Black Horse Troop stat block

[Dissolv]

Hey all,

 

I was looking to use some Black Horse Troop as potential conflict villains, but got stuck trying to define them.  Before I go off into "Your Glorantha May Vary", has there ever been a RQ:Gish compatible stab at a stat block for a reasonably generic representative of the Black Horse Troop prior to the Hero Wars?   Not Sir Ethilrist, but a lower ranking member that the PC's might more reasonably interact with.  And of course the Demon Horses are a big deal too but they are defined in the Bestiary on ppp 182-183, so not as much of a mystery these days.

I was also under the impression that the Horses could use the Riders like an allied spirit, but they seem to only know spirit magic (I am totally giving them all demoralize!), but nothing is really noted about that in the Bestiary.  

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

Other than Hero Wars, the only stats that I am aware of are the D&D-type description in 13G.

[Dissolv]

Well, I do appreciate the reply.  Looks like this remains a do-it-yourself area.  Time to see what I can do with a mix of sorcery and spirit magic users on top of some Demon Steeds.  

I supposed I should leave this here as well:

[Tindalos]

Well, it's pretty basic and hacked together, but here's a statblock that should hopefully be useful:

Quote

Black Horse Rider
Characteristics
STR 15    CON 14    SIZ 15    INT 13
DEX 12    CHA 12    POW 14
Hit Points: 15    Move: 8
DEX SR: 3    SIZ SR: 1
Runes: Darkness 80%, Death 80%
Spirit Magic: Detect Enemies, Fireblade 4
Magic Points: 14
Passions: Honour 60%, Loyalty (Sir Ethilrist) 70%, Loyalty (Black Horse Unit) 60%
Armour: Heavy Scale Hauberk (5 pts), Plate Greaves and Vambraces (6pts), Closed Helmet (5pts)
Skills: Battle 70%, First Aid 15%, Listen 50%, Ride (Black Horse) 85%, Scan 50%
Languages: Speak Seshnegi 60%, Speak Tradetalk 35%
Ransom: 500L

Black Horse Rider Hit Locations
Location    d20    Armour/HP
Right Leg    01-04    6/5
Left Leg    05-08    6/5
Abdomen        09-11    5/5
Chest        12    5/6
Right Arm    13-15    6/4
Left Arm    16-18    6/4
Head        19-20    5/5

Weapon        %    Damage        SR    Pts
Lance        70    1d10+1+1d4    0    10
Broadsword    70    1d8+1+1d4    2    12
Medium Shield    60    1d4+1d4        3    12

 

[Dissolv]

Well I mean, that's a good initial start.  But that's pretty basic for something from the legendary Black Horse Troop.   The problem comes defining the magic and general power levels of the riders.

I can definitely see Sir Ethilrist being a total @#$@#$@#$ of a boss and insisting on a superior cut of recruit, even if it kills a few, so a couple of stat point bumps makes sense.   But does the typical troop member use only spirit magic, or are there priests present (and temples in Muse Roost??) to various deities? Humakt I can totally see due to the "descended from Arkat", and description in the Guide on Vol.1, p. 186.  "Grim, fatalistic..."  But they all use Lances, so a couple of the geas' might get in the way, and I'm not too sure that they care that much about honor.  More importantly it is never mentioned in all the various references I have tracked down, so maybe not.  But can it really all be just spirit magic, or do they retain a sorcererous tradition?  Or maybe is this a widely varied group, magically?

Local recruits seem likely to come from Dragon Pass, which means Spirit Magic as the most likely base.  Even a last-chancer like someone outlawed and suffering cult spirits of retribution would have some spirit magic.  But would Sir Ethilrist accept such a recruit?   Are there taboo cults?  Can the troop teach some sorcery? The guide is silent on these points.  And then there is a more general question of how bad-assed are these guys?  Right now, a group of twenty Grazelanders with firearrow spells and fast horses would kill more PC's than the stat block listed above.  That's "just a guy", who happens to be on a Black Horse.   A respectable fighter sure, but Glorantha combat is very three dimensional.    However this is totally one way they might be. 

If the Rider is just a talented warrior with some spirit magic, then he would still have the advantage of prepping twice as fast -- because the Horse will be casting along with the Rider.  Then in combat, the fact that they put out three attacks a round (rider attack, Bite and Claw) will overwhelm low and mid level PC's pretty handily, due to the amount of damage each hit might do.  But a Rune level party will torch down even numbers with pure brute Rune magic, even with no Heroquesting to negate the Black Steeds.  A Humakti Rune Priest PC with a two handed Truesworded Greatsword and Sword Trance cast will inflict a TON of damage parrying the natural weapons of Black Horse, and won't much notice the 5 points of armor.    He'll make mincemeat out of this proposed version of a trooper plus his Black Horse.   And never mind the whole fact that you can get multiple infantrymen against a single cavalryman if they go shield wall, that's a straight up 1 PC versus Rider + Steed.  

On the other hand, if the BHT has a more significant magical tradition, especially one that may be unexpected and exotic, that can even things up more than a little!  Or perhaps 20+ points of stored POW to toss around.  This level of power may be unusual but one would expect a large group of say, Bison riders to be mainly initiates of Waha, with some spirit and Rune magic, and are also likely led by a Rune level leader, who is possibly a Storm Khan, or a shaman, or a Priest, and that person may have significant stored POW to help with a fight.  

Without a magical tradition, this version of the BHT has no means to counter a significant theistic attack, and will wind up playing the Indians in the PC's cowboy movie.  I'm not totally sure if that is right.....or wrong.

 

 

[Akhôrahil]

49 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

Well I mean, that's a good initial start.  But that's pretty basic for something from the legendary Black Horse Troop.   The problem comes defining the magic and general power levels of the riders.

Importantly, they will likely be thoroughly buffed with sorcery, if they’re in any state of preparedness, and more so still in a battle situation. Also, these are the “junior” riders, little better than appendages to their black horses - the seniors are vastly better.

Edited December 28, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

 

3 hours ago, Dissolv said:

But does the typical troop member use only spirit magic, or are there priests present (and temples in Muse Roost??) to various deities? Humakt I can totally see due to the "descended from Arkat", and description in the Guide on Vol.1, p. 186.  "Grim, fatalistic..."  But they all use Lances, so a couple of the geas' might get in the way, and I'm not too sure that they care that much about honor.  More importantly it is never mentioned in all the various references I have tracked down, so maybe not.  But can it really all be just spirit magic, or do they retain a sorcererous tradition?  Or maybe is this a widely varied group, magically?

Earlier attempts to describe Ethilrist's troop went about their way to make them a Malkioni community, which is where the name "Atroxic Church" comes from - a concept that in all likelihood won't reappear under that atroxious name, if ever. If you want to read up on this, get a copy of the Hero Wars rules (nowhere available in pdf, last I looked, but if you speak German, the remainder of a print run printed in France still is available) and turn to the character creation chapter, p.94 in the English original, following the Lunar character generation entries.

(That text has his arrival in the Night of Horrors, and his claim established against any Grazer dissent by 1545, i.e. during Palashee Longaxe's reign.)

Following the Night of Horrors, the main military exploits of the Empire appear to have been with Orlanthi barbarians under Provincial Overseers Phargentes and then Appius Luxius, and skirmishes with the Pentans in the Redlands. Ethilrist wil have seen most of his service in the Provinces, as his troop was too big to be hired for Dart Competitions.

 

3 hours ago, Dissolv said:

Local recruits seem likely to come from Dragon Pass, which means Spirit Magic as the most likely base. 

The HW write-up has replacement riders come up through the rank of the footmen that Ethilrist fields from the peasantry of his estates. These may well be vendref inherited from the previous Grazer overlords, or these may be the camp followers that he drew towards his troop during his time as mercenary for the Empire.

HW has all of them as mandatory followers of Ethilrist's Malkioni sect which demands strict obedience (what a useful cult for self-aggrandizement, right?).

For RQG, I would flip this into mandatory hero-worship, with prospective riders initiating to the hero cult and leaving behind whichever previous (vendref?) cults they may have had.

 

3 hours ago, Dissolv said:

Even a last-chancer like someone outlawed and suffering cult spirits of retribution would have some spirit magic.  But would Sir Ethilrist accept such a recruit?   Are there taboo cults?  Can the troop teach some sorcery? The guide is silent on these points. 

Other than his unswerving demand for absolute obedience, Ethilrist probably doesn't care much what cults his peasants follow. Barntar and Ernalda are good to keep his troopers and the "horses" fed. Yelmalio cultists might have a problem with all the hell stuff going on. Orlanthi will feel uncomfortable in the presence of the Hound.

 

3 hours ago, Dissolv said:

And then there is a more general question of how bad-assed are these guys?  Right now, a group of twenty Grazelanders with firearrow spells and fast horses would kill more PC's than the stat block listed above.  That's "just a guy", who happens to be on a Black Horse.   A respectable fighter sure, but Glorantha combat is very three dimensional.    However this is totally one way they might be. 

These are the troopers, prior to the boost ups from Ethilrist's sorcerers and priests. I would bet there will be some way for the dominant of the horse-rider pair to get Shield, possibly through the standard (the wyter). Sorcery might affect the standard with a protective circle, with Neutralize Rune for Storm, Earth, Fire, and Moon.

I don't really see the black horses and their servants coming at you with Fireblade on their lances (although preventing impales might be worth it on less armored opposition).

Ethilrist's magicians will probably send shades or other Hell spirits against their foes. And possibly the ghosts of riders who died in the saddle, with handy Hate passions.

 

3 hours ago, Dissolv said:

If the Rider is just a talented warrior with some spirit magic, then he would still have the advantage of prepping twice as fast -- because the Horse will be casting along with the Rider.  Then in combat, the fact that they put out three attacks a round (rider attack, Bite and Claw) will overwhelm low and mid level PC's pretty handily, due to the amount of damage each hit might do.  But a Rune level party will torch down even numbers with pure brute Rune magic, even with no Heroquesting to negate the Black Steeds.  A Humakti Rune Priest PC with a two handed Truesworded Greatsword and Sword Trance cast will inflict a TON of damage parrying the natural weapons of Black Horse, and won't much notice the 5 points of armor.    He'll make mincemeat out of this proposed version of a trooper plus his Black Horse.   And never mind the whole fact that you can get multiple infantrymen against a single cavalryman if they go shield wall, that's a straight up 1 PC versus Rider + Steed.  

On the other hand, if the BHT has a more significant magical tradition, especially one that may be unexpected and exotic, that can even things up more than a little!  Or perhaps 20+ points of stored POW to toss around.  This level of power may be unusual but one would expect a large group of say, Bison riders to be mainly initiates of Waha, with some spirit and Rune magic, and are also likely led by a Rune level leader, who is possibly a Storm Khan, or a shaman, or a Priest, and that person may have significant stored POW to help with a fight.  

Without a magical tradition, this version of the BHT has no means to counter a significant theistic attack, and will wind up playing the Indians in the PC's cowboy movie.  I'm not totally sure if that is right.....or wrong.

The riders are more or less puppets of their horses, a way for the horses to aim their lances. Shield or similar may be cast by the standard on those groups facing the enemy champions, with after-battle donations of POW to bring the standard back to full strength.

The horses may have spirits to heal first themselves, then their riders.

WIth the standards' sorcery negating many of the most typical elementals and magical gunnery like Lightning and Thunderbolt, rune lords will be limited to individual prowess. And yes, Humakti may go down in a blaze of glory, taking along dozens of riders.

[Tindalos]

10 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The HW write-up has replacement riders come up through the rank of the footmen that Ethilrist fields from the peasantry of his estates. These may well be vendref inherited from the previous Grazer overlords, or these may be the camp followers that he drew towards his troop during his time as mercenary for the Empire.

HW has all of them as mandatory followers of Ethilrist's Malkioni sect which demands strict obedience (what a useful cult for self-aggrandizement, right?).

For RQG, I would flip this into mandatory hero-worship, with prospective riders initiating to the hero cult and leaving behind whichever previous (vendref?) cults they may have had.

The RQ:G description of BHC (116-117) confirms the farmers are Vendref (and that the troop arrived during Phargentes' reign.)

While from Ralios originally, it wouldn't surprise me if Ethilrist's original White Horse Troop was some form of war society (given western Safelster has often ended up conquered by them, and in the second age all were part of the Middle Sea Empire) with the horse as the totem beast. With the shift to Black Horses, this would change things, but ultimately it's still a similar martial brotherhood revering an equine beast with spirit magic (and maybe rune magic, I think I recall Jeff saying something about Malkioni soldiers having some?)

[scott-martin]

4 hours ago, Tindalos said:

revering an equine beast

One reason I've started looking at them is to resolve contradictory cavalry caste restrictions in the terminal third age, so this fits right in. For apocalyptic drama I wonder if the BHT wyter is actually the Hound, which would convert its reservoir of stored POW into devastation if ever released. 

Not a whole lot of time today but using WBRM counters as a rough gauge the elite mounted troops should be about as tough as the Full Moon Corps or a unit of minotaurs, beaked "soldier" dragonewts or Tusk Riders. Their real advantage is one of the best movement factors on the board. The infantry might be the cadet branch waiting to inherit somebody's steed or simply how these guys fight on their feet. In the boardgame they're about as tough as a lot of units like centaurs, Pony Breeders, Tarsh Exiles. Tough guys but not hugely noteworthy. Of course the game can be wrong.

They would ordinarily be a great experiment for someone looking to model relatively population-bounded battlefield sorcery. (We know there are 2600 steeds or about 500 per cavalry counter, which scales back to about 1000 of the infantry / cadets and 3500-3600 troops in total, enough to support a few full-time sorcerers.) But I don't know if Ethilrist supports any real magical firepower except what it takes to maintain his situation . . .the Hound can take a bite out of Harrek but nobody else on that team seems to be able to achieve a Wound. (The Ethilrist counter is ambiguous.) 

I think his real Arkatic heresy melts caste restrictions and allows pacts with strange gods so they might not have specialist sorcerers beyond the Temple at all.

EDIT as for "countering a significant theistic attack," I like the stats here but in the boardgame they do have a slight edge on most tough secular units in terms of magical defense. I suspect this is relatively heavy iron.

Edited December 28, 2019 by scott-martin

[Dissolv]

Quote

For RQG, I would flip this into mandatory hero-worship, with prospective riders initiating to the hero cult and leaving behind whichever previous (vendref?) cults they may have had.

This sounds like a winner, although it isn't clear to me what, if any divine magic might be appropriate vs. access to sorcery from the cult.  I can definitely see major artifacts and potent sorcerers at the upper levels of the Troop.   But that wasn't totally where I was going with this.  If the rider is just a competent warrior, and dependent on the Black Horse for serious bite, then a small detachment would indeed be a highly manageable problem for some competent PC's. 

I'm not so sure about the use of iron in quantity, mainly because that should be something noteworthy enough to have been recorded.  I would rather suspect that any magical, or spiritual defense would come from the banners/unit level magic.  I mean, how do you invade hell without a means to defend against spirits?  Seems like that should be covered somehow, although it may not be the responsibility of the individual trooper beyond typical power sacrifice.

The presence of sorcery I still can't shake mentally for some reason.  This may also be the only way for a non-Lunar, non-Lhankor Mhy sorcery presence to make any sense in the Pass region, which may be one of the reasons I want it to be so, as opposed to established lore, which is very vague about particulars. 

Edited December 28, 2019 by Dissolv

[scott-martin]

32 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

which may be one of the reasons I want it to be so, as opposed to established lore

I hear that! They are a gateway to the West . . . admittedly a profoundly heretical version but still this is how sorcery gets in front of the players.

I do think they have iron though. Will go back to the old Arkat rules next week and see how that stuff worked in RQ2 unless someone pipes up faster.

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, scott-martin said:

One reason I've started looking at them is to resolve contradictory cavalry caste restrictions in the terminal third age, so this fits right in. For apocalyptic drama I wonder if the BHT wyter is actually the Hound, which would convert its reservoir of stored POW into devastation if ever released. 

The Hound and the Cloak are sacrificial artifacts that can be used by Ethilrist once per campaign. But then, a SMU magician unit losing their wyter still remains a decent military force.

 

5 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Not a whole lot of time today but using WBRM counters as a rough gauge the elite mounted troops should be about as tough as the Full Moon Corps or a unit of minotaurs, beaked "soldier" dragonewts or Tusk Riders. Their real advantage is one of the best movement factors on the board. The infantry might be the cadet branch waiting to inherit somebody's steed or simply how these guys fight on their feet. In the boardgame they're about as tough as a lot of units like centaurs, Pony Breeders, Tarsh Exiles. Tough guys but not hugely noteworthy. Of course the game can be wrong.

The boardgame has an awful lot of those mounted units, which makes me doubt the "500 riders per unit" ratio for the Black Horse Troop counters. Perhaps a century of nightmares per unit, which would still mean that there are slightly less than 1000 demon horses that need to be fed meat on a daily basis, and I wonder whether they will be satisfied by a diet based on pork. But then, if they can hunt down the prey in their feeding paddocks and devour it mostly (residually) alive, maybe yes, at least for normal days.

 

5 hours ago, scott-martin said:

 I don't know if Ethilrist supports any real magical firepower except what it takes to maintain his situation . . .

All engaged in buffing up their master and his favored minions, I suppose.

 

5 hours ago, scott-martin said:

EDIT as for "countering a significant theistic attack," I like the stats here but in the boardgame they do have a slight edge on most tough secular units in terms of magical defense. I suspect this is relatively heavy iron.

It could be protective circles on the units standards.

[Tindalos]

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

I hear that! They are a gateway to the West . . . admittedly a profoundly heretical version but still this is how sorcery gets in front of the players.

I do think they have iron though. Will go back to the old Arkat rules next week and see how that stuff worked in RQ2 unless someone pipes up faster.

There's a picture in the guide of the Black Horse Troop with armour of hardened leather or bronze scales, with Ethilrist being described as garbed similarly to the others (excepting the lack of helmet)

They should probably have sleeves rather than plated arms, but I felt that was a fair upgrade given it's starting heavy cavalry equipment.

5 hours ago, scott-martin said:

One reason I've started looking at them is to resolve contradictory cavalry caste restrictions in the terminal third age, so this fits right in. For apocalyptic drama I wonder if the BHT wyter is actually the Hound, which would convert its reservoir of stored POW into devastation if ever released.

Really the Hound probably doesn't need any more help. It's description in Wyrm's Footnotes #2 has it doubling in size on every bound of its Doom Run, as it heads home to the underworld. It usual size is merely that when Ethilrist suppresses it, and when it reaches the edge of the world it's the size of creation. (Explaining why it's so dangerous to get in its path)

 

3 hours ago, Dissolv said:

The presence of sorcery I still can't shake mentally for some reason.  This may also be the only way for a non-Lunar, non-Lhankor Mhy sorcery presence to make any sense in the Pass region, which may be one of the reasons I want it to be so, as opposed to established lore, which is very vague about particulars. 

IMG, I'd say they keep the castes somewhat separate.

• Curelan: The vendref citizens of Black Horse County, they provide food and other resources to the other castes.
• Ridderan: The members of the Black Horse Troop itself. While many of them are recruited from the ranks of the workers, some are former outlaws, or worthy opponents who pledged to serve Ethilrist in exchange for survival. Despite the name, not all of them ride the demonic steeds, but all of them hold the fiends as their totem beast. Maybe they keep their worship of their previous gods, I could see that working. In which case the troop is even more terrifying, with Humakti, Zorak Zorani, and other grim cults who are normally rivals serving the same goal.
• Zoberan: These are the wizards of the county. I imagine their main school is a descendant of Barmalani combat sorcery, with Boon of Kargan Tor, Dampen Damage, Ward Against Weapons, and Neutralize Armour as commonly known spells. There may also be a sorcerous school like the HW Order of Damnation concerned with dealing with demons. Summoning and breeding the black horses and hell hounds along with magic related to shades and nyctalopes (who may be related to the goblins of WBRM)
• Herrelan: Only Ethilrist.

Ridderan was used in the Sartar companion, and the others all make sense as having origins elsewhere. (Curelan being a corruption of the native vendref term for a freeman. Zoberan is obviously derived from Zzaburi. And Herrelan may show Ethilrist's last shred of humility, deriving from the Horali caste which as a mercenary captain, he may have been a member of)

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

there are slightly less than 1000 demon horses

The RQG Bestiary (my new source of choice for all things Ethilrist) says there's a hard limit of 2600 and a waiting list, which breaks down to about 500 steeds per cavalry counter and the remaining two infantry counters might be aspirants. Pork is often an option in this part of the world! I wonder if they will eat Golden Horse if given the chance.

1 hour ago, Tindalos said:

There's a picture in the guide of the Black Horse Troop with armour of hardened leather or bronze scales, with Ethilrist being described as garbed similarly to the others (excepting the lack of helmet)

I could whine and say this is their travel dress because he isn't on the Hound . . . but who packs two sets of armour? I'm not married to him having a lot of iron after all his travails but now the Troop's unusually high (defensive) Magic Factor is nagging at me. It says something about their support that the board game's mostly theistic magicians have a harder time affecting them. So how does that work? 

1 hour ago, Tindalos said:

• Herrelan: Only Ethilrist.

These are great. No talars or "telleran!" Again, I don't yet know the specific nature of his heresy, but suspect his arrogation of the archaic Sidi or Sâr is revelatory in itself. 

[Akhôrahil]

55 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Pork is often an option in this part of the world!

Also long pork after a battle, one would imagine...

(That's a terrifying image - black horses bestriding the battlefield in a light mist, feeding on the dead and dying...)

Edited December 28, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

(That's a terrifying image - black horses bestriding the battlefield in a light mist, feeding on the dead and dying...)

So obviously a correct one!

Not as bad as allying Delecti or the scorpionmen though.

[scott-martin]

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

So obviously a correct one!

Not as bad as allying Delecti or the scorpionmen though.

The West is the . . . best.

[Dissolv]

Thanks guys,

Based on the comments here I am going with the "more or less ordinary skilled heavy cavalry" for the riders.  Spirit magic as the dominant spell type, but with the possibility of a junior sorcery or just having a long term sorcery buff from someone or something else from time to time.   The Black Horses are weaker than I had imagined, but that's probably okay because it makes them a serious, but potentially solvable problem.  The heavy duty summons, sorcery, and other magic I am restricting to support type officers, unit wyters/standards, or some deus ex Ethilrista that he has laying around. 

[scott-martin]

So this may or may not be funny . . . when Chaosium was developing what would become the RQ3 West trainee-level horalites were taught two special skills: Sense Magic and Dispel Magic (as the spell, no cost but anything over 1 point of spell gets exponentially hard). Then the adult warriors got what I have been calling "iron" with their choice of Countermagic, Protection or Spirit Shield inherent in the armor. More rarefied ranks could train better Dispel and ultimately sacrifice for permanent Dispel (range 15 m.)

YGWV. The horalites got other exotic abilities in some drafts like enhanced weapons skills with high DEX and CON if that makes the BHT cooler for you. I think that's already reflected in Tindalos' build though.