Tell me about the Veldang and the quest for the Red Sword of Tolat

[Joerg]

Avalor left Teshnos in 950 ST as a well-established (greatest) king of God Learner Teshnos. Sigur became king in 980.

Assuming that Avalor was around 30 - 40 years old when he left Teshnos, he would have been 60 - 70 years old at the overthrow of the Adalla dynasty of Fronelan God Learners, with at least 20 years of presence in the land.

Avlor is called a foreigner. Now foreigners taking the crown of a Malkioni land have something of a tradition (like e.g. Gerlant).

Avalor had presumably recovered his (presumably exotic) wife when he settled the sword in Spada.

 

Would Sigur be Avalor? IMG probably not.

[dumuzid]

22 hours ago, Joerg said:

Avalor left Teshnos in 950 ST as a well-established (greatest) king of God Learner Teshnos. Sigur became king in 980.

Assuming that Avalor was around 30 - 40 years old when he left Teshnos, he would have been 60 - 70 years old at the overthrow of the Adalla dynasty of Fronelan God Learners, with at least 20 years of presence in the land.

This is true, Avalor would be a pretty senior man by the time the revolt in Fronela concludes if he lived a conventional lifespan, and we assume Avalor and Avlor are the same person.  I don't think that in itself is disqualifying, given the powers Avalor would've been exposed to and connected with as the greatest God Learner king of Teshnos.  I would not be surprised if some magical influence or another kept Avalor mentally and physically hale beyond the normal human span. 

There's also the chance that Avalor and Avlor are two different people.  There's thirty years between Avalor's abdication and Avlor's arrival in Fronela, time enough for Avalor to father and even raise a child, die, and that child to come of age and carry the sword to Fronela.  I would love further textual sources, because none of this cloud of ambiguity is helped by the simple fact that

22 hours ago, Joerg said:

Avalor had presumably recovered his (presumably exotic) wife when he settled the sword in Spada.

we don't actually know what became of Avalor's wife.  The guide says Avalor leaves Teshnos in 950, and no one from there ever learned what became of him.  Selenteen of Alampish went as far as the Zola Fel in search of him, but made no further progress; and by then the trail was over 200 years cold.  There's no evidence in the guide of what happened to the bearer of the Red Sword between Avalor's departure and Avlor's appearance in Fronela, no later than 980.

With the available evidence there's intriguing hints, and plenty enough for a GM to fabricate their own answer, but not enough for a fixed conclusion from the text alone.  Which is fine, there's enough threads here to spin the story out of in a few different directions.  I'm mostly just curious to see if any official writing has expanded this element of the late Second Age further.

[Joerg]

17 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

This is true, Avalor would be a pretty senior man by the time the revolt in Fronela concludes if he lived a conventional lifespan, and we assume Avalor and Avlor are the same person.  I don't think that in itself is disqualifying, given the powers Avalor would've been exposed to and connected with as the greatest God Learner king of Teshnos.  I would not be surprised if some magical influence or another kept Avalor mentally and physically hale beyond the normal human span. 

Yes, if you look at Aragorn, and the Fellowship of the Ring, then the youngest member would have been Boromir son of Denethor, Meriadoc Brandywine, or Peregrin Took, with Aragorn and Gimli somewhat tied for the third oldest after Gandalf and Legolas. (Makes me wonder why RPGs assume that you start playing at age 15 or so..)

Halwal, the Merlin/Gandalf figure in the liberation of Fronela and Ralios, gets his first mention as rival of Argalis in the commentaries on the reign of Triosos or Trosos, who reigned from 870 to 887. The author might refer to the current year of 908 for this rivalry, though.

Argalis disappeared during the reign of Hekaos, 946-958, after seventy years of service as High Sorcerer.

 

2 hours ago, dumuzid said:

There's also the chance that Avalor and Avlor are two different people.  There's thirty years between Avalor's abdication and Avlor's arrival in Fronela, time enough for Avalor to father and even raise a child, die, and that child to come of age and carry the sword to Fronela. 

There apparently is an Avalor's Saga in Greg's western cycle, but other than the title I haven't seen anything from it. If it is part of the foundations of Glorantha series that was sold in extremely limited numbers as fund raisers, Avalor would be found in the Book of Heroes in that 14 booklet series, I suppose.

I don't see Av(a)lor playing as decisive a role in the Fronelan rebellion as Halwal, Tyrensaval or Sigur.

 

2 hours ago, dumuzid said:

I would love further textual sources, because none of this cloud of ambiguity is helped by the simple fact that

On 7/28/2021 at 9:53 PM, Joerg said:

Avalor had presumably recovered his (presumably exotic) wife when he settled the sword in Spada.

we don't actually know what became of Avalor's wife.

Correct, we don't, but if she was a Melibite native priestess (dancer?), with ties to the Blue Moon, then an abduction to Croesium for interrogation or experimental worship would make sense.

 

17 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

The guide says Avalor leaves Teshnos in 950, and no one from there ever learned what became of him.  Selenteen of Alampish went as far as the Zola Fel in search of him, but made no further progress; and by then the trail was over 200 years cold.  There's no evidence in the guide of what happened to the bearer of the Red Sword between Avalor's departure and Avlor's appearance in Fronela, no later than 980.

The Red Sword in question is one of the better secondary incarnations of the Real Thing, but heroquesting may imbue another incarnation with sufficient identification to fulfill prophecies.

 

17 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

With the available evidence there's intriguing hints, and plenty enough for a GM to fabricate their own answer, but not enough for a fixed conclusion from the text alone.  Which is fine, there's enough threads here to spin the story out of in a few different directions.  I'm mostly just curious to see if any official writing has expanded this element of the late Second Age further.

King Sigur is mentioned for these events in Middle Sea Empire p.28.

 

There are some clues in Middle Sea Empire p.26. Already in 946 "bishops" of Loskalm curse Emperor Celakos, causing his death. (Or possibly his own "bishops".)

At least three years after the death of Celakos, after the disappearance of Argalis, Halwal is denied the post of High Sorcerer and departs from Seshnela.

Halwal and the Makanists are blamed for the disappearance of Argalis, who was a leading Malkioneranist. Yomili also was a representative of the Makanists. It isn't quite clear whether Yomili ascended to the post of High Sorcerer upon the disappearance of Argalis, or whether a Malkioneranist sorcerer was chosen over Halwal. Yomili may have had older, more Hrestolist leanings than Halwal, although Halwal's alliance with the Irensavalists and the Arkati point to a strong Hrestolist leaning on the part of Halwal, too, though perhaps less of the Seshnegi orthodoxy.

 

I wondered whether the cenobitic order of wizards transplanted by Jonat could have been the one advised by Halwal, but Middle Sea Empire speaks of a knightly order - in updated Western terminology that means men-of-all rather than zzaburi wizards.

 

According to Middle Sea Empire, the God Learner Collective was formed in 845, just 25 years before Argalis became High Sorcerer of the Middle Sea Empire. Both Halwal and Argalis may have witnessed the rise of the Malkioneranist movement early in their careers, Argalis from the inside, Halwal from the outside.

 

[Akhôrahil]

45 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Yes, if you look at Aragorn, and the Fellowship of the Ring, then the youngest member would have been Boromir son of Denethor, Meriadoc Brandywine, or Peregrin Took, with Aragorn and Gimli somewhat tied for the third oldest after Gandalf and Legolas. 

Pippin is the youngest at 28, which makes him not yet a full adult (age for that is famously 33), maybe corresponding to 18-19 in human years. Gimli is significantly older than Aragorn.

[dumuzid]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

There apparently is an Avalor's Saga in Greg's western cycle, but other than the title I haven't seen anything from it. If it is part of the foundations of Glorantha series that was sold in extremely limited numbers as fund raisers, Avalor would be found in the Book of Heroes in that 14 booklet series, I suppose.

Well there we go, that would be the decisive evidence.

I don't suppose anyone on this board has access to Avalor's Saga and would be willing to disclose any further details of the story?  This 'Foundations of Glorantha' series doesn't sound like something I'm likely to get my eyes on anytime soon.

[dumuzid]

In the time since I last updated this thread there's been some changes in the player cast and a pretty significant stretch of ground is covered.  The adventure has traveled west to Seshnela, found the second piece of Artmal (the hips), and the group sails into Fronela next week.  I have some ideas to work out here, but for now I just want to share one of my favorite products of the game:

This was made by the player of Arana Twice-Born, pixel art of all the player characters and several of the important NPCs.  From left to right the groups are: former player characters; current player characters; important NPCs.  I've mentioned in other threads that my adventurer group is extremely heterogenous, and I hope this gets the point across.

The former player characters were: Philomena, an SIZ 3 Ernalda-worshiping assistant shaman duck; Talak Surfaceseeker, a Pavis Rock Caste clay mostali; and Sirma Rocksworn, a Yelmalio-worshiping Sable Rider.  Talak and Sirma got married under the rites whereby Flintnail married a Daughter of Pavis towards the end of 1626, hence the unconventional deed names.

The current player characters are: Zakrag Spinebiter, an Esrolian Dark Troll Gorakiki shaman whose fetch is growing into a swarm of intertwined insect spirits; Arana Twice-born of House Delaeos, Helering dancer and cousin to Queen Samastina, easily the most high-born of the player characters; Kakti Queenshield, who worships Yelmalio and Aldrya and is the custodian of one of the group's greatest treasures, a living blue moonflower bush; and Potov Kannason, a Lunar Tarshite philosopher who could've been a prodigy at the palace school turned against the empire after his father was sacrificed to the Crimson Bat.  All but Zakrag spent 1626 serving Argrath Whitebull in the Eaglebrown Warlocks; Zakrag came to the quest for Artmal and the Red Sword from Queen Samastina's court.

The selected non-player characters are: Sir Ogelwo, a Pithdaran man-of-all who was attached to their mission in Seshnela by Count Jahiz of Oradaros as a sort of cultural attache, to help keep them from making more trouble than intended on their trip up the Tanier River; Ulanor of House Delaeos, Arana's brother and bodyguard, worshiper of Orlanth Thunderous; Tara Bree, former Imperial Blue Moon Assassin and White Moon convert, Potov's childhood friend, from the excellent Jonstown adventure Blue Moon, White Moon (@John Wick); Gebel of Teshnos, captain of the group's Haragalan tallship, the Starfarer (that's Pujaleg tattooing covering his body); and finally Gabaryanga, the Veldang slave revolt leader, who has now taken the quest to restore Artmal further than any other Veldang since the Dawn.

Next session the Starfarer sets sail from Rhis on the Castle Coast towards Southpoint, Loskalm.  They have a message to deliver to Gaiseron, from the Talar of Arolanit: "the Nameless Man is abroad, the Staff of Arinsor is in mortal hands, and the Wolf's snout turns towards Sog's Gate.  It is time for the Weapons of Talor to reunite."  I'm sure it means only good things for their continuing journey, towards the Blue Moon Plateau...

[Ladygolem]

That is some seriously cool art. What a great cast! Sounds like an amazing campaign. Please keep us updated!

[dumuzid]

For the last few days I've been working out some definite answers to the big unanswered questions and ambiguities of Fronela, as pertains to the Red Sword quest.  Many thanks to the various members of the tribe here who've indulged my questions about these dusty corners of Glorantha, without whom I would've had a much harder time working out this synthesis.  The following constitutes a Major Secret of the region in the Glorantha of my campaign:

Varganthar the Unconquerable, the Blue Knight, and Talor the Laughing Warrior 

Varganthar was the leader of a Zaranistangi warband that journeyed northwest from Melib in the First Age to investigate what became of the God Time colony founded by Piku, the father of the Third Eye Blue people.  They found its ruins in Tastolar and the scattered Third Eye Blue and their Mostali renegade comrades living as mendicant smiths among the Eleven Beasts Alliance of the 400s ST.  The Eleven Beasts were much humbled by then, defeated by the Second Council in 300, further weakened by the Brithini enslaving the gods of the Tawari people in the Bull Gate of Valsburg.  Varganthar learned of the joint campaigns of Akem and Nida to destroy the Third Eye Blue and the dissident Mostali who took refuge with them; of the wars that pushed Malkioni civilization down the Janube river and the Ozur coasts; of hsunchen clans stripped of their spirits and reduced to slavery as ‘dronar’ beneath the Brithini.  In honor of the refuge the Eleven Beasts gave his Third Eye Blue kin after the destruction of their homeland, Varganthar and his Zaranistangi swore alliance with the hsunchen against Akem and Nida.  His followers raised the Blue Palace over the great fragment of the Blue Moon at Croesium as a southern locus for the long war to come.

For a time Varganthar indeed seemed unconquerable.  His Zaranistangi could appear wherever they cared to at will, coordinating the Eleven Beasts as never before and striking without warning at what the enemy considered secure targets.  The Akemite settlements along the Janube were razed, their captured herds and hsunchen slaves freed.  The hsunchen shamans named their Zaranistangi allies and their loper steeds the Twelfth Beast, sent by Hykim and Mikyh as the liberators of Frona’s children.

The tide turned again with the advent of Talor the Laughing Warrior, who rallied the Malkioni to throw back the Eleven Beasts at the Siege of Valsburg, ensuring the continued imprisonment of the Tawari gods within the Bull Gate.  As the struggle entered a new, desperate phase for the Fronelan Hykimi, more and more of the hsunchen looked from Varganthar to the Dorastan mystic Arinsor and his missionary Riddlers from the Empire of Light for the power to fight on.  With the aid of great and terrible sacrifices Arinsor raised the Gate of Banir at what is now Timms; from there and Dilis Swamp emerged broos, scorpion men and far fouler things to harry the Akemites and their dwarf allies.  Varganthar and Talor opposed each other in three battles; Talor slew him at last in the third, but was in turn laid low by the sorcery of Arinsor.

When Harmast Barefoot undertook his Second Lightbringers Quest to bring the New Light of Talor reborn into the world, he served as the psychopomp that guided Talor’s shade to reconcile with Varganthar’s in Hell.  When Harmast and Talor emerged from the Underworld at Hrelar Amali they bore the three Weapons of Talor, gifts from the gods of death and vengeance to bring a just end to the torments of Fronela: the Reckoner Cross, the Gorgon Smile, and the Howl Sting, which Talor distributed among his closest companions.  

In Talor’s absence the victorious Akemites had turned to brutal, uncompromising suppression of the defeated Fronelan hsunchen, while Arinsor abandoned the field to join the defense of Dorastor itself against the troll hosts of Arkat and Ezkankekko.  Talor honored his accord with Varganthar by bringing the persecutions to an end, establishing recognized borders between the settled lands and the hsunchen nomads that even Nida respected, and endured until the Jrusteli Empire overthrew the first Kingdom of Loskalm.  He and the Weapon-bearers hunted down the last of Arinsor’s monsters and set a watchful guard of warriors and spirits about the still-open Gate of Banir.  

With the Fronelan front of the Gbaji Wars concluded, Talor and Harmast led a coalition of the Fronelan peoples south to Dorastor for the final battles.  In that apocalyptic struggle Talor slew Arinsor and seized his Staff of Bone, with which he and Harmast were able to seal the Gate of Banir at last.  The pact between Talor and Varganthar in Hell grew into the founding magic of the new Kingdom of Loskalm, but the diligent work of the God Learners of later Frontem obliterated full knowledge of the deed outside of hsunchen oral history and the Talor apocrypha gathered by King Siglat much, much later.  In modern Loskalm only High Watcher Gaiseron, Meriatan, and King Gundreken know the whole story; among Fronela’s hsunchen peoples, learning these secrets is an important element of the initiation trials into full shamanhood.  The Elf King of Courtwood, the Brithini of Sog City, and most of the current ruling council of Nida all experienced these events personally, and their recollections vary according to their biases.

[dumuzid]

Here's a little yuletime gift of homemade Gloranthan synthesis, another major secret from my version of Fronela:

The Nature of the Kingdom of War 

The arrival of the Kingdom is the unintended result of three overlapping magical projects during the Syndics’ Ban: the Loskalmi effort to transform their land into the Kingdom of Logic by (among other methods) siphoning and expelling unwelcome spiritual influence; the joint project of the Arrolian Properties to free themselves from the Ban through the Lunar Way; and  the effort of the Black Forest trolls to escape the Ban by traveling alive to the Underworld.  All three succeeded.

The interaction of these three great magical workings created a void at the heart of the Ban, a vacuum where the Black Forest Trolls’ stronghold once lay.  Everything the Loskalmi separated themselves from rushed to fill the void, and those energies flowed up to the Red Moon and down to the Underworld through channels created by the labors of the other two parties.  This combination of powers filtered into the Lunar Hells, where it opened a tiny crack in the realm of torment containing Sheng Seleris and his greatest followers.  Though Sheng himself was far too vast and well-guarded a presence to slip free through that opening, it was enough to permit a few escapees: notably Lord Death On A Horse, a great chief of the Pentan Storm-worshipers, and his first wife Ezdene, arch priestess of the Seleran Empire’s war gods and daughter of Sheng Seleris.  As the pair climbed the layers of hell, following thickening threads of mingled power, they liberated other similarly damned, cruel souls from their torments, and it was this rush of half-demons that first emerged upon an open, grassy plain in what was once the heart of the Black Forest.

Lord Death, originally KorgaTuShen, was one of the first converts to the new doctrine brought among the Pentan tribes by Sheng Seleris: the great secret, “All Life is Slavery.”  In seeking to reconcile this secret with the teachings of the Storm gods, Lord Death quested to the outer edges of existence and witnessed many of the same truths that exalted and tormented his master.  In this fashion he gained direct experience of the Old East Wind of the Pentans, called Vadrus among Theyalans, and learned that the god he sought was not truly dead.

According to the Revelation of KorgaTuShen, when the Old East Wind sought to gain mastery over Chaos he was not destroyed but brought into communion with the Supreme God, Jolaty, the personal god of Sheng Seleris.  The East Wind made reverence and submission to Jolaty, and forfeited his ancient bellow to become the Silent Wind, the Overlord Wind that bows the minds of men and brings gods and nations low in suppliance.  Armed with this revelation, Lord Death overmastered the chief priests of each of the Four Winds, gaining command of all their powers beneath the banner of the Silent Wind.  His greatest deed in the journey out of Hell was a raid on the Pastures of Bijiif, during which he used Jolaty’s magic to enslave a small herd of the mythical Black Horses as mounts for his elite followers.

Ezdene is a High Priestess of Jolaty, and her interactions with other cults are structured through Jolaty Understanding.  She knows all gods to be the slaves of Jolaty, and she worships them through the glory of their submission to Him.  Within the Kingdom of War the Jolaty cult is the ruling faith, administered by Ezdene and her disciples; Jolaty’s Secret is the guiding principle of the Kingdom, as it was of Sheng’s Empire.  She believes their ultimate victory will come when even the Loskalmi have no choice but to admit that their Invisible God is Jolaty and they are His slaves.  Ezdene was able to call up the Staff of Arinsor through the blood sacrifice of most of the captives taken in the burning of Finho, and now wields that artifact in her husband’s and Jolaty’s service.

[dumuzid]

And here's an update to the illustrated cast roster, courtesy of the player of Arana Twice-Born:

Notable additions to the player characters: 

1) The fancy hat Potov picked up to pass himself off as a 'sort of' zzaburi before the group entered western Genertela

2) Kakti's elf bow, which has not yet gained a CHA of its own but it's on its way

3) The gauzy shawl Arana obtained through portraying Helera in a Gods World heroquest: she brought back some of the cloud-clothing Helera wore

4) The visually clashing but, to uz sensibilities, immaculately stylish clothing Zakrag obtained as a gift from the baroness of Fralos

Notable additions to the NPCs:

1) The first mate of the Starfarer, Sephara, a Marazi amazon who has borne three children to her divine husband: two daughters growing up on Trowjang with her extended family, and a demon who dwells in his father's house.  Her teeth are capped or replaced by golden fangs made from melted-down Teshnan baubles and enchanted to have the bite of bronze.

2) Jun To, a true rarity: a human rune priest of Magasta, an ascetic from the East Isles who serves as the primary expert on all things oceanic for the Starfarer crew.  He was treated with great respect by the triolini taking tolls on the way into  the Choralinthor, and despite his strong Death rune is the only character on the roster so far who never carries a weapon.

Edited January 4, 2022 by dumuzid