whatever you want it to be, but if your Glorantha refuses to incorporate anything from the last decade, you should probably state that.

They are not broadly the same rites - a chief is not a mini-king and the Chief Tests are not the Crown Test. So the "Chief Test" are basically proof that the candidate meets the requirements of being a candidate - remember that the assembled members of the community ultimately choose who among the candidate will lead them. The "Crown Test" is a ritual duel, display of magic, or feat of adventure (like a raid or quest). The more impressive the Crown Test is, the more obvious it is that the gods support that person to be tribal leader.

Chariots of course are particularly useful in Glorantha because they can be used as mobile platforms for spell casting. One can cast active spells, augment with things like Meditate, and can use their melee or missile skills at full effect regardless of the charioteer's skill. This gives chariots a role they did not have in the real world - as mobile spell platforms for Rune levels. In fact chariots are so important to the Orlanthi in general that they have a charioteer cult! And not some toss-away subcult name, but one of the deities that have been a part of Glorantha since the 1970s.

I am treating those books flippantly because I was involved in creating them. I know what they are intended to be - notes, works in progress, etc. They are materials gathered together so we could have them handy as we worked on other materials. Heortling Mythology is not and was never intended to be canon. In fact, the process of putting together Heortling Mythology convinced Greg and I that a lot of the stuff written for Hero Wars was just plain wrong and needed to be discarded. What we put together in the Guide, RQG, and the Cults books are the product of over a decade of careful re-evaluation, deep dives, root revivals, and experiencing Glorantha anew. It is the basis of canon, not our research notes. And no it is not lore that the Volsaxi are the last Orlanthi to be chariot users. And in fact, chariots are still used in Sartar to this day. It might be useful to read RQG and other actual published materials rather than just rely on half-remembered "lore".

I don't consider either Afadjann or Kareeshtu as having well-organised military. They are collections of rival city-states, currently held together by Darleester's Noose (in the case of Afadjann) or through the might, fear, and paranoia of the undying Archidomides (in the case of Kareeshtu). Their main enemies are their own people.

That's a little less than my usual rule of thumb. Most all adults are initiates, regardless of culture, and around 2% of initiates are Rune levels. So we've got about 1.2 million Lunar initiates (all cults) in the Heartlands, around 20-24,000 Rune levels, with around 10,000 Red Goddess initiates at max. These are not hard numbers of course. Thanks to war, pressure, desperation, or whatever, with some cults the number might be over 2% and in others it might be closer to 1%. So Sartar we have 34,000 initiates of Orlanth, but might have somewhere around a 1000 rune levels.

The Heortling Mythology book was never intended to be canon. It just started from a desire that Greg had to have all the stories that appeared in various books in one place. He then added a bunch of additional stories, I added some more. It was a rough draft and notebook for what would eventually become Belintar's book (which ultimately formed the basis of the Cults series). I proposed that we publish the book as a way of getting some revenue; Greg was ambivalent at best (just as he was about Arcane Lore) but went along with it. On retrospect, Greg's ambivalence was well warranted. Huh? Where the heck does this even come from? The Volsaxi have been well described in the Guide and other publications. Look you are welcome to your own Glorantha. But as far as published Glorantha (which is now entirely with RuneQuest) goes, the Orlanth cult is divided into three major aspects: Adventurous - that's the heroic aspect of Orlanth that runs around raiding, fighting, and having all sorts of adventures. Thunderous -that's the elemental aspect of Orlanth that brings storms, wind, and fertilising rain. Rex - that's the tribal aspect of Orlanth that rules the other gods. There's also a Vinga overlap, and bunch of subcults like Four Magic Weapons, Sartar, Voriof, Thunderbird, and the Thunder Brothers.

You seem to be missing the obvious - in Glorantha, people really can wield part of the power of their god. To do that they need to have a tangible spiritual connection and follow the demands of their deity. But in return, they really can fly, hurl lightning, make the crops fruitful, turn into a wolf, whatever. When they do that, they ever so briefly manifest the god in the ordinary world. Really and objectively. And quite often.

As a wild take on ZZ, I had one player point out the Monarch from the Venture Brothers can certainly channel some of that hate.

I think you are taking a poetic panegyric praising a god (Greg wrote a lot of those back in the days - GRoY, Entekosiad, FS, and the unpublished Lunar materials were filled with them), and then running with it even further. As an aside, the Greeks routinely did the same thing - just check out Cleanthes' "Hymn to Zeus." To add to it, you took something that you even acknowledge as non-canon to make your point. So let me make two responses: 1. The Gloranthan deities fulfill psychological or cosmic needs, if they are to be worshiped. Even Zorak Zoran and Storm Bull has their place in the cosmos and in the needs of their worshipers. They often do awful deeds (in the literal meaning of the word) that demonstrate their divine power. Because they are powerful, but not all-powerful or all-knowing, the question of theodicy that so often consumes moderns just doesn't show up. Ever seen a tornado close up? That's divine power. Is it good or is it evil? It simply IS - a part of the cosmos. In Glorantha I can wield some of that divine power by initiating to the cult of Orlanth. 2. Orlanth is a destructive and violent god (tornadoes, hurricanes, thunder, lightning, etc.) who also is an upholder of cosmic order. He and the Sun had a rivalry, which he ended by unleashing Death (another divine manifestation). Because of this, we have Time, Day and Night, and the world we mortals recognise. As farmers we love him, for his storms bring the rain that fertilizes the earth and lets us grow crops. Is he a "good" god? The Orlanthi say yes - he lets them wield his power, his associates and friends and broad and useful, and his cult is the cornerstone for their social organisation. Non-Orlanthi tend to view devoting oneself to such a destructive force to be foolish at the very least. Who's to say who is right? All we can say is that the Orlanth cult has certainly proven itself to be useful and has spread itself far and wide. Thunder Rebels really missed the point here - and Greg and I made the decision not to update it for HQ because we both agreed it really didn't describe the Orlanthi religion in Dragon Pass. If it describes anything, it is the henotheism of the Chariot of Lightning movement in Ralios, where Orlanth is worshiped as the supreme god (instead of just "king of the gods"). But that is a topic for another thread.

Keep in mind what a clan is - its an extended kinship group normally with a thousand or so people. The chieftain is the leader/protector of the clan. The title literally means “most important” or “big man.” The violent ethic of the Orlanthi lifestyle makes the chieftain a de facto warrior. He must also be just, to balance the many needs of his people; and strong, to represent them to the outside world. There is no gender requirement, but even if female, the chieftain is referred to as a “he”. He has the responsibility of being spokesperson and decision-maker for all members, especially in times of emergency. His success as community leader depends upon the support of the council and the folk, both of whom have separate methods of removing him from office, should the need arise. The clan chieftain serves as the speaker to the clan’s magical guardian or “wyter” and the recipient of the immense benefits and power that the community spirit may give. Because of the importance of the Orlanth cult among the Orlanthi, the clan leader needs to have been an initiate of Orlanth for at least a year. Orlanth, not Orlanth Rex (they might be a lay member of Orlanth Rex as well or even a temporary initiate, but that is a tribal matter). If there is more than one candidate among the kin, then they have to prove their skills against each other in the Chief Tests.

Probably the single most useful article for understand great house politics in the Lunar Empire.

The obsession with Heron and Stork Goddesses is tied to Marija Gimbutas and her belief of a "gynocentric" neolithic culture which was ousted by the "patriarchal" Indo-European cultures with the onset of the Bronze Age. The Entekosiad, Brightface, and the Bird Woman stuff all ties into that. We get less of that among the Theyalans in part because they are post- the fall of Brightface. But that's all ancient history. With the Third Age, we still have a few remaining Bird Woman fertility cults (SurEnslib and Biselenslib), primarily in Darjiin, Doblian, Kostaddi, and Sylila. They are big cults, with somewhere around 150k initiates in total. These cults have links with the ancient past, and include shamanism, sex and death rites, and also birds. But they also don't play a big (or even a minor) role in the monomyth. Think of them as a really successful Horned Man cult, but with a Bird Woman as the great shaman figure.

Bison and Sable Antelope can live perfectly well in Dragon Pass. And in Peloria.

Yep. It is the BRP Universal Game Engine. Says so right on the cover.

Are you absolutely determined to work all those old HW subcults into canonical Glorantha? Let me make it easy for you - the old HW books are not canon. In the Hero Wars period here's how they work: Finovan was an ancient hero or demigod who gave his name to the Finovan Hills in Volsaxiland aka Hendrikar. He might be the subject of a local spirit cult in Volsaxiland (or might not), but is not of wider importance. Destor was an ancient hero or demigod who gave his name to the Destor Hills in Volsaxiland aka Hendrikar. He might be the subject of a local spirit cult in Volsaxiland (or might not), but is not of wider importance. In Sartar, these figures do not receive cult worship. Instead the focus is on Orlanth Adventurous. Orlanth Adventurous can fly, walk invisible in shadows, and surround himself with mists - that makes it easy for him to steal. And young Orlanth initiates learn this stuff during their Ordeal Years: "New adults go through a period of cult training or apprenticeship, often called the “Ordeal Years”. The newly initiated young men (which include those women chosen by Vinga) are brought to Orlanth Adventurous and given weapons, a cloak, and a broad hat. This is sometimes done by the clan, more often by the tribe; in some cities, the young men live in the temple or guild house; in other traditional clans, they live in the wilderness. For the next two years, they learn to fight alone and as part of the militia. They raid and hunt, learn to run long distances, how to climb cliffs, and other physical training. Most importantly, they learn the songs and dances of the Orlanthi gods and heroes, how to speak with spirits, and of sex, the bonds of friendship, and the duties of men. "

Remember, the KoDP computer by definition is most definitely not canon. Heck, it is anti-canon!

"Malleable" is probably the wrong word as it conjures up hints of Orwell. Understanding of myth for most cults is based on participation in that myth, and then seeing the meaning of that myth and then seeing beyond that to a new meaning. As Lhankor Mhy writes, "Mythology is the art of Meaning." But in the end, Gloranthans participate in these myths. When we participate in a myth, we interact with the gods and might reveal secrets previously unrevealed that are clues to deeper meaning and understanding. For example, we can question then, confirm their identity through such techniques as the Three Questions Contest or other Challenges. Different mortals are going to have different experiences and meanings. Is that "malleability"? Or is that merely a reflection of mortal limitation in perceiving the fullness of the divine?

From time to time I try to put Gloranthan events in historical context, to help get a feel for "how long ago" something was. So here's a history of Dragon Pass with the foundation of the Kingdom of Sartar (1492) being synchronized with the Ratification of the US constitution (1789). Some of these dates are +/- a year or two, but this is just to get a feeling rather than precise dates. American History Date (AD) / Gloranthan Date (ST) 1420 AD - King Henry V becomes regent France / 1120 ST Dragonkill War 1547 AD - King Henry VIII dies / 1248 ST - Red Moon rises 1620 AD - Plymouth Bay Colony established / 1320 ST Orlanthi begin to resettle Dragon Pass 1789 AD - Ratification of the US Constitution / 1492 ST Sartar acclaimed Prince by assembled tribes 1817 AD - Era of Good Feelings begins 1520 ST - Apotheosis of Sartar 1847 AD - US Army captures Mexico City /1550 ST- Death of Prince Saronil 1863 AD - Battle of Gettysburg /1565 ST - Battle of Dwarf Ford 1867 AD - Reconstruction /1569 ST - Prince Jarolar killed by Elmali 1876 AD- Wild Bill Hickok killed /1578 ST - King Tarkalor dominates Dragon Pass 1901 AD - Teddy Roosevelt president /1602 ST - Lunar Empire rules Sartar 1922 AD - Pres. Harding makes first radio speech /1625 ST - Liberation of Sartar 1952 AD - Eisenhower elected president / 1655 ST traditional date for end of Hero Wars So if we posit our campaigns starting around the time when Harding was president (the era of Call of Cthulhu), the Hero Wars end with the election of Eisenhower. And when viewed this way, the Vingkotlings (subject of so much fascination by some fans), would have coexisted with the rise of Uruk.

Yeah, I suspect few "Heortling" (Sartarite and Heortlending) clans predate the Second Age. The old Hendrikar kinship group claim a thousand-year history before they were broken. Some Sartarite clans certainly claim ancient or mythological origins - although such claims should not be understand as historical links.

Prior to the Lunar Occupation, the Sartarites army was primarily foot militia led by mounted noblemen called thanes. The army was augmented by warrior societies, mercenaries, and various allied troops (such as Grazelanders, Pol-Joni, Praxians, and later Sun Dome Templars). The horse is seen as a Solar animal, descended from Yelm. Hyalor Horsebreaker, another descendent of Yelm, is said to have tamed the horse to serve men. The Orlanthi adopted horse-riding in the First Age, but their small horses were often better used for pulling chariots or are ridden by full-time warriors and petty nobles. Other animals are often used as mounts, particularly bison and sable antelope (high llamas and impala are considered more difficult to learn to ride). The best horsemanship in Sartar is associated with the Yelmalio cult, the Runegate clans, and the Pol-Joni. Of these group, the Pol-Joni are considered the best horsemen, and ride horses of Grazelander origin. The Yelmalio cult reveres horses. The Orlanth cult is pragmatic towards horses, as it is with so many things.

Vingkotlings were around some 5000 years ago. Their civilization ended long before the Dawn. They are about as relevant to this discussion as Final Neolithic settlements are in order to understand the tensions in Philip's Thessaly. And I will say it again, Harvar Ironfist did not seek to convert everyone to Yelmalio. He used that cult to establish his personal rule over the tribes around Alda-Chur, and ruled by force and without public legitimacy - hence his sobriquet. Here's his official summary: Harvar Ironfist This Light Son from the Vantaros tribe was the leading figure in the Far Point for the past generation. Born in 1580, he became Light Captain of Alda-Chur in 1610 and crushed the Righteous Wind Rebellion the following year. He proclaimed himself Prince of Alda-Chur and was appointed Duke of Far Point by the Lunar Provincial Government. He ruthlessly enforced his peace in the Far Point, aggressively protecting merchants and travelers. He was devoured during the Dragonrise, and his death has left a vacuum with the Far Point tribes.

At this point, it is clear that this thread has long since run its course. If you want to create a new thread about what stuff you want us to write, go for it, but I am shutting this one down.

Yes it is. Since before even RuneQuest. And developing a good means to communicate how to create and run heroquests, as well as mechanically define their consequences has proven challenging. It is important that it be done right, that it be something that ties into Greg's views on mythology and his written stories - otherwise we shouldn't do it at all. Now I think we finally have a mechanical system and a narrative approach that works and it is going into final form. Jeff

There is no good source for what the Fourth Age of Glorantha is going to look like, and actually remarkably few data points. But to give you a few just to tease: 1. The Third Age is said to end in 1658 with the apotheosis of King Argrath. Others say that occurs 1733. 2. Inkarne rules for a hundred years. This begins in either 1629 or 1643, depending on the source, and would mean she rules until 1729 or 1743. 3. The Illiteracy Era starts about a hundred years after the apotheosis of King Argrath. Some sources say around 1760 other sources put it around 1830. That's our Dark Ages. 4. The Illiteracy Era lasts a century or two. Argrath stories become a key part of early literature. 5. Argrath is widely renowned as THE great cultural hero but with many contradictory stories.. 6. Roughly a 150 or so years after the Recovery era, our unnamed scholar tries to puzzle out the identity of Argrath.