scott-martin

Love it! When do they want it? How soon is "now?" I've been waiting for Samastina enthusiasts to start weaving these exciting theological threads into something useful like a hat, a brooch, a fabric pterodactyl. If anyone knows anyone like that please point me their way. Until they step up with their revelations, here's my hot take on warm earth. Start by standing in the place where you live: Rhigos is important as the real center of Esrolian "earth power" (insanely rich soil, land routes) and so is probably a better example of the Ernalda complex in isolation than cosmopolitan Nochet. The gender mysteries or Old Ways run closer to the surface here. There aren't so many alternatives or distractions. When push comes to shove, this is the natural pivot point of mainland Esrolia against Nochet, as we see in the civil agrarian wars of the 1070s. Ezel cloistered in the hills of Delain works through Rhigos where Delain is the local goddess, linked by common archaic Delainaeo heritage (survival or reconstruction). I would not be surprised to see more substantive digging reveal that the Delainaeo were "the original Asrolians" supplanted at some stage by younger goddess people from elsewhere, but this is complicated, obscure and controversial. The Esrolian people were relatively untouched by the teachings of the Theyalan Lifebringers. Rhigos gets the full benefit of enriched volcanic soil coming down the rivers and spread by the prevailing Heler winds. People looking for "Egypt" can find it here. You could practically drop a baby tooth in this dirt and in a year dig up a fully formed baby. This naturally makes the place a bigger prize for hungry outsiders so the girls have gotten crafty at managing the boys. Think of the techniques the Earth Pantheon uses in Gods War. Think of the Husband Protector system. Think of Harmast Barefoot. Think Flamal Rites, Entekosiad. Think of oxen and swine, bachelor herds and their opposite. Mighty Rhigos, mother of nations. Caladra is where the gods who "warm" the goddesses come from. This is the warmth the Warm Earth is looking for. Veskarthan at home is not necessarily Lodril because at home the male corner is the devourer, hated and feared by elves and other crops. You have to lure Veskarthan into town in order to lodrilize him and make him useful but not dangerous. She chanted the words, breathed upon the remains of the ashes, and a tiny flame burst out. More recently, Rhigos probably suffered significant indignities in the Adjustment before finally subverting the Hendrikite overseers and regaining their freedom in time to greet the Trader Princes. A golden age begins. Good things come down the river like volcanic soil. The rivers are Heler's daughters. Heler versus Veskarthan, in her cycle the goddess marries blue and then she marries gold. (And maybe red also.) Once again storm becomes a fourth wheel as Hendrikite influences get absorbed into the native mythic ecology and vanish. She has different names in different seasons. Delain remains abstractly above it all, eternally herself but ringed in with taboo, euphemism, rainbows and other veils. She dances. There's a natural etymological impulse to make the Demivierge a kind of hungry virago figure threatening to upland masculine sympathies. But I don't know. "Old" storm-facing earth was never going to fly down here until the Samastina fans cook up something really astounding. The only real question here in flyover country is whether you prefer the breadbasket of the world be warm or red, low fire or lunatic sky. And in that moment I know who really had Kallyr's ear to the sorrow of just about everyone.

That's why it blows its stacks! Literally. But there's still a lot we don't know about Caladra inner doctrine, how they relate to the Plateau in particular, etc. For that matter I'm reminded that I now need to make an open call for Heler enthusiasts to get a better sense of how the hero wars play out in western Maniria. Still a lot we don't know or have forgotten about those tribes too.

If I were pursuing it today I'd have some guys in there working with a pro-Solar imperial faction, the Assiday I guess, to restore Sky to what they think is its rightful role at the center of the universe, refine away this weird and annoying lunar crud, get the many little suns lined up. For fun let's say a bunch of recalcitrant (Y)ehilmaloids get the news this is their new promised land and head down to work out their oedipal issues over there. Unfortunately for them IMG this would be part of a larger rotation among the fires and so between a revitalized and truly vibrant Lodril Unchained (plateau blows its top, spike rises) and Jar-Eel and her gang putting the red kibosh in Esrolia proper the normal solar influence melts down pretty fast. Also star magic, unicorn women, Teshnites. Ultimately they all screw it up when the western (storm) tribes intervene like they do.

A few hints and rumors in old post-Belintar campaign logs that they're actively working with Warm Earth to destabilize Esrolia, either as a counterpoint to the Lunar effort or just a parallel power grab. They seem to be aggressive enough to drive the rump unity faction into cooperation with Red Earth, but that might just be a phase in the struggle. Either way, they're definitely a player in the Earth Sixth and so their politics at home haven't really been explored yet. My guess is they came out of the MOLAD disaster in a relatively united and uh inflamed position, eager to project influence on more passive and incredibly wealthy former allies. In a way it isn't hard to imagine the Sixths spiraling into a reprise of the elemental Gods War dynamics (Fire oppresses Earth and is checked by Storm, etc.) after the artificial MOLAD system evaporates and all that magical energy needs to go somewhere. There are also hints of a naval alliance with a pirate town called "little Mandros" west along the coast. This might be an early draft of Handra or one of the other Manirian free ports. The goal is clearly to project friendly naval power into the Choralinthor over the anticipated protest of the locals. Again, elemental dynamics in play. In this model they also hate the Shadow Plateau and I wouldn't be surprised if some clever person isn't trying to raise Free Lodril via the usual tactics . . . overheating the volcano, calling local monster man, getting ornery. Not sure what Warm Earth is getting out of it beyond a soil infusion that doesn't depend on the rivers and the rain, but arguably in light of recent agricultural disruption that might be enough.

Shadowlands might well have operated that way in various phases of the Tribute. Old-school Battlestar Galactica fans will recall the cannibal casino planet of the Ovions, a kind of lotus eater island where the "flowers" have sharp appetites. I don't know how to boot a theory back out of the dumb zone but it's starting to sound like this one is reaching for breakout fan canon status. Well played, @Eff! Evidently Kerofinela = Kalifornee after all. Let the MOLAD games begin and reenact the myths!

That's super hot stuff. Going to look for a lost figure behind Spol now, YarGan YarGar, once the wellspring of "a large pocket of worship in Peloria" and ultimately Fronela. First he lost his Truth and then he lost his realm (a kind of northern holy country), becoming one of those lost gods who vanished at Castle Blue. The Xentha / Xemela linguistic link is close to a simple coincidence.

Carmanian Sorcery has got to look extremely strange from a modern Rokar-centered perspective. Awful unreconstructed influences. Strange gods. The works. This then of course becomes one of the matrices of Lunar Sorcery, whereupon hangs at least one joke.

It's a good question. A local sect or secret society called the Dragon Emissaries claimed to have been around in the region since the late 600s, when the Spolite philosophy was dominant and orthodox yelmists don't like to talk about it. These people or entities then get mixed up in the emerging Golden Dragon movement by 800, but historical records of this era are fragmentary and often seem to have been successively purged by careful editors. After Dara Happa Rises there was a radically anti-EWF dragonslayer movement incorporating Carmanian / Western insights. The important people in this movement eventually break with the Carmanians and are ultimately wiped out in the Kill, taking their insights to the fire with them. Historical records around this era are equally fragmentary, with a lot undoubtedly lost or "misplaced" in the Carmanian occupations and other Kill upheavals. The lunar relationship (if any) to dragon forces remains tantalizingly unclear. If I were doing it today, I'd insert strong Kralorelan elements to better tie the lozenge together in complex diversity, possibly making the Golden Dragon a kind of "joint project" between them and EWF and setting up larger conflicts between the eastern God Learner complex and their estranged but magically capable Carmanian cousins with EWF and Dara Happa stuck in the middle. But that's not today.

I don't know about these ladies but driving any fertile woman, especially an active and ornery priestess, into the crone zone is a good way to invite serious curse reprisals from all parties. It infuriates the mother and distracts the crones, which amounts to the same thing in the end. Of course it happens even in Glorantha because ambitious people rarely think through all the implications of what they're doing. In my general experience everything looks like Ernalda when you're in the prime of life. Aging is how you are initiated into the knowledge that the mother is only the queen of the world to her children . . . the really deep earth allows her that much prestige but no further. These are some of the secrets Belintar somehow managed to glean despite being formed as a boy, by the way. Somehow he was already there in the rite. And he knew how to come back from it.

Love it. Strange fragment that seems to support this narrative: The third deity which stirred to make a mountain was Chalana Arroy, who we know now as a Goddess of Harmony. She sat upon a slope of the Spike, and reached out her right hand and invoked the power of Innocence. As a result of her desire, her mountain was inverted, and made instead a deep hole whose volume, say philosophers, exactly equalled the volume raised by the mountains that were made before. Later on this huge pit was filled by water and became known as the Pool of Serenity. In this model the Pool might well be one of the eastern seas. Everything depends on which direction the goddess was facing and whether she spent any time as Harantara.

Love it. Yeah, there's a component of simulacrum or "anywhere out of this world" to the MOLAD experience. And yeah, what has me wound up is the deep textual evidence that for centuries the original cold war symbolic conflict wasn't Sartar / Peloria or Red Moon / Sheng or even EWF / God Learner but Holy Country / Red Moon. These were the magico-cultural superpowers and one of them implodes first, leaving the emergent Sartar current behind as the next front.

This is a great meditation for all surviving MOLAD enthusiasts and even OOO loyalists to pursue. Lately I lean toward saying that every Country was Holy if you go back far enough . . . but the peoples around the Choralinthor remembered that dream a little better when they woke up. Their Holiness remained closer to the surface at the Dawn and survived within Time. Call it historical accident or magico-political agenda, luck or fate. Maybe OOO represented a somewhat different organic confederation of nations, a different "country." (There's always another country.) Maybe some of these countries were "holy" at various times and had something like a sacred and holy king or queen. Maybe they'll receive one in the future. I have my hopes for Esrolia, Caladra, the esoteric kingdom of Malkonwal and probably other local houses of the Holy. The Heortlandish tried and it was a disaster. Why here? This is where he washed up and so it was the expression of his teaching. His authority extended exactly so far and no farther. Esrolia was Holy to the extent to which it was within that mythic radius . . . but otherwise, the profane system of grandmothers bickering over nomes was also always going on day by day underneath the Belintar symbolic overlay. He made it worth their while. Ditto the other sixths, each according to their elemental ecology. Stand in the place where you are. (Now face west.)

A doubloon to the person or heroquest team who gets this into the Jonstown Compendium. Essential to a Lunar Hero Wars.

1589 leads the thaw of Riverjoin so it's not hard to imagine a busy baby. One day soon we might find out what kind of talent White Moon had and what remains. MGF suggests there must be a rebel faction left alive beyond 1625, otherwise there'd be no real joy in setting up the story hook and then barring the players from ever participating.

This is my favorite euphemism. I imagine the sky opening and the air turning into water, fire turning into crystal that shatters at a kiss or a glance. Lights in the deep. Colors pulsing on and off the rainbow like strings on a fussy harp, planets dancing like some juggler's act. Smog. Madness. Glamour. All those cosmic pivot SFX as the lunar visions clash. At the end I'm not sure what happens with the White Moonies but it probably isn't fun for many. "Fierce, terrible and glorious." The last miracle of the Eel family as the corn grows as high as a dragon's eye. Shadow of Lunar Hero Wars to come. A shadow of "luck and death" fluttering like a bat's wing if you keep your eyes open. They probably argued theology a little now and then too.

It is good when the nieces win. In the great chain of being I suspect you defeat me, they defeat you, my cat defeats them. The Archaic Source in question is quoted here . . . the "wandering tribes" may not be the zaranistangi but clearly share a mighty close lineage. The problem for sages is of course that there are no exoteric historical records of this happening yet, which means that the timeline extends into a Western Hero Wars period or is a dim projection from a Storm Age cultural origin myth. Either outcome can be exciting. Maybe the blue people built Erenplose instead and that's where they retreated for the final revelation. They have their own flood-negating magic there so the Sword would be extra . . . and portable. I really like all the blue people in the region you are drawing together here. They're often lumped in with "Helerites" but it's strange if this turned out to be the only part of the world where a separate Heler nation survived. Given the god's nature I'd think he'd be everywhere moist, in which case "Heler" may be an exonym perpetuated by people who knew Heler but not Artmal until it was too late to clear up the confusion..

This thread is living up to its potential! I need a place to hide the legacy of the artmalite diaspora that ends up in Ralios in archaic texts. Safelster is theoretically interesting but already a little crowded and far from tidal / blue moon resonances. Slontos, on the other hand, has the advantage of geological upheaval wiping out a lot of records while preserving others for Hero Wars excavation. In this scenario they probably have the Red Sword in there.

Kaxterplose is where the surviving Western Artmalites / zaranistangi retreated.

Tagging this because you've given me that most dreadful gift, worse than any dumb theory: a long-range project. Watch the skies! Glorantha revels in fratricide and at least historically not so much la belle dame sans merci, which is I think where a lot of the ambivalence around the Red Goddess happens and where we might see interesting developments on the horizon. The horrifying thing for most prominent (male) Gloranthan figures isn't to be accused of sexual misconduct as to be actively seduced, enthralled or "converted." Less Phaedra, more Circe . . . and even then, it rarely seems so bad. But a lot of Ariadne. And not a little Medea.

Freudian slip with all the talk about the Hollow being associated with the Hard Earth / Skyfall culture. Maybe a fertile one though!!

This is a great line. Reminds me of the people who knew how to work with Stone when Stone was alive . . . or of the Stonepipe Hollow culture. Top concept of the season!

As @Sir_Godspeed notes, consider Issaries. The haggler's mindset lends itself to seeing the world not so much in terms of "right" and "wrong" but in terms of relative "opportunity" and "challenge." Every system can be made more efficient working from the inputs (inventory to sell, supply chain, identifiable demand) to discover optimal pricing and make the trade happen. And then you move on to the next trade, carrying the transactional profit with you. Profit is portable. It's what you extract from the status quo that wasn't there before. The difference between it and the Tap is that you're theoretically adding value to the system, making it better than it was when you found it. Creating wealth. Introducing a lonely donkey to a mare and letting nature extend your carriage train. And then there's the spell trading network, which bends cult restrictions as long as you can find customers more greedy for exotic magic than they're afraid of taboo. The network is the future.

I think the Autarchy in its "stygian" aspect is still a great place to start. By the time it was over, there were a lot of troll forces baked into that framework. OOO and his Shadowlands seem to have transferred their role as HQ environment to the God Learner Empire while that lasted. Waertag- and other triolini-oriented cultures have largely been pushed into the historical background and are probably especially controversial in the doom of the Quinpolic League but the archaeology is there for those who look. The triolini have full Elder status for a reason not really appreciated right now. That will change.

Pikat Yaraboom Yolanela keeps trying.

These are great questions. I suspect that part of the process of what makes divine heritage "literal, non-metaphorical" is establishing that you were always already there in some form in the pre-time. This might mean questing back and recognizing yourself in the mythic landscape, then bringing back evidence. It might also mean having this done on your behalf. Those who disbelieve will simply discount the claim as metaphorical, as when people bicker over who Arkat's real father was. Ylream Serpent King was born in time to a bona fide goddess and IMG Damol really is the storm god's child. There are others. EDIT also people who become gods within time often leave dynasties behind, i.e., the line of Sartar, a man who became a god.