Darius West

I'm surprised you can't see why this is problematic. Yes, the Primal Plasma was necessary for the growth of the world, but at a certain point, growth becomes cancer. I think there are more than enough threats in Glorantha without chaos, so what is its real purpose? Why is it necessary? I think the allegory that "life is struggle" can be proven without recourse to a constant threat of universal annihilation. the Primal Plasma was the building material of life, but the deities then had control over it and made it into useful things that fitted within a pattern. Since the Unholy Trio polluted the Primal Plasma, it has brought nothing good to the world. I would be more inclined to view Nysalor in a positive light if he had performed some sort of HQ to clean the Primal Plasma, but no, he simply said Chaos was fine as is and we should all learn to accept it. This is a bit like when political parties stop talking about solving problems and start talking about problems being "issues". The implication being that they have no answers.

Wakboth holds the chaos rune, ergo, Wakboth IS chaos. You say Wakboth is not all Chaos, but how certain of that are you? Do you doubt that Wakboth can call the creatures of chaos to leap into his mouth to sustain him, but obliterate themselves in the process? As to Wakboth liberating the creatures of Glorantha from their gross matter, well what about liberating minds from sanity, and for that matter, liberating those who exist into the blissful non-existence they knew before their birth? In this sense the Crimson Bat is also a great liberator, but the teaching methods are a bit extreme, and you have to be a certain kind of mystic to appreciate the message. I think you will find that humans have always been tribal and that tribes have laws, many of which are more strict than our own. It is faster to obliterate yourself by cutting your own throat. Optionally, leaping into the mouth of the Crimson Bat works an awful lot better as it also removes that pesky ghost. The truth is that there was never a self to obliterate, but that isn't the same as being at one with everything. If there are no "personal goals" then what does it matter what other people do? As to Experiencing the other, you do that every time you step outside your door. No. Chaos is about more than just a way of describing conflict. Chaos is more than an arbitrary definitional system that you can re-categorize. Chaos at some level can be described as a transgressive taboo that one should not perform, but that is not without foundation. Chaos is a declaration of war on everything that lives. Chaos is the acceptance of body warping mutations and diseases as your weapons. Chaos is the rejection of all your tribe taught you in favor of betraying and destroying them. To accept Chaos is to choose to become the enemy of everything. Yes, you may form an alliance with other chaos monsters, but it is a temporary alliance that you will betray when it becomes convenient, and your fundamental aim is to become bigger than Wakboth before Wakboth escapes the Block. Chaos is annihilation of everything, not mere evil.

The Broo healer of the Rockwoods mainly heals broos. And yes, a good Uroxi would commit suicide rather than take on a chaos feature, but is an illuminated Uroxi a good Uroxi? Is an illuminated anything a good anything? Not for long. Dragonewts do many odd things, and never rule out wearing garters. "Shame on anyone who thinks evil of it"

And why would I do that when none of the evidence points to any other view being correct? Right, so, we should take a broo's opinion of the truth over the rest of Glorantha's? The only reason Glorantha has a diversity of opinion is because it rejects chaos. Had the bulk of Glorantha simply accepted Chaos, all those views you are saying are so diverse and important would have simply ceased to exist, having been destroyed by Kajabor and Wakboth and the world would be dead. Where's the diversity in that horrible gooey monoculture of dead chaos slime? I am defending the right of Glorantha to look at the inculcation of chaos via illumination and say "this is a wolf in sheep's clothing and it needs to die for everyone's safety", so how about you get off your high horse and respect the diversity of my opinion too? "What is evil? Where the Four Virtues are good, their opposite is evil. Philosophers often call this chaos, which seeks to corrupt and pollute and destroy." - Also found in Esrolia, Land of 10,000 Goddesses. It is quite likely that some illuminated infiltrator left your "Chaos is beautiful" graffiti some time in the first age. It is pretty obvious that the Unholy Trio polluted the Primal Plasma, and Chaos can now never be anything other than a blight on Glorantha. Yes, Wakboth was a part of the outcome, but he wasn't the only chaos deity spawned from the primal plasma. So how does this tie in with chaos being the beautiful source of all? Fundamentally the point is wrong. It is not chaos that was a beautiful source of life, but the primal plasma, before it was tainted. Post tainting it is just chaos, and a danger to all living things, in much the same way that babies growing is fine when they are tiny and until they are full adults, but after the point of full maturity, further growths are almost always cancerous. I would draw a hard distinction between illumination that teaches an acceptance of chaos, which is dangerously incorrect at its core, and other forms of mysticism. Orlanth has at least 2 forms of mysticism that I know of, the draconic stream and the Larnstings. Why would it then need Nysalor? They fought against Lakamayadon after all. Also, the Draconic mysticism stream is more about growing yourself into a dragon, rather than embracing chaos. Similarly the Larnstings are pacifists who believe in change, if Sartar's behavior is anything to go by. Orlanthi are enemies of illumination as it teaches the acceptance of chaos, and in what way should anyone accept chaos if chaos' version of acceptance is being subjected to unspeakable things? There is a simple matter of basic reciprocity that chaos doesn't understand or can't be bothered with. Then there is the whole business of chaos being the death of the world. Now you might be fine with working for the death of the world by accepting illumination, but not everyone is, and a great many people would regard that as a form of treason, and rightly so. Central to the mystical experience is the truth of the mystic's oneness with all that exists. IRL this means a feeling of one-ness and compassion with even one's bitterest enemies, and an equanimity towards things that can harm you as being transitory. Then the vision ends and you are back in the world, and your enemies still hate you and you are not immune to the ailments of the body. A vision is of no value to you if it gets you killed. How many more will you kill when you embrace your one-ness with chaos, now you know it is always an option, sitting there to tempt you without any apparent negative repercussions?

Nope. Chaos is definitely the death of the world, or Glorantha would revere Wakboth as a great liberator and a new god. Kajabor was so powerful that even the spirit of Glorantha herself couldn't actually destroy him, but had to turn Entropy into Time to curtail this immensely destructive force, which even now is destroying everything in Glorantha, just more slowly, and will inevitably completely destroy the world eventually. The fact is, Glorantha existed perfectly happily before chaos, and to remove chaos would be an immense blessing. There is no "spiritual message" involved here. You have bought into illuminate propaganda that "chaos isn't so bad", but go back and read about the Greater Darkness, and compare that to what the world was like prior. Glorantha doesn't need chaos any more than you need a malignant brain tumor Eff. The whole idea that chaos is somehow necessary or "not so bad" is provably false. If you don't like oppressive cult strictures, don't join those cults. It isn't rocket science. As to Glorantha being "nicer" than the real world... Wow. Nope. I have to completely disagree with you. Glorantha is a bloodthirsty nightmare of a place ruled over by petty tyrants and warlords for the most part. I can get in my magical cart and travel to another city hundreds of miles away without the expectation of having numerous bands of @ssh*les try to murder me along the way. In Glorantha, not so much. In terms of my social responsibilities, they are far lower than would be the case in Glorantha as my society is individualist, while Gloranthans are very collectivist for the most part. For all our laws, you are not expected to take up arms whenever your local government decides it wants to attack the neighboring suburb. The notion is absurd, and such territorial rivalries are entirely restricted to the sporting fields. Similarly your local councillors cannot refuse you a marriage license on the grounds that your partner hasn't brought enough livestock to the deal. As to where that becomes a moral duty, well, every decision is invariably a moral decision. Everything we do has moral consequences, even if the acts seem inconsequential. Now yes, dodging your responsibilities is definitely a matter of morality, and failing to meet your obligations is also a moral failing unless they are very unjust duties indeed. As to breaking down spirituality into some sort of objective/subjective dichotomy isn't useful. The fact is, objectivity and subjectivity are not opposites, and it is a failure of philosophical education that so many people think they are. The personal is intrinsically public, and the public is intrinsically personal, as we are part of both systems at the same time. You can't live in a society and not be affected by it, but this is a feedback loop, as you and your choices also affect your society. Our brains produce electrochemical thoughts that are totally physical, however complex, and these exist in the world objectively, despite the fact that other people are not able to experience them the way our consciousness does. If our thoughts and emotions are not subjective, what is? It is all a matter of qualia, and normally one person's qualia is not so different from another person's. As to what is spiritual... Ask a spirit. I completely disagree with your opening sentence. Joining a cult is a Gloranthan's primary point of identity. It grounds them in their relationship to the world on a fundamental mythological level, remembering that in Glorantha that mythology is equivalent to our ideas of atomic and subatomic structure and the scientific disciplines that allow us to understand and manipulate them. It matters a lot As to the rest of it, well, no Orlanthi is going to knowingly initiate a Sedenya worshipper into Orlanth. Now in terms of being fantastically wealthy, often this requirement can be avoided by being a traveller. This wouldn't be lost on an illuminate, as many of them will have to travel extensively to replenish their delicious rune magic until they qualify as priests. It might be possibly to consecrate a small temple space to regain rune magic to some degree. The point is, we don't want a world full of these sort of absurd God Learners, so it is good that they are restricted by the cults. Now let's think about this in terms of chaos features. You can play an illuminated Storm Bull/Uroxi who has chaos features, and nobody could detect the chaos features. Most chaos features are on all the time btw. So why not join Urox and Primal Chaos? A good illuminate would see no contradiction here. After all, it is great to be able to regenerate while I go berserk with my 12 AP skin armor under my iron armor. Now I'm off to see if I can convince the Dragonewts into letting me restart the EWF and teach me lots of dragon magic to offset my sorcery and shamanism. Honi soit qui mal y pense. See above. Arkat would have had access to sorcery from his time in the west, divine magic from his time among the Orlanthi and shamanism from his time among the trolls. Later he took on chaos features. The trick with munchkining is to find ways that these things create loopholes that the rules don't apply to. For example, you can stack spirit magic with sorcery on the same weapon, and then boost it with divine magic too. So Bladesharp + Boon of Kargan Tor + Neutralize Armor + Truesword, on the Unbreakable Sword, because why not, oh and just use Morale to multiply your skill, as your shield + protection + castback + ward against weapons will protect you. This is of course all powered by spirits bound into power crystals, but if they are running a bit low, just start chucking Tap spells. Those chaos features are just the icing on the cake. It's only right and proper. Who cares about the intricacies of your worldview when you can basically slaughter the crimson bat in a combat round with a 1600 point head critical. that will go off unless you roll 00? The real trick is of course to become immortal enough to have time to learn what you need to know. How many hero quests would that take? You can also take the blunt force approach. It works just as well but breaks the game very effectively. A good munchkin will always work their hardest to FUBAR the game, regardless, but illumination just makes it so much easier.

The point is that within the history of Glorantha illumination HAS been exploited by munchkins, over and over again. And yes, that means this was part of the Author's intention, unequivocally. Illumination seems benign on one's first parse of the info, but it isn't. Illumination is actually a hugely insidious and destructive force in Glorantha. Then you are doing it wrong. Orlanth has so many aspects and subcults that it is eminently possible to play any number of variations on the theme, who are all utterly individual and unlike each other... Unless you are playing HQ, as then you are limited to some very standardized keywords and it can get very boring very quickly. Optionally, why not play a different cult? I had a riot playing a highly amoral and materialistic Chalana Arroy recently. The point being, you don't need to play an illuminate to spice up playing any specific cult, and in virtually every way, a character is actually more interesting when they have restrictions, as they provide gravity and direction to a character. Are you kidding? That's utterly realistic. Yes, in life as in RPGs that mirror life, you need to choose between obeying the laws and scruples of your society or being an opportunistic psychopath/narcissistic criminal who needs to be put out of everyone else's misery because you have managed to escape the normal means of social enforcement. Orlanthi and many other cultures passionately hate and fear illumination for a very sound reason. It promotes atrocious behavior, and the long term effects of illuminates in a society are intensely toxic.

Bronze age warfare shouldn't quite be subject to the same moral compass we would ourselves apply. They are a society where the routine slaughter of animals for sustenance is a matter of necessity and religious observance. The death of enemies is a matter for which you rejoice and thank the gods. if you can slaughter them in massive job lots, so much the better; thank the gods even more. To talk about innocent victims is culturally ignorant and inappropriate. Were they innocent victims when they sent their sons to lay waste to Sartar ? Were they innocent victims when they bent their knee to Ralzakark instead of resisting chaos to their last breath, or at least having the wit to flee the territory? What about when civilians of their own empire were fed to the Crimson Bat to keep it in the field? They are part of a society that sowed the seeds of its destruction long before, and in a situation of total war, there are no longer any civilians on either side. The Hero Wars are a total war, and I like the fact that they are modeled on the Bronze Age Collapse. On the other hand, if you think the Assyrian Empire had innocent civilians, I might grudgingly accept that children under 7 could be considered innocent victims, but only because they hadn't yet been processed into replacement resources in the hegemonizing murder swarm of their society yet.

Isn't it ? I would have said that every munchkin and his little brother dog would have been lining up around the block to get the perk that lets you join any cult. There simply isn't anything intrinsically spiritual about dodging your responsibilities, culturally determined or otherwise. Nysalor illumination is a false illumination that amounts to spiritual materialism. It isn't even about actually seeking refuge from suffering, it's all just about unlocking power. Any actual spiritual dimension is largely irrelevant. And what is the spiritual message of Nysalor? It amounts to "Chaos isn't so bad, see, you can have a chaos feature if you want." Yeah, the death of your world isn't so bad, you can help bring it about. Drink the Kool-Aid. Well, in absolute terms, characters in RPGs have not read the rules, but their players often have. Munchkining is about finding loopholes in those rules that you can exploit to an absurd amount. If illumination doesn't fall into that category then literally nothing does. Illumination is, if anything, purpose designed to facilitate that style of rules exploitation. To draw for a moment on how HQ (huck, spit) handles the mysticism rules, it is all about refutation of physical and spiritual principles. For example, if you want to fly, you refute gravity, and if you want to heal, you refute injury, and if you want to be immortal, you refute age. Mysticism is either transcendental (above the worldly) or immanent (actively of the world). In the case of the Dragonewts, arguably their mysticism sits balanced on a knife-edge between the two which I would dub synthetic, as it synthesizes the two views. I would argue that Dragonewts have access to another "dragon dimension", and they are developing their pure spiritual body in that realm, and every time they bring that body into this reality, they lose the part they manifest for that lifetime, unless they regrow it in a timely fashion. Eventually the mystic supposedly refutes the world and leaves it for the "realm of their final destination". There is none of this in the Nysalor tradition,partly the deity is dead, and partly because it was primarily an immanent tradition that was based on the acquisition of power. Better yet, the Nysalor riddles cause the uninitiated to fall for a Big Brother "Slavery is Freedom" narrative that supports the worst sort of imperialism; the sort that colonizes your ability to reason. Have you ever noticed that everyone who says "I am beyond good and evil" is generally really just excusing the fact that they have become evil and don't want to answer for it? Nobody is ever "beyond good and evil", because those terms are not about how you view yourself, but about how other people view you. Jeffrey Epstein when interviewed famously said "I'm very comfortable in my own skin", so does that mean he's beyond good and evil? Not in my book. A truly spiritual person holds themself to a very considered and high level of moral conduct. They may not hold with certain values, and may actively reject quite a few as being socially destructive or hackneyed and an obstacle to spiritual growth. For example, Buddha saw that extreme austerities fell into this definition; that injuring your body was not a productive spiritual approach. It isn't, however, the place of the mystic to say that they, themselves, are beyond good and evil. All that means is that they hold other people's opinions of themselves in contempt, and while "the sage may treat the common people as a straw dog; revering them and then casting them aside", that is because they understand that the decency of ordinary people while very worthwhile is no longer a standard they can hold themselves accountable to; they must do better, not less. Nysalor teaches that you can do less if you want, and in fact you can work towards the Chaotic death of the world and that is okay too. That is not beyond good, it is far beneath good, and very evil indeed. Chaos ceased to be a force for growth in Glorantha when the Unholy Trio defiled the Primal Plasma. Agreed, and agreed. While this isn't wrong, it also might be called a "party line" approach. The fact is that the cultures of Glorantha are not "cobbled together", they have evolved and are part of a living spiritual ecosystem. I think most illuminates behave like chaos creatures in this regard. They act as though they are "in the ecosystem but not of the ecosystem", which makes them enemies of the ecosystem. The benefit of the illuminate is that they might be able to shake the purely moribund and prejudicial parts of their culture so it can grow, (e.g. Argrath creating the Sartar Magical Union so that the Orlanthi ecosystem can break its former "programmed for defeat" mentality against the Lunars), but then you also get the God Learners who stole illumination and hero questing from the Dark Empire, and rebuilt the mythic landscape in their own image and to their own purpose. As any good Shaman knows, you don't need to be illuminated to create new symbols for your society to rally around, you just need to have a better answer than anyone else. Okay, I agree with that. Is it really so hard to resist the expedient unless it is also the worthy? Wisdom is just knowing the right thing to do and then actually doing it.

Yes is definitely is a joke of that sort... But do you seriously think that Illumination isn't also Munchkins gaming the rules? But it leads to another form of munchkins gaming the rules. Consider... You transcend cultural determinism, rejecting the implicit cultural limits you have been taught to accept, and are now spiritually immune to the repercussions of breaking them. This leads to moral relativism, supported by casuistry, that forsakes all limits in the pursuit of power. It is the very definition of munchkinism, dressed up in a New-Age frock sprouting a chaos feature that nobody can detect. Call that enlightenment? I call it Wakboth by proxy. I also don't think that studying Anthropology makes anyone enlightened. If anything it just makes them overqualified to sit in a grass hut in remote PNG.

This sounds very promising. Poland and its people often pleasantly surprise me. despite their implacable hatred of vowels. Błogosławieństwa dla was wszystkich

"Keep deep lore out of newbie threads. If you can’t say it in one paragraph it’s not appropriate for a new user post. Deep lore threads are awesome places to learn, but only when you are ready for them. Help new members by linking to existing deep lore posts with “Here is some more information if you are interested.” Have more in depth info to add? Make a new thread and link to it. Remind your fellow experienced members to continue the conversation there." I don't believe we should talk down to people or restrict them from "adult conversations". Deep lore conversations can be very tantalizing to newbies, so I propose that we instead try to encourage them but make them inclusive and educational. Then again I am drunk on free sake atm, so what do I know?

Yeah, by RQ3 rules I would argue that a 1 hour extension should only allow travel in the Near Spirit Realm, not the Far Spirit Realm. Aspirants/Assistants are noobs and should kick around in the wading pool while they learn to swim.

I think that might be more God Learning than Illumination, potaytoe potaatoe

I can agree with you to a degree, but remember that nothing opens the floodgates on power in Glorantha like illumination. Suddenly the illuminate is able to use and abuse magic like never before, and the only consequence is social censure by those who dare to speak truth to power in an age where massacre of enemies is seen as a good thing. Illumination is a license to riot handed down by some very questionable gods who are all-too sympathetic to chaos imo. In many ways, due to its covert nature, Illumination is more destructive of the world than actual chaos features and chaos monsters, as it subverts the powers of deities that normally fight against chaos and hands them to mortals who are apparently now no longer able to understand that chaos is utterly inimical to the life of everything in Glorantha and actively wants to destroy the world.

Yes, there is power involved, but to assume the continuation of war was the only reason would be very uncharitable. It is like telling someone that they are only marrying for sex or for money. Such a claim makes a lot of pretty simplistic and insulting assumptions. One might view the marriage as a way of hopefully securing peace in the region, for example. A way of seeking to end the Hero Wars, while guaranteeing that there was now a confederation strong enough to face off against the Lunars, including the former Holy Country, Maniria, Prax, Sartar and the rest of Dragon Pass and its various principalities. Such a territory could actually bring enough resources to bear to maintain a true peace, and properly threaten the Lunars if they chose to break the treaty. I would suggest that this is untrue, because Sartar in its 1602 form, and Sartar under Kallyr was territorially too small to ever be able to stand against the Empire. Sartar simply could never bring enough resources to bear to more than temporarily halt the onslaught of the Lunars. Sartar wins its freedom as a side effect of the Long Winter and the Dragonrise, with Pennel Fields being a secondary contributor as someone would probably move to fill the power vacuum. You missed the illuminated joke. A "good empire" is an oxymoron and a contradiction like "ignorance is power".

This is charmingly cynical and likely quite accurate. It certainly seems to describe the actions and motivations of most illuminates from the literature. Everyone is down on Argrath apparently for being a bit too genocidal with regards to the Monster Empire. Beat Pot is a hypocritical monster. Jar-Eel is a fascist poster girl with no conscience to speak of. Then there's Ralzakark... Yeah... Ralzakark... And there's Oddi the Keen, who joins up with Ralzakark before ultimately betraying him. I could get into how Arkat and Nysalor are both Gbaji. So, are all illuminates a pack of axeholes or what? "It’s impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face… and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared." -Col. Kurtz

If any part of Ralzakark is a broo then all of Ralzakark is a broo. Normal female child, or covert ogre illuminate?

Why kill them when you can simply render them unconscious with an uppercut, a sleep spell, a befuddle. "Chaos stalks my...ooof!"

If Argrath were only devoted to destroying the Lunar Empire he would never have taken the time to court and marry the Feathered Horse Queen. As to what Kallyr's long term aims were, why do you suppose that they were so very different to Argrath's? She wanted to restore Sartar, but really could Sartar be restored as an independent and sovereign power while the Lunar Empire still exists? Probably not, given the determination of the Lunars to kill Orlanth and subjugate Sartar at all costs. Do we ever hear of the Lunars seeking a long term peaceful settlement with Sartar or Argrath's Empire in Dragon Pass? No. I also hold to the notion that Argrath IS the genuine reincarnation of Arkat, and his destiny to destroy the Lunars is every bit as important as Arkat's destruction of the Bright Empire for the sake of Glorantha. Most, if not all Empires in Glorantha eventually try their hand at creating a new deity, run afoul of the great Compromise and unleash their nemesis which destroys them. Does this make the nemesis a villain, or is the true villainy ever with the hubristic ambition of the God makers?

In essence every hero is a proto-god by this reckoning. Most heroes, for example, have a Nemesis, and many have a fetch of some description. To say Ragnaglar is somehow not a broo is however absurd. Just because he is embodying the Unholy Trio doesn't make that less the case imo. No illuminated broo detects as chaotic, but does that mean they are no longer broos, or no longer chaotic? No. Illumination just hides this component of their character, but they can still have active chaos features. He isn't a deity, he's just a very naughty broo.

Ultimately the slaughter of Peloria is a mass Hero Quest. Orlanth killing Yelm... A lot. But seriously, by the time the slaughtering gets going in earnest the Lunars have devolved into the monster empire, and likely Argrath is getting the blame for the "Lunar" Empire imploding. Remember that the Lunars would "mainly" try to avoid feeding their citizens to the Crimson Bat...Mainly. I take the situation of the destruction of Peloria as being very similar to the way the Roman historians blamed the Visigoths and the Vandals for sacking Rome, when in fact it was the Romans themselves who sacked their city, hauling down and selling public amenities and fixtures in order to pay the latest tribute to Atilla. By the time the Visigoths and Vandals showed up, Rome was a shadow of itself by its own hand.

Jeff, I have always been curious about the Pavic cult of Iffinbix. It is apparently an Earth cult that practices sorcery, has square, slope roofed temples which require people to eat agipith roots before entering ( I assume they are filled with poisonous gasses), and likely practice a fair amount of teleport magic. Iffinbix also seems to be linked to the rise of vampires in Pavis. Can you tell me anything about the mythology of Iffinbix, or detail about the cult's history after Time, or what it's magical abilities are like? Was the cult originally from Teshnos, for example?

A fair assessment. Yeah, it is a bit like that. Beat Pot is a less-than-sympathetic character for that reason. Who knows what Jar-Eel sees in him. I think it expresses a huge deficit in her character that she takes him as a lover. That is a very jaundiced reading of those characters. They are both aware of the terrible dangers that illumination represents. The whole notion that chaos is somehow okay is fundamentally flawed as an idea, and the license to riot that illumination represents is something that a person with a conscience should oppose, even if they are illuminated. As for fighting a genocidal chaos worshiping empire, that seems like an ugly but utterly necessary duty for all living things in Glorantha as far as I am concerned. Chaos is the death of the world, with no reincarnation.

I think it runs deeper than that. Destroying the Lunar Empire isn't only something Argrath wants. Pretty much everyone in Sartar and the Heortlands wants that, and likely many folk from further afield too. Argrath is just the one who can and does bring it to fruition.

Broos can look like just about anything. If a broo buggers a unicorn, you get a unicorn broo. If a broo buggers a mold for a statue, you get a hollow human, and kudos for creativity.