Larnsting(s) of the Sea?

[Sir_Godspeed]

Larnste is the Cosmic Court deity of change and motion. He is important to the Orlanthi, because he is the father of Kero Fin, and thus Orlanth's maternal grandfather. It is Orlanth's Larnsting Soul (his Secret/Inner Wind) which allowed him to do things that no other Storm deity did before him: form a tribe, convert allies from other tribes, hide away, flee, and regroup. The Orlanthi, at least the Heortlings, have since revered this aspect of Orlanth, and value cleverness, evasion, and subterfuge in the face of insurmountable odds or difficult problems, as much as they value outright bravery, brutality or tenacity. The Hendriki in particular are famous for their Larnsting secrets, which allowed them to survive both the Nysealorean Empire and the Empire of Wyrm's Friends.

Now, much of this is probably fairly well known to regulars here, so why am I doing this summary?

Larnste's main quality is change and movement, and aside from Air, I can't help but think that Sea is a good representative of this Rune/concept. So my question is this: do we know of any Sea deities with the Movement/Change runes? Or alternatively, do we know of any Sea deities that are either associated with Larnste by name (probably doubtful), or with change/movement in particular? Many of the Physical Sea deities (Neliom, Sshorg, etc.) take the form of dragons that bore or travel across the land, so that is arguably fitting. Others might be currents, essentially the liquid equivalent of winds or weather patterns , and we of course have Magasta, who while often depicted as monstrous, dark and dour, also does rotate the Whirlpool, in itself a kind of Movement Rune, I guess.

Anyway, this is just out of curiosity (and a desire to brainstorm something cool, as always).

Edited August 24, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[jajagappa]

17 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

So my question is this: do we know of any Sea deities with the Movement/Change runes?

Yes. Magasta the Churner. Engizi the Sky River. Oslira (and probably most other River Gods).  And of course Mastakos.

[scott-martin]

Many water entities have Movement. I'd even argue half seriously that the power is naturally associated with the element like Fertility and Earth . . . not a universal or necessary link (otherwise the existence of both runes would be redundant) but the relationship conceals inner truths in common. 

Storm in itself may actually compete with classic Movement as a kind of rival system, perhaps focused on Change instead. This might be the primeval "Larnste" philosophy that then passes to Orlanth (but significantly very few of his half-brothers) via direct inheritance from the mountain god. Orlanth then also acquires ownership of the mastakos(*) after defeating water at the Well of Wisdom, consolidating what we now consider the rune's two meanings.  

* A difficult term to translate. "Slippery consciousness" or "magic mirror" have both been proposed and rejected, along with, less seriously, "blue racer," "five-mile wheel," "stone of the philosophers" and (colloquially) "liberating mastery." Some scholars believe that the mastakos is not an entity but an attribute or even a heightened state those who drink from Daliath can command. Since most of these scholars are born triolini, their terminology may only apply as water-in-water and thus be untestable in normal terrestrial environments.

[davecake]

I would absolutely say that the Larnstings, and the ‘Larnstings of the sea’, are both connected to Mastakos. 

Note that the GoG preview, Mastakos has acquired powerful new shape hanging powers as well as his traditional teleport powers. I think very few of the Orlanthi (who really only deal with Mastakos as an associated deity of/subcult of Orlanth) have access to this magic, but Larnstings may. 

[Sir_Godspeed]

I've always had a fondness for wily, crafty characters, or characters who in other ways embody something that "breaks with the rules" (ie. changes the game in some way), so Larnste and Larnstings have always been sort of Dark Horse favorites of mine. I'd like to think the Mermen have all sorts if interesting takes on this, given that they *also* have a pantheon and mythic environment that is rife with incomprehensibly powerful monsters, dour fates and all that.

EDIT: I googled Mastakos to get a more thorough look into this, but google wondered if I meant "mas tacos". Not this time, google. Not this time.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[scott-martin]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

EDIT: I googled Mastakos to get a more thorough look into this, but google wondered if I meant "mas tacos". Not this time, google. Not this time.

Another fine avenue for translators to explore!

But a little more seriously, orthodox triolini look first to Magasta for the metaphysical "soul arranger" or psychopomp function. Maybe one of his many epithets is the Flow, the cosmic force that pulls us all back to the hole in the heart of the world for purification and recirculation. Some might say gravity, धर्म or άνάγκη. (Maybe "love" also comes close.) 

Weirder triolini undoubtedly have weirder ideas involving the role of Daliath on the far end of the cycle. Magasta churns and flows but Daliath learns and flows, so to speak, giving water people a system to make sense of the otherwise murky patterns of Change. Of course there are textual cues that the entire Daliath complex is an alchemical allegory, deploying Change for higher goals. Exploring these waters might tickle your fancy.

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

But a little more seriously, orthodox triolini look first to Magasta for the metaphysical "soul arranger" or psychopomp function.

The Maelstrom is the greatest downwelling into the Underworld, and beyond, so any soul or spirit bound that way just goes with the flow, and becomes one with it. That's the only afterlife considered by merfolk, which makes them quite distinct from most other Gloranthans (except for their bastard children, the Brithini). The concept of joining Daliath's Well of Wisdom does have some similarity to the One Mind.

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

Maybe one of his many epithets is the Flow, the cosmic force that pulls us all back to the hole in the heart of the world for purification and recirculation. Some might say gravity, धर्म or άνάγκη. (Maybe "love" also comes close.) 

I wonder whether this power was gifted to Magasta(kos) by Annilla when she plunged down after her husband Sky River Titan.

 

[scott-martin]

1 minute ago, Joerg said:

I wonder whether this power was gifted to Magasta(kos) by Annilla when she plunged down after her husband Sky River Titan.

The power of Up and Down (or rising water and falling water) seems to recur endlessly with them, from esoteric Heler (who also has Movement but probably plays only a limited role in triolini religion under that name) to the surface tension mysteries of Wachaza. Two forms of sa-metal. 

Maybe it's as "simple" as Lodril and Lorion doubling in an early cosmic cycle, not a conflict of Sky and Storm then but only falling and rising forces.

In this model of course the third blue eye that negotiates between them signifies the alchemist.

[Joerg]

While Lodril undoubtedly has a liquid home element, it isn't water. In fact, we have at least two quite bad interactions of phallic molten rock mountains and water, resulting in the citadel of Brass and Castle Blue. We have two beheaded mountain myths, one with an Earth Walker as beheader, the other with Argan Argar using the phallic spear on its original owner. Greetings from Eurmal...

Lodril's descent was balanced by Dayzatar's ascent.

Lorion's rise resulted from Yelm's fall.

 

[davecake]

Compare Cronisper, as fire energy descending from the Sky  to mate with the Earth/divine power descending. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

Castle Blue

where can i read about the origins of Castle Blue because I don't know its origins and it's long frustrated me

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

where can i read about the origins of Castle Blue because I don't know its origins and it's long frustrated me

The entry in the Guide (p.325, p.327) describes the castle. It probably appeared at the emergence of Lake Oronin from the explosion of Mt. Turos, or built by what remains of the volcanic god's heat at the command of the blue invader.

This could be more or less a repeat of the magics employed to creat the Brass Citadel of Sogolotha Mambrola.