Darius West

Well of course you can... but isn't that the very definition of egregious munchkinery? I mean, the fact is that PCs can't really follow that line of progression because it would take a decade IRL of legitimate skill increase rolls after weekly sessions to get to 400% in a major skill, and most games don't last that long.

Well, the simple answer is that Harrek will either bring himself back from the dead, or his crewmates will do so via a healer. You might have some luck trying to lock him in a Lunar Hell, but really I pity the Lunar Hell's guardians more than I pity Harrek in such a case. I think that killing Orlanth by taking Whitewall was easier than what your players are proposing. In the unlikely event that your players have Sartarite characters, they will be considered traitors and cast from their cults and their clans for the attempt, if not the actual success. As for the political ramifications of Harrek's death, it would mean that Sartar would lose quickly, unless Argrath could keep Gonn Orta in the field and be lucky enough to somehow kill Jar-Eel together, or perhaps she had an unlucky episode with a spell of mass destruction like a dragon burn, or the Earthshakers. For the most part, she'll live and Sartar will fail.

Mysticism is discussed in the Stafford Library extensively and should be a discrete form of magic on its own according to those sources. There is no reason to suppose that different schools of mysticism will bear any similarity to Nysalorism, which ostensibly exists to allow chaos worshippers to infiltrate non-chaotic cultures undetected for plot purposes, and which had its mystical core destroyed as false by Arkat, and fell into a very similar class of mystical error to Avanapdur who was shown to be false and ended by Mashunasan. The fundamental magic discussed for Mysticism by Greg was Refutations, and admittedly more needed to be done on that, but if you are going to tell me that Nysalorism is your template for Kralorela and the East Isles's versions of Mysticism which hundreds if not thousands of years of entirely independent history, I and others will be very disappointed. I mean, there are still people annoyed about the sorcery rules, but I am hoping that a big book about the West will fix that. In the mean time don't double down on a mistake due to some sunk costs fallacy.

So... Killing a superhero is about the same as killing a deity... but that's not egregious munchkinery...? Harrek likely has skills in the 1000% range, and the literal power of an arctic bear god, not to mention a crew of the most dangerous personal retainers in Glorantha. But yeah, you can just kill him. That's not a colossal to impossible undertaking. This is a guy who can personally slaughter a couple of the best lunar regiments a day, but you seriously think that it isn't unreasonable to kill him with ordinary characters? Harrek is basically the Marvel Superhero Wolverine, but with more power than Thor and Doctor Strange thrown in for good measure. If he went up against an M1A1 Abrhams Tank regiment, he'd win. Even Jar-Eel the Razoress can't kill him, and she's a goddess incarnate, but your players are going to do it no probs. Let me say it again EGREGIOUS MUNCHKINERY.

I had Gringle end up in Dizbos in Esrolia, slotting in with a contingent of Sartarite refugees who had been sent to the Esrolian hinterland by a sympathetic Esrolian noble house with interests in the area to bump up regional production and increase local population. As to Piku, I had him go to Refuge, as there was a rumor of a fellow Third Eye Blue cultist made good in the area. The rumor proves false, and they move to Mt Passant where their iron working skills are valued by the local authorities who fast track Piku's guild papers in return for guaranteed training of apprentices. Ultimately Yaku and Wakapo get rolled into the Sartarite War effort after the Dragonrise.

There is something called egregious munchkinery...

So what you are saying is that it isn't official policy yet.

In the case of Biturian Varosh playing Orlanth, the expectation for the Yelmalios was they wanted a weak adversary they could defeat easily.

Sounds like some Exile pseudo-Aristotle, a bit like the insertion of Leonardo into the God Forgot Isles.

The secrets of Hero Quests are something the tribes themselves guard and trade. Often clans have practices that differ from those of other clans. Now, people in an Orlanthi clan are all raised in pantheistic worship of the entire pantheon and have a decent idea about the myths of all the deities as part of their upbringing, and their childhood lay-membership of many deities before they finally chose who to initiate with. This is not the same as knowing a hero quest's finer details however. If a hero quest is Orlanth based, then the knowledge will lie with one's clan's Orlanth representative priests and lords. Will they tell your Issaries merchant what to do? How is his relationship with them? Is it good enough that they might perform the hero quest on his behalf? That would be the preferable outcome. Any male worshipper might stand in for Orlanth in a Hero Quest, but I would put it to you, not many people will choose to participate in or endorse a hero quest where the main "actor" is not even a cult initiate of the primary participant. Hero Quests are expensive in wealth and in magic, such that they are an enterprise for a whole community, and if they fail, the ill effects can curse that community for years to come. Most communities will thus go to a lot of trouble to choose the very best candidate to play a god's role, and to guarantee the very best chance of success they can manage. I would suggest that the tribe would certainly rush-initiate the Issaries fellow into Orlanth before the HQ.

So far the Red Moon Goddess has not tried to damage the Block, despite occupying Prax. Then again, who knows what would have happened if the Lunar sorcerers had chained all the beasts of Prax at the Paps, and the Glowline of the reaching Moon Temple that the dragonrise destroyed had touched the Block?

Firstly, it isn't going to work. Harrek should be modelled on pirate kings, and famously Edward Teach (Blackbeard) could leave his purse full of gold on the counter at any drinking hole in Port Royal and nobody would dare to touch it. This was because quite apart from his own fearsome reputation, Teach had hundreds of sailors spying for him who would instantly report any such transgression to their boss. It is likely that any plot to kill Harrek is already pre-detected and pre-infiltrated. Then there is the problem that Harrek is essentially more of a badass than Conan the Barbarian, and you can't really surprise him. And even if you do manage to slip him poison and he somehow dies of it, you won't get to destroy the body and he can just be resurrected that afternoon by the local Chalana Arroys. A superhero invariably has a party of personal retainers and supporters who are also extremely dangerous. If it were easy to kill a superhero, everyone would be doing it. Strangely, while plenty may try, nobody does it. Even the assassin token is very unlikely to succeed (16% if I remember the maths) in the KoDP boardgame, and those guys are professionals. Nah, murder by stealth is not going to intimidate the Wolf Pirates. Any schmoe might get lucky and sucker punch any one of them, and then they need their crewmates to intervene to remind the lucky schmoe that he ain't so lucky. The assassins will be reduced to paste and fed to the sharks. After that, the Wolf Pirates will just go and get Harrek resurrected. At worst they will elect Gunda to be the new commander if Harrek can't be resurrected. Harrek is no stoop, and can almost certainly resurrect himself however, straight out of the underworld in a short sweet hero quest. Even superheroes can't really kill other superheroes for long. It's a major undertaking even for other superheroes. That's one of the problems with the Hero Wars... everyone keeps coming back for another swing. You would literally have to pursue Harrek into the underworld and kill him over and over again until his spirit lost all connection to his identity. Even then, the Lunars did this to Sheng Seleris in their Lunar Hells, and it didn't quite take, but then, he was rescued. I would strongly advise having you own personal hellscape in order to keep Harrek properly contained, or it could go badly. No, let's just face the fact it is going to go badly. Jar-Eel couldn't kill him, and had to give her life to merely pacify him, and Jar-Eel is the Red Moon Goddess incarnate.

LOL, whatever man. It's just you are the one rushing to defend the counterfeit Templar devil imagery, and the only people who normally get upset about such things are Satanists in my experience. I honestly don't care if you worship the Devil or not.

I don't mean dead in a merely physical sense. I mean dead like Latin is a dead language. I mean that Nysalorism has a pathetic repertoire of mystical feats. 1. The ability to detect other illuminates. 2. Protection from divine judgement. 3. The limited ability to pass on Nysalorism. All this does is serve to turn illuminates into a form of mystical parasite that feeds on the worship of other gods. The fact that Lunars are passing out tapeworms notwithstanding, this is an adjunct to chaos worship, not a mystical tradition.

There are a lot of forms of mysticism that appear "wrong", but everyone has to make their own path, and every path is likely to include mis-steps. As to medieval mystics, well, just because they accept the idea of a personal god, doesn't mean they are not attempting to commune and achieve unity with the infinite. As to Dayzatar's monks, in the RQ:Gods of Glorantha preview edition, on page 186, in the last sentence of the first paragraph it definitely says that Dayzatar's priests rely on the secrets of Mysticism beyond normal understanding to maintain their belief. Now the fact that Solar Pantheon mysticism may have a different spin than that of the Eastern Pantheons is hardly surprising, given the huge distance separating them as well as the gulfs of culture and history. It is possible to follow a mystical path for a vast number of reasons and to a vast number of outcomes. Dayzatar's cult definitely has theistic elements and is part of a Theistic pantheon, but then mysticism is one of 4 magic styles, and even theist cults teach spirit magic and even sorcery on occasion (Lhankor Mhy and Chalana Arroy etc.), so why can't other hybrid forms exist that incorporate mysticism? Well that's easy... we lack a magic system for mystics to draw upon.

I would suggest that it is dangerous but necessary to study it. Much can go wrong potentially. Grave concern is not neutral. The injunction to "know thine enemy" is not equanimity, even if the threat is essentially a mindless natural phenomenon. If the skys start raining acid and dissolve your loved ones, would you be neutral? Also, radiotherapy is not something I would encourage anyone to have performed. Being bombarded with localized ionizing radiation to cure a cancer that may well be caused by ionizing radiation seems like the horrors of medieval medicine to me.

Xemela's miracle could not be performed by an individual sorcerer or theist, and yet it is. It was not a hero quest, but a single person performing magic beyond what a community could reasonable expect to perform. Now consider what Sartar's magical feats, which are unequivocally from Larnsting mysticism. On each occasion it is an individual performing magic that affects an entire community without involving a group ritual. These feats are heroic and memorable by their communities as they are not used to large scale mystical magic. Such events may well be less remarkable in Kralorela, but elsewhere they are a bit amazing and seem to break the rules of what is magically possible without reference to serious major practitioners like Zzabur. As we have established elsewhere, where there is a hero, there is often mysticism involved. Now for real world context, I fully accept that many if not most religions in our world will have a mystical sect involved in them. In the case of Xemela we could easily draw comparisons to Christian Mysticism/Martyrdom from the early church. This was all written at a time when the West was more Medieval Europe and less Zoroastrian in inspiration than it is now. I am going by the evidence I see emerging versus the ascetic tradition that defines much of real world mysticism. We can say this of secret societies. they are secret primarily because there is something they are up to that the body in power would consider criminal. Mostly this amounts to politics with a veneer of religion, and is more likely to represent some form of hidden insurgency, espionage ring or criminal enterprise. Now this sort of organization would potentially benefit from the magical protections that illumination would afford them, but at the risk of losing control of their membership once they have the liberation of illumination and have to be disciplined manually rather than by spirits of retribution. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the various rituals conducted by the Safelstran cults to call Arkat back into the world may have liberated Arkat's spirit, mask by mask, in a somewhat Ralzakarkish kind of way, until finally enough parts of the jigsaw are combined to finally bring Argrath to fruition, but we can't really know. In terms of secret societies, I think that illumination would serve as a very two-edged sword. As I have previously commented, they may be immune to detection and retribution, but they are also liberated from the control of the secret society, save that they send the boys around and bounce them off a wall, which is as likely to backfire as to intimidate and promote obedience. You see there is an intrinsic contradiction in expecting an illuminate to stay brainwashed, and the brainwashed are more useful to a secret society. On the other hand the God Learners literally edited the gods for all time. Compare that to the flimsy Bright Empire, or the pyramid scam of the EWF, or the Kralori who the Jrusteli conquered. Yes, the God Learners were hubristic, but it was a glorious hubris that nobody has come close to matching, and they were unequivoically more right than wrong about how Glorantha was put together. The Third Age exists entirely in their shadow. Radiotherapy is goddamn awful. It is a very blunt and inappropriate tool for treating cancer. I also loathe chemotherapy for much the same reason. These are 20th century treatments, and very last century. I would far prefer that newer more successful therapies like T-cell therapy were used. As for nuclear energy as a source of power, it has a terrible capacity for getting out of control. Few countries employing nuclear energy haven't suffered a substantial nuclear accident. As to high energy physics, well, studying dangerous things is one of the few ways we learn how to protect ourselves from them, so I'm fine with that.

In many ways this is the nub of the argument, isn't it? Thanks to Brooste we have some quotes. FWIW my take on the matter is that in the theist world, everyone belongs to a Pantheon. In your average settlement, you would be hard put to find a full congregation for a minor temple, but if everyone is effectively a lay member of each cult, then the entire clan can maintain multiple temples and become magically powerful. "But wait!" I hear you cry, "What about all the lay member tithes that would accrue?". Well it is very simple. As everyone will be initiated into one of the cults or another, the tithes become a symbolic bucket of pennies that gets passed from temple to temple as the various holy days arrive during the year. Paid once and then ultimately distributed at Sacred Time between all cults. This is the only way a single clan could maintain more than a single deity's temple. I suspect it is the only way to economically reconcile the facts we face. In this way, each member of the clan can advance in one or more cults as an initiate, despite there not being enough lay members to support their cult. It is also worth pointing out that the vast majority of people who are lay members only are in fact children. Kids will contribute to their clans economically to the best of their ability, but by serving as lay members, they also gain an understanding of the religions and their mysteries, so they can decide who they should ultimately try to initiate with upon their adulthood.

What is funnier still is that Dave outed himself as a Satanist. Not that I give a damn what people choose to believe, it's all part of the rich tapestry of humanity imo. I actually quite enjoy how the Satanists have been trolling the religious right in the USA.

So to reiterate, you are suggesting that you know more about Satanism than I do? As far as I am concerned that is a bit like saying that you know more about Qanon than I do.

Hang on, if it is theism, what is it worshiping? As to the results, well clearly you can turn into a fire breathing lizard man that strongly resembles a dragonewt/dragon. Sounds like results to me, given that this is the outward manifestation of some of what dragonewts do with draconic magic. I didn't say it was mystically valid, merely that while it was bad mysticism, that it wasn't entirely wrong or it would have no results to show for itself. Clearly it is a form of immanentism, which is mystical, and it is very body oriented, which is typical of mystic traditions. On the other hand it has obviously garbled the teaching and only focused on physical transformation secrets which is something sensible dragonewts take pains to avoid. So what do you say to a Celebrity Kabbalist who thinks they are getting results? The fact is, they are probably getting some teachings that are valid parts of existing traditions. On the other hand, they are likely getting a nice ego massage and their pocket picked as well, and could likely do better by reading a book on the subject. In short, I am not suggesting that IM is a great, good, or even mediocre draconic tradition. It is obviously a bad one, but it has survived since the Second Age for a reason, and while pedigree is no measure of validity, when you compare the IM to the Autarchs who criticize it while performing their own mutant form of theistic sorcery, you have to wonder who is fit to criticize. Clearly these people are turning into fire breathing lizardmen. How?

Please don't misunderstand my point. I am certain that there are many species of mysticism in the West. For example St. Xemela, who couldn't have pulled off that mass healing miracle without mysticism imo. just for openers. I have no doubt in my mind that there are multiple mystical sects in the West. I was suggesting that the so-called Arkat Cults that inhabit the city states of Safelster Lake are not mystical, and are likely mainly somewhat counterfeit. On the other hand, it may be that their odd rituals did actually cause Arkat's rebirth (Argrath), just not as they supposed it would happen. Or maybe the Hero Wars just begin when they begin? I agree with everything except the bit about God Learnerism being a disaster. Considering that most players indulge in it to some degree... I am happy that you wanted to adopt the nuclear radiation metaphor. I actually don't take a philosophically neutral stance towards gamma radiation. I could also argue (two-facedly) that as potentially nobody might survive a Nuclear War, how can it have moral implications? Who would be alive to complain about the morality? I worry that perhaps you might have this backwards. To elaborate... Are you seriously suggesting that nobody but an illuminate can talk about Chaos in a philosophically neutral fashion? If that is the case I must disagree. A Lhankor Mhy dissertation on Chaos in Cosmology can do exactly that without anyone needing to necessarily be illuminated, just by sticking to the facts. This is not what illumination is. One of the core experiences of all mystical traditions is that of experiencing "Oneness with Everything", and in Glorantha this has been pegged to the Infinity Rune I believe. I would also describe that experience as Immanent, not Transcendent. It is during this experience of undifferentiated consciousness when the lives and sufferings of other creatures are experienced that the mystic comes to the realization that their enemies need not be considered capital E-evil per se. They can look at Chaos creatures and forgive them for being the product of their harsh experience, and even feel compassion for them, but that is not the same as thinking that chaos is neither evil nor inimical, which is what the rules unequivocally say happens. Chaos monsters are almost always evil. Gamma Radiation is not evil as it has no intelligence to form an evil intention, but it is inimical to life. The Chaosium (previously the fountain of the Primal Plasma) was polluted by the Unholy Trio and is now factually inimical, and cannot produce anything that will help the world, and you can't just hero quest in and install a filter. An experience of Cosmic Oneness doesn't make you a moral imbecile, it might give you a sense of compassion towards chaos creatures, but it won't make you think chaos is okay. Your description of using mysticism to transcend the immaterial is both eloquent and correct imo. I would love to hear what you think a normal mortal mind is? Perhaps one that doesn't have 22 points of boosted INT, given what sorcerers want out of life? Firstly, there is a difference between liberty and license. The Red Goddess crossed that line riding the Crimson Bat, and every Lunar citizen who is illuminated and accepts Chaos needs to put their soul in the bat's mouth or be declared a hypocrite. As to whether Nysalor was a poor teacher or whether he belongs to a tradition debased by chaos, I would argue both apply. Now clearly the death of Nysalor has removed his provision of Rune Magic, which he no doubt possessed when alive, but really, illumination lets you join any cult, so no harm done, right? Also, is the Lunar Sphere really transcendent? I can't see it myself. In general terms I agree with what you have written here, but ultimately I strongly doubt that there is a Nysalori path of ultimate transcendence. I don't think Nysalor achieved that state, and thus I don't think he could ever teach it, and basically he was a Light Rune chaos monster. No, I meant what I said. Nysalorism is dead. The source of the teachings has died to this world and the next. He didn't transcend, he died. This is hardly surprising, given the fact that he was a created guru. Effectively Nysalor was the Krishnamurti of Glorantha but given dictatorial power, unlike Krishnamurti in this world. Nysalorism can only teach illumination. That is all that is left. When you join the Larnstings for example, you gain the power to Change. Nysalori gain no such power; their mysticism is the hijacking of other cults like a magical cuckoo or parasite. Sounds like a dead tradition too. Very much a one trick pony, just a very versatile trick. Yeah, a magical parasite that latches onto other cults, bypasses their spiritual protections, and allows the plundering of their secrets. That's not chaotic at all... Nope. I am interested to see what they have done. On the other hand, Dayzatar is supposed to be mystical, but his Cult write-up certainly isn't. I bought an advance copy of Gods of Glorantha (and proof read it), and Dayzatar is just like any other cult really, except it has "monks". It was a bit of a let down imo, as it provided no insight into why "monks" exist and why you would ever become one other than it is a form of retirement plan. Not very satisfactory imo. The Dragons are the ultimate mystics of Glorantha, and their children, the dragonewts, have no afterlife. They are immanence seeking transcendence one small step at a time. A True Dragon is both in the world and beyond the world. Without doubt, Nysalor's system of illumination is culled from the draconic part of his heritage, but is imperfect, as Nysalor was born to be all things to all people, and wound up being nothing and nobody. I guess that's a form of meditation on absolutes and relativity. I am not a fan of HQ. I respect what was attempted with HQ's take on Mysticism rules however, but I can see why the writers weren't happy also. If it were easy it would have already been done. Or are we just making it harder than it needs to be? I 100% guarantee that is not the case. Dayzatar is SUPPOSED to be THE Yelm Pantheon mystical tradition. I don't want to do a literature search to prove the point, but I wouldn't raise the point if I didn't know it to be true. Page 186 of the Gods of Glorantha preview lists him as being a master of purity and invisible wisdom, keeping himself in sacrosanct isolation, a master of ascetic purity removed from all worldly concerns. He is also notable for having monks, but no initiates, and all his followers are taken from other cults. Basically it looks, walks, and quacks like a duck, and elsewhere I know it lists Dayzatar as a mystic not theist tradition, though it clearly has both. I utterly disagree. Illumination is a terrible model for a living mystical tradition. Illumination is a corrupt end-point for a failed tradition that only continues to exists because it serves the ends of nasty in-world power gamers. It is also a really disrespectful take on Zen Buddhism. We can do better.

Are you suggesting you know Satanists better than I do? Because that is the crux of your point...

While it would take a lot of explanation, I think I understand exactly why Draconic magic harms a dragonewt's spiritual development, in depth, lore friendly. PM me if you are interested as it is barely relevant to this thread. Well... Except that the mimicry isn't exact, and it doesn't cover everything that Dragonewts can do, and Immanent Mastery can't do it all the time. So let me run this idea past you... Hykim and Mikyh are dragons, and the source of the Hsunchen tradition. Immanent Mastery behaves like a well developed form of Dragon Hsunchen cult, not like Draconic mysticism, but on the other hand, it may be that Shamanism is closer to Draconic Mysticism than some might like to admit, given the Hykim/Mikyh connection. So Immanent Mastery was based on something called the "10 Step Program" during the EWF for shortcutting the dragon path. Alternatively it was based on a God-Learner attempt to understand draconic mysticism in conquered Kralorela. The result is certainly not draconic magic as we know it. It all seems a bit like an MLM scam selling New Age self help admittedly. I think there needs to be some sort of core of actual knowledge in there however, or you couldn't get the effects at all.

I suspect that Immanent Mastery wouldn't need to start from scratch when dealing with a True Draconic tradition. I think that they have aspects of a true tradition in there, or they couldn't get the results they manage. I mean, arguably they are a form of Dragon Hsunchen, but the whole Charismatic Wisdom element suggests that there is something of a theory behind it too. Unequivocally they would have to change their practices substantially, but just because some of the teachings are badly wrong doesn't mean it is all necessarily worthless. It might be more akin to driving a dodgem car and thinking you can therefore drive a truck.