Your Dumbest Theory

[Joerg]

On 7/6/2023 at 11:51 PM, mfbrandi said:

• Pavis Wood is an area of woodland on a hill located near Hastoe in Tring, north-western Hertfordshire, England.
  — Pavis Wood

Pity it isn't the Pavis Garden...

 

On 7/6/2023 at 11:51 PM, mfbrandi said:

So, which hellhole of the Wastes do we equate with Grays in Essex?

On the outer estuary of a major river? Whatever could come to mind?

Spoiler

There is a hint in the formatting...

 

[mfbrandi]

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

Whatever could come to mind?

Spoiler

“Except the location sucked, the money ran out, and eventually even the promoter was happy to sell his shares at a loss just to get away from the damn marsh bugs.”

 

[mfbrandi]

Sweet Mistress Mallia looks forward to the return of the good times:

“[A]bout 1.3 billion years from now. Long after animals have wandered the earth, and even after the dramatic microcosm of the eukaryotic microbe universe is gone, bacteria will inherit the planet for a few hundred million years more, just as it was in the beginning.” — Peter Brannen, The Ends of the World

[John Biles]

On 7/6/2023 at 6:52 AM, mfbrandi said:

Eighth Wane Spiritual Exploration as arms race.

When Oppy said, “Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds,” I don’t think he meant that the Manhattan Project was an example of spiritual exploration. And I like to think that he was not acquiescing to the duty handed him, but expressing horror at what he had done. Call me a sentimental old fool if you must.

——————————————————————————————
I AM TIME, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
Even before you act, all these warriors,
rank upon rank in the opposing armies,
are already dead. I have destroyed them.
From the perspective of eternal time,
the everlasting present,
those men you see lined up, eager for battle,
full of the vigour of their youth and strength,
are dead already.
The bodies which have known cold and heat,
pleasure and suffering, already carry
death and decomposition in their bones.

“The Pandavas will be victorious. Now
rise up, hero. Be my instrument!”

— Mahabharata, A Modern Retelling, Carole Satyamurti, p. 418
——————————————————————————————

Krishna as Gbaji, and not in a good way.

I'd say Krishna as Humakt; there's no deception going on here.  It's him reminding a member of the warrior caste that killing is his business and he should not hesitate to stack the bodies to the ceiling.

This could also be part of the Abiding Book, aimed at the warrior caste.

 

[mfbrandi]

58 minutes ago, John Biles said:

It's him reminding a member of the warrior caste that killing is his business

He is doing that but clearly the appeal isn’t working, so K resorts to:

• you may as well kill them as they are dead already
• look at me, I am the supergod

… which go beyond that and are very poor reasons for Arjuna to change his mind. (Which is not to say the appeal to Varna is not also … unpersuasive.)

And after all, Gbaji was “Humakt’s son”. 😉

[John Biles]

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

He is doing that but clearly the appeal isn’t working, so K resorts to:

• you may as well kill them as they are dead already
• look at me, I am the supergod

… which go beyond that and are very poor reasons for Arjuna to change his mind. (Which is not to say the appeal to Varna is not also … unpersuasive.)

And after all, Gbaji was “Humakt’s son”. 😉

What source calls him Humakt's son?

 

 

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

And after all, Gbaji was “Humakt’s son”. 

That's Arkat. 

[mfbrandi]

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

That's Arkat.

Just so.

[DrGoth]

A dumb theory (but hardly my dumbest)

Nysalor's curse on the trolls (and dragonewts) was just a baby's massive dummy spit.

"Wah! What do you mean they don't like me?! Wah!  Where's my bottle? Wah! I hate them. I hate them. I hate them. Wah."

He was only about three at the time.

[mfbrandi]

18 hours ago, Lordabdul said:

a mural of Orlanth stealing shit from the trolls

I can picture it now: Orlanth legs it pushing his honeywagon surrounded by giant flies and with a gang of angry Uz in pursuit.

But what is troll shit good for? I am guessing it is not good fertiliser. There are easier ways to make wattle and daub. Must be something magical …

[scott-martin]

On 7/8/2023 at 6:39 PM, John Biles said:

This could also be part of the Abiding Book, aimed at the warrior caste.

I love this because it assumes that either those people can read or a reader / liturgist is willing to risk caste transgression in order to read it to them, exposing themselves to an apparently sincere explication of the horalite ethos in the process. MG favors the former but the latter scenario is also intriguing.

--------------

There were whole dragon forests once, whole plant systems that embraced the mysteries of utuma. These were the mothers of the dragon grains that no longer exist except in rumored lost caches of mind-melting dragon bread. But this is why Sartarite scholarship obstinately classifies elf and dragonewt studies in the same academic department, forcing them to compete for the same budget and grants.


 

[JRE]

The interpretation of Shiva as Time rather than Death is more poignant in Glorantha, as some people are able to reject Time's influence in a limited way, so they will ignore the simmetry in the saying. In the original form the Hero is as dead as the opposing soldiers, if you take the long view. But in Glorantha there are ways to cheat time. And that will be specially clear to any Brithini Horali.

I would consider Krishna, or whoever teaches the philosophy to the Horali, to be a Talar intermediary, and within his functions both educating the Horali and being read the philosophy by a Zzaburi. I am pretty sure they can read, but tradition requires that such a document is formally read once by a zzabur. The Talar can then claim to remember perfectly, while refreshing his memory as needed.

On the other hand, I expect their emphasis on the Abiding Book and Hrestoli progression, as well as simple efficiency, would have the Jrusteli Marines being well educated and able to read and discuss complex ideas, as they are already learning sorcery. I expect the Jrusteli to graduate thousands of Men-of-All every year to administrate and expand the Empire, approaching Education systematically as the path to power. 

The Jrusteli Man-of-All response would be to accept the saying, but consider their aim is not to become a hero, and therefore an instrument of the divine (as a Horali would do), but to become the speaker, and wield the power of the gods themselves.

The Anti-Oppenheimer.

[scott-martin]

14 minutes ago, JRE said:

Krishna, or whoever teaches the philosophy to the Horali, to be a Talar intermediary

I love this because you could be talking about Sar Hrestol himself, recognizing the interiority of the horalite caste and even a spiritual yearning.

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, JRE said:

The Jrusteli Man-of-All … their aim is not to become a hero and therefore an instrument of the divine … but to become the speaker and wield the power of the gods themselves.

The way of the Gloranthan hero seems to be to bend the gods to their will in order to carry out the hero’s psycho master plan, no? Even to the extent that Arkat “invents” Zorak Zoran as a stick maul with which to beat Nysalor.

So … it may be true that the hero’s will is the god’s will, but the tail is doing the wagging. Is there some level of self-deception in this? If there is, I think I would rather throw my lot in with the Jrusteli (who at least know the responsibility is theirs to take) than a “theist” hero — someone so nuts, so driven, that the insight that there is no other side in the conflict, no cosmic bad guy, doesn’t even slow them down, is just viewed as one more weapon in the fight. “It is not my fault. I am merely an instrument of the god’s will.”

But … clear-eyed pragmatist is just one take on the Jrusteli, no? This being Glorantha, there must be a take on them in which they are psycho fanatics, too — just the Puritan version? But I like to think we can embrace the hardcore deist take: the cosmic clockwork is set ticking and all else is NatSci: there is no interaction with the truly divine for the godlearners, as the Invisible God has been unreachable since before there was anyone to even think about reaching. (And to the extent that this plays to the Westerner–Mostali parallels and embodies a philosophy Greg would probably think deserves squishing, it is maybe not an unfaithful take.)

Krishna isn’t the angel on Arjuna’s shoulder but the devil, and he is pulling out all the stops to get one person to bin their scruples. (Devils always play to our vanity — “you are special; I must persuade you” — when it would seem they could corrupt dozens with less effort … or a spambot.) So taken at face value — Krishna/Vishnu is a real presence talking to Arjuna — this seems like the opposite of the Gloranthan case where “illuminated” heroes are manipulating gods and cults to get their killing done (presumably still on Highway 61).

[Dilute to taste.]

[Ormi Phengaria]

36 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Is there some level of self-deception in this? If there is, I think I would rather throw my lot in with the Jrusteli (who at least know the responsibility is theirs to take) than a “theist” hero — someone so nuts, so driven, that the insight that there is no other side in the conflict, no cosmic bad guy, doesn’t even slow them down, is just viewed as one more weapon in the fight. “It is not my fault. I am merely an instrument of the god’s will.”

Quote

...Mark that the inside of the glove may be smooth, but the outside be rough. So might it be that this Plane is the same and yet different, perhaps not just once but many times, for all things will have a start, a stop, and a new beginning. The forces do set well in balance...

...The Silence, the wonder of the world to come, became the Howling Rage, the Mountain Stabber...

This I see as tragic, but not tainted with the evil which came from Wakboth the Devil at origin; the tears of the world come in this way: that which was beautiful and good outside this Plane become foul and fearsome once brought to us.

—Four Horrors Fragment, Salonar Tamaskil

Quote

I have experienced it, I have been a god, I have been Death, I have been a monster, and so I shall continue to do what I have pledged to do.

There is no abdication of mortal agency to the gods in the Hero, and yet they are participants in divine power and drama. That is exactly their terror and their liberation.

[mfbrandi]

Immanuel was originally part of a loose agglomeration of churches established in the late 1960s by the followers of the London Brothers … practising non-traditional forms of worship in which priestly authority was questioned and miracles such as speaking in tongues and healing the sick were commonplace. Immanuel’s version of Christianity was urgent, even sexy … Part of the attraction of these signs and wonders, at least for a teenage boy, was the sense of spiritual mission they seemed to indicate. The literature that accompanied the revival movement evoked impending apocalypses, which — with their marauding devil armies and the righteous standing firm — sounded a lot like the endgame of a Dungeons & Dragons campaign.

— Jon Day, A Bit Like a Pot Plant
———————————————————————————————

Wrong RPG, perhaps?

From the same source: “McNaught first encountered the Nigerian preacher T.B. Joshua on samizdat VHS tapes shared among the Immanuel congregation in the late 1990s.” Another use for truestone recordings than Star Wars “only hope” messages?

And: “Half a mile north, on an industrial estate, are three Pentecostal churches whose names – Deliverance Outreach Ministries, Christ United Ministries, the CCC Founder’s Parish UK – feel slightly at odds with their scruffy exteriors.” it would seem that the first two haven’t thought through their acronyms — DOM and CUM — but perhaps they know exactly what they need to do to appeal to our jaded imaginations.

Is there a danger that IRL religion is more exciting than the Gloranthan version — where we are all just wearily shopping for the punchiest spells and true charisma counts for nothing? And then cynical seen-it-all PCs start to daydream of joining Vivamort or Thanatar to get their edge back. “Yeah, but have you got anything, you know, … stronger?”

[mfbrandi]

23 minutes ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

There is no abdication of mortal agency to the gods in the Hero, and yet they are participants in divine power and drama. That is exactly their terror and their liberation.

Terror — fine.
Liberation — from what?

As for our apocryphal bit of Arkatness:

——————————————————————
The Great Mystery is not subject to rational understanding. It can only be experienced. Only those who have experienced the mystery can meaningfully speak of it; only those who have been a god can meaningfully understand the dangers of divinity. The Great Mystery cannot be dissected or reduced, it simply is. I have experienced it, I have been a god, I have been Death, I have been a krjalki (monster), and so I shall continue to do what I have pledged to do.
[Emphasis mine]
——————————————————————

What is going on here? Is Arkat trying to justify himself — “and so” — or not? If he is and King Nralar has not been a god, then he seems to be on a hiding to nothing: “I have had this experience you cannot understand, and that justifies my actions.” That won’t impress them in Missouri. It is not even clear that Arkat can use his experience to justify anything to himself. So bad faith or self-deception (or plain ignorance) seem to be in play. But what do I know?

Of course, Apocrypharkat could just be saying, “I have been a god; screw you!” No pretence to justification or explanation, just insolence or arrogance and power-tripping.

“What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence.” And yet “it” seems to be what we all like to bang on about most of all, and if language cannot go on holiday in a game, where can it?

[Ormi Phengaria]

Why should it be a justification at all? "And so" is what the rationalists understand: cause, then effect. "Mystery, and then my actions." What we cannot speak about to others who have not seen what we have seen we can still speak around plenty, and this is a skill required to genuinely engage with and understand perspectives which are alien to us. This defines Arkat.

[Ormi Phengaria]

(It also, of course, defines Nysalor. The Riddle is the refined power of speaking around the ineffables of another until they can see the outlines and come to know them and accept them. And, as you suspect, some people do have their insecurities stoked by this, and lash back against what they perceive to be at best naivety, self-styled and false wisdom.)

[mfbrandi]

9 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

a skill required to genuinely engage with and understand perspectives which are alien to us

True stories are the ones to be regarded with the wariest eye … especially if told by me … and especially if the events recounted happened at the arse end of the 1980s and have had decades to ferment. Still, I am that merry wanderer of the night … and so:

• Brandi:
  I think I must be an idiot,
  because I cannot make sense of half the things you two say.
   
• Jen & Steve:
  We think we must be idiots,
  because you cannot make sense of half the things we say.

[mfbrandi]

On Marina Warner on myth:

We are paradoxically soothed by thinking that violence, aggression and cruelty are ‘natural’ at the same time as we are made wary and defensive. We are rendered paranoid – about animals and people. The Monster is going to return. There is always the Monster. One of the most appealing – most passionate – aspects of Managing Monsters is Warner’s plea for recognition of the falsehood of the objectified ‘Monster’. The Monster is ourselves. Efforts to exterminate the brutes will only increase our pathetic monstrosity. The more fear and anxiety we feel, the more stupid and cruel we become.

— Margaret Anne Doody, Fear of Rabid Dogs

[DrGoth]

On 7/11/2023 at 1:26 AM, scott-martin said:

I love this because you could be talking about Sar Hrestol himself, recognizing the interiority of the horalite caste and even a spiritual yearning.

Could Sir Ethilrist be a corruption of Sar Ethilrist?

[AlHazred]

Most of you are completely ignoring the métier of the thread, "Your DUMBEST Theory."

Oppenheimer/Krishna/Orlanth similitudes are too SMART.

[Ormi Phengaria]

If the dwarfs got everyone on Glorantha to jump at the same time, the percussive maintenance would fix the World Machine. This was the actual reason for the Sunstop: Harmonious All-Cosmic Time for the Big Thwack. They just couldn't agree on where to put the Prime Meridian, and it all went to Hell.

In a very special part of the Underworld, if you untie a knot of winds, others will hear belching for miles around Dagori Inkarth.

There are no such things as Bad Dogs. Only Bad Gods.

Elves reproduce by internal fertilization. The females give birth to a coconut-sized hard seed which is planted in a secret place. The seed, carefully tended by the parents, sprouts a stalk and leaves, etc. and eventually produces a large fleshy fruit. The fruit enlarges in size. When it is ripe, the parents open it and within is a small elf child.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Ormi Phengaria

[Ormi Phengaria]

People are always asking Eurmal: where did you get balls like that? And he just smiles mysteriously, in the way the gods do. I have for you today the answer: he stole them from Yelm while he was out hunting grey mice, which are by the way the Emperor's favourite food, but that wise-eye saw it happening and gave chase. Of course the two greatest balls dropped immediately, those being the Half-Pecked Eyeball and the Munificent Solar Rotundity which would later be turned into the Golden Platter Serving Roast Eagle when Eurmal the Shish Kebab made his most daring escape.

The rest he made off with in a giant sack, becoming the richest and therefore greatest man of all the world, up until the poorly-stitched sack tore and the Little Balls of Fire tumbled to the earth, imbuing the worthy and unworthy alike with that power of witnessing. One by one, he's slowly been plucking his treasures back from those who don't see their worth, and stockpiling them in a cave, the much superior technology of "hoarding" being invented after this grand heist and loss.