Your Dumbest Theory

[Joerg]

Inside Out (also part 2) is a good explanation how the Red Emperor composed of the Egi works.

[mfbrandi]

• Dorthar, the dragon land, Dorthar the dragon’s head, the mountains its jagged crest, the lake Ibron its white eye, Koramvis its thinking jewel of a hub, the heart-brain. The city[’s] … foundations, bisected by a river, lay in the farthest recesses of time; … she was in part a remembrance, a physical creation burdened by essential legend, her ancestry a charred place where the Storm gods had come out of heaven, riding in the bellies of pale dragons.
  — Tanith Lee, The Storm Lord (chapter two, © 1976)

I picked this up to read on the train, yesterday, and was immediately struck by a few things:

• Dragons in the landscape? — Check.
• Storm gods? — Check.
• A red moon? — Check.
• Half-snake half-human? — Everybody has those.
• People riding zebras? — Will “zeebas” suffice?
• Alynx? Kalinx.

All just coincidence, of course, but it made me wonder why no fiction by women made it into RQ2’s Appendix N. The more recent Gloranthan Readings includes Nancy Sanders as a translator, but that seems to be it. Maybe I missed something.

Edited July 23 by mfbrandi
cats

[mfbrandi]

• The point of the Invisible God is to be invisible — functionally equivalent to no god at all. “Creation” must shift for itself. No divine help. No divine punishment. Not even a card on your birthday.
   
• As God is radically unknowable, the history of Malkionism is a history unwarranted assertion and backsliding into superstition and paganism. There is no god but God, and Malkion is his prophet? — Malkion cannot know “God’s will”: it is impossible (or more likely nonsense). If the Aeolians are terrible Malkioni, aren’t all Malkioni terrible Malkioni?
   
• Unable to face up to their own religious vision, the Malkioni commit the cardinal sin of inscribing their values on the world as purported laws of nature: breaking the rules leads to death and disempowerment; if you follow the rules, you will survive even death. It is the sin of Karl Marx: this should happen -> this will happen.
   
• Like Wakboth, the IG has no cult: neither can be contacted … possibly for different reasons. If you meet someone who claims to have the skill Worship (Invisible God), be suspicious. Hell, be afraid. Something is up.

[Nevermet]

IMG Malkioni religion is grounded in natural theology: to understand nature is to understand God and God's will.  Now, some versions of Christianity (Catholicism) like natural theology, and a few (Karl Barth!) denounce it.  The Malkioni, though, are heavily grounded in it.  The only exception is Malkion's initial revelation, but beyond that, it claims no revelation and almost no divine intervention.  The question of imposing values on nature vs developing one's values from nature is the big issue.  I think in retrospect very few will defend where the GLs ended up.  Heh... now I'm thinking about the Is/ought fallacy as a path to illumination for Malkioni, but I'll worry about that later.

 

Anyway, the Aeolians are terrible Malkioni in a qualitatively different way than, say, the Rokari, to the extend that they try to get out of the box of natural theology and start equating specific deities with the IG.  That'd mean the Aeolians are terrible Malkioni in a way similar to how Carmanians, the Chariot of Lightning, and (maybe) the Asharans (if they still exist).

 

The Rokari are terrible Malkioni for completely different reasons.  And in addition to being terrible, they're just awful 😉

 

My knowledge about the Aeolians is out of date, so I'd love to know what in the above is wrong.

Edited July 19 by Nevermet

[Nevermet]

Anyway, that also for me is how I think about the difference between "bad" henotheism and "Orthodox" Malkioni rune magic.  The more one focuses on the personas/personalities of who is venerated & worshipped rather than what they represent, the more one stumbles into a henotheism the Rokari would probably get angry about.  "Orthodox" Malkioni are interested in how to use the power of the air rune, but they're not interested in being or cosplaying Orlanth.  If a little happens along the way, well, that was inevitable to an extent, but its not the goal.

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Nevermet said:

to understand nature is to understand God and God’s will

Invisible God, invisible writing: you cannot read God’s will off of the universe — not empirically, not through some Cartesian project of radical doubt, not even if you had the blueprints …

2 hours ago, Nevermet said:

I’d love to know what in the above is wrong.

… but I don’t pretend that anything I say is what a reasonable person would conclude from reading canon — this is the place to be wrong; hopefully sometimes helpfully or amusingly wrong. (A girl can dream can’t she?) Probably, everything you say is correct.

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Nevermet said:

If a little [Orlanth cosplay] happens along the way, well, that was inevitable to an extent

See, now I am imagining one of the Malkioni coming home to find their partner in full woad, rubber corset, and leather whip drag crying “foul slime, curse of existence … lie and whimper before me” while straddling a broo furry (who turns out to be the neighbour they’d had their eye on).

[Nevermet]

21 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Invisible God, invisible writing: you cannot read God’s will off of the universe — not empirically, not through some Cartesian project of radical doubt, not even if you had the blueprints …

2 hours ago, Nevermet said:

Actually, I think a lot of Malkioni Blues would disagree with you and say we can understand the world, and by understanding the world, we gain an insight into the IG.  Maybe not the Irensavalists, as they have a demiurge.  And the Brithini IIRC don't actually believe in the IG.  But the Rokari I think would agree, as would several other Makan-informed iterations.

Of course, OOC, we can debate whether the Malkioni were "right" in this assessment, or if this is why most of the Middle Sea Empire is now underwater.  But at least IMG, there's still an Enlightenment rationality thread in the Malkioni, for good and for ill.

[Nevermet]

22 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

See, now I am imagining one of the Malkioni coming home to find their partner in full woad, rubber corset, and leather whip drag crying “foul slime, curse of existence … lie and whimper before me” while straddling a broo furry (who turns out to be the neighbour they’d had their eye on).

The Talar ordered us not to talk about that incident.

[mfbrandi]

30 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

The Talar ordered us not to talk about that incident.

The talar in the broo mask, you mean?

[Nevermet]

10 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

The talar in the broo mask, you mean?

No, his uncle.

But again: we're not talking about that.

[mfbrandi]

17 hours ago, Nevermet said:

an Enlightenment rationality thread in the Malkioni

Think of my idealised Malkioni as ultra-empiricists: they aim to understand the world, but they don’t expect to find the IG’s fingerprints on it, and they don’t expect to find God in it. Their god is properly transcendent — invisible, intangible, …, ineffable. And what we cannot speak about — well you know the rest.

Other Gloranthans see gods everywhere, so let us fill another niche in the religious ecology theme park of the lozenge. Boring if we play it so the polytheists have it right and everybody else is an idiot or a monster.

We can have the dwarfs as pantheists. We can have them both as “materialists” (where that allows energy, fields, and spacetime, as well as middle-sized dry goods).

But this is just a bit of fun. 😉

Edited July 20 by mfbrandi
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[JayLay]

Belintar the stranger is Malkion, hence his association with water.

[RicKaySi]

17 hours ago, Nevermet said:

they're not interested in being or cosplaying Orlanth.  If a little happens along the way, well, that was inevitable to an extent, but its not the goal.

I think having Sorcerers use a lot of paraphernalia that is recognizable or even sourced from theists as part of Sorcery could really challenge players to think about who "owns" an element. Theists teach that Orlanth owns the Air Rune, Zzabur holds that the supernatural aspect of elements is due to the degeneration of higher beings and the apotheosis of wizards. The Orlanthi know powerful wizards/Rune Lords becoming Orlanth is possible, remembered as good in the case of Harmast, bad in the case of Lokamayadon. Zzaburi record how the False God Revolt completely annihilated the "correct" way Malkioni opposition in old Umathela so they acknowledge the strength of embodying elements whilst denying the righteousness of it. To me it really looks like the (by now a bit cliche to invoke) parable of the blind men and the elephant. In Glorantha everyone could be describing parts of the truth but modesty, moralizing, and self-importance fudges the narrative.

13 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Other Gloranthans see gods everywhere, so let us fill another niche in the religious ecology theme park of the lozenge. Boring if we play it so the polytheists have it right and everybody else is an idiot or a monster.

Absolutely! And the questions asked by Gloranthans seem to go a lot deeper than: "gods (plural) exist, so monotheists, monists, atheists, naturalists, henotheists etc. are wrong.". I think a lot of non-theists in Glorantha question what a god even is, being powerful doesn't qualify a god by itself. I'm thinking of real world resistance to calling a Pharoah/Emperor a god (alive of posthumously) as a parallel - but in Glorantha the power being questioned is magical/elemental rather than political. There's probably a lot of further fragmentation. Zzabur's credentials getting questioned by other Malkioni, as well as the existence of the Aeolian Henotheists and the Atheists of God Forgot as pretty good proofs that Sorcery schools aren't in alignment about how/why the world was made. I don't think the theists would be in alignment either - I imagine theists disagree over who's a god or "just" a powerful spirit/demon all the time. 

19 minutes ago, JayLay said:

Belintar the stranger is Malkion, hence his association with water.

I think you're onto something there, the Sorcerers in Kethaela/The Holy Country are supposed to have prophesized his coming. Would be interesting if despite his kingdom being destroyed a whole new religion mourning its loss and following its principles continued for thousands of years after. Although most Kethaelans, busy with the upcoming war against the Lunars and who remember the death of Belintar would probably think it's mad nostalgia - but give it time, who knows?

[RicKaySi]

On 7/8/2024 at 4:07 PM, scott-martin said:

Oh I don't know. The good parts keep coming up like your fantastic post because they haven't fully expressed themselves yet.

I know the conversation has moved on but I wanted to thank you @scott-martin, @Martin Dick, @Joerg, @jajagappa and @Nick Brooke for all your kind words (and incredibly helpful advice) on how to make the "Arachne Solara's Web was a Fishing Net" theory work, as well as your pointers on which Moorcock/Moorcockian stories inspired that comic - I will have to read them for inspiration!

[radmonger]

The key thing about Loskalm is that the Men of All break the caste restrictions put in place between worker, soldier, sorceror and ruler. This allow them to do what no Brithini ever could; magically craft unenchanted iron gear that is highly effective in combat, resistant to hostile magic, and invulnerable to being dispelled.

The form such sorcerously created wargear takes is variable, but one common pattern is high Gothic steel plate armour. Such armour is personally created by the Men of All themselves, starting by alchemically  refining the iron via a dangerous process of Otherside questing.

For ten years I have been polishing this sword;
Its frosty edge has never been put to the test.
Now I am holding it and showing it to you:
Is there anyone suffering from injustice?

 

As a result, Loskalmi society has none of the material infrastructure and widespread knowledge otherwise required to produce equivalent gear. It's still recognizably a bronze age society. It's just one that has heavy cavalry wearing steel plate.

 

[mfbrandi]

10 hours ago, radmonger said:

[T]o do what no Brithini ever could: magically craft … high Gothic steel plate armour.

And yet if we take our lead from the poem, there are runic possibilities in another kind of armour:

• The current theory is that this type of armour is made from a multitude of small pieces of iron or steel shaped like the Chinese character for the word “mountain” (山).
  — Tang Mountain Pattern Armour

Orlanth would appreciate — and Greg may have meant — the link between mountains and mastery. For Humakt, there is truth.

[mfbrandi]

Is the knight errant of the Genertelan West more panther-headed Lin Chong or Mostali-adjacent Tony Stark?

[Joerg]

15 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Is the knight errant of the Genertelan West more panther-headed Lin Chong or Mostali-adjacent Tony Stark?

There is a Mostali-adjacent Tony Stark in Glorantha, but he is not from Loskalm: The Tournament King of Kustria is wearing a full iron suit of Mostali making. He (and his wife, the queen of Galin) grace the cover of Martin Helsdon's Men of the West, executed by Mark Smylie.

[mfbrandi]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Tournament King of Kustria is wearing a full iron suit of Mostali making.

But a Tony Stark must make his own armour (see radmonger’s post).

Me? I was rooting for Lin Chong, but don’t tell anyone. 😉

[mfbrandi]

50 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Zzaburi avoid armor as a hindrance to their magical activities.

Caste = class = character class.

The “mediæval West” is so bafflingly rule-bound and inflexible — seemingly to the point of unworkability — because it is a negative commentary on D & D.

See also The Smoking Ruins. Too on-the-nose or merely prophetic? 😉

[Ali the Helering]

24 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Me? I was rooting for Lin Chong, but don’t tell anyone. 😉

Ahhh, yes, but Hu San-Niang  has the HeroQuest power of Disembowel With Two Swords While They Are Distracted By Cuteness

[mfbrandi]

50 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Hu San-Niang … Disembowel With Two Swords While They Are Distracted By Cuteness

Miriam Margolyes, again?

[mfbrandi]

  Spun off from the DX thread because I get funny looks even here.

4 hours ago, John Biles said:

[O]nly suffering will shock you out of your complacency and slavery to the material world. 
And if you die, you will have more chances in the next life, anyway …
Buddha would definitely find this a terrible methodology.

• I have been doing better.
  But somehow the things drift back again:
  the stubborn beast-flesh grows day by day back again.
  But I mean to do better things still.
  I mean to conquer that.
  — Herbert George Wells, Doctor Moreau Explains

[radmonger]

The potato shops of Glamour are a tolerated form of dissent, places of speculative philosophical discussion where the wealthy and the fashionable mingle.

It is said that they once sold 'potato tea', a dark brown sweet drink only made at ruinous expense by dangerous magical process bordering on heroquesting. However, since the recent crackdowns, every time the lunar authorities raid, they find nothing but Hazia cakes and gin.

A popular thesis propounded by potato-shop radicals is that the existence of slavery in the modern Lunar Empire is a long term plot to undermine the Yelmic nobility. Currently the cult of Yelmic rulers is irreplaceable, as the Lordril peasantry would accept no other ruler as legitimate. And without the peasantry, the cities cannot be fed. According to one such radical, when the Cycle revolves, the inner circle of active Lunar Demigods will organise a successful slave uprising against the current mask of the Red Emperor and his Yelmic allies. 

Come the Revolution, everyone will eat potato cake.