Shrinkwrapping!

[Nightshade]

Again, I'll mention blind buying. Back in the old days, I used to be able to flip though books and see what I was buying (or at least read the back of the box). OGL makes that impossible. Only a handful of the

Blind buying is the routine with modern games anyway, as most are shrink-wrapped; if all you want is the back cover blurb, you can typically get the equivelent off the website of anyone producing a product. So I think you're projecting problems on OGL that predate them and exist entirely outside the OGL.

[Atgxtg]

Blind buying is the routine with modern games anyway, as most are shrink-wrapped; if all you want is the back cover blurb, you can typically get the equivelent off the website of anyone producing a product. So I think you're projecting problems on OGL that predate them and exist entirely outside the OGL.

Most supplments I see are unwrapped. Most hardcover and softcover books are easily flipped through at my local gaming stores. Buying blind is more due to net sales than OGL persey, but OGL floods the market, making it harder to find the good stuff.

[Nightshade]

Most supplments I see are unwrapped. Most hardcover and softcover books are easily flipped through at my local gaming stores. Buying blind is more due to net sales than OGL persey, but OGL floods the market, making it harder to find the good stuff.

I haven't seen a non-shrink-wrapped game (other than hardcovers, and even those are inconsistent) at a gaming store in the greater Los Angeles area of a book of current vintage in nearly a decade now. If you're finding them in your area, far as I can tell you're lucky.

[Atgxtg]

I haven't seen a non-shrink-wrapped game (other than hardcovers, and even those are inconsistent) at a gaming store in the greater Los Angeles area of a book of current vintage in nearly a decade now. If you're finding them in your area, far as I can tell you're lucky.

Most of the stuff at my local stores is not shrinkwrapped. Usually boxed sets are, modules and other things will pull out maps, compnents are, but most hard and perfectbound softcover RPG books (GURPS, HERO, L5R, Pendragon, Wold of Darkness) all are unwrapped.

Maybe the stores in LA shrinkwrap stuff? Do they put security tags on the RPG stuff the way most stores do with CDs and DVDs?

[Nightshade]

Most of the stuff at my local stores is not shrinkwrapped. Usually boxed sets are, modules and other things will pull out maps, compnents are, but most hard and perfectbound softcover RPG books (GURPS, HERO, L5R, Pendragon, Wold of Darkness) all are unwrapped.

Maybe the stores in LA shrinkwrap stuff? Do they put security tags on the RPG stuff the way most stores do with CDs and DVDs?

I don't think so, though its possible; but if so, its extremely common, as I've heard similar complaints from people in other areas. I suspect the majority of its coming from the distributor that way.

[Atgxtg]

I don't think so, though its possible; but if so, its extremely common, as I've heard similar complaints from people in other areas. I suspect the majority of its coming from the distributor that way.

That's probably it. Since I'm on the East Coast and you are on the West Coast, our stores might be buying from different distrubtors. You's shirnkwrap, mine don't.

[Jason D]

I haven't seen a non-shrink-wrapped game (other than hardcovers, and even those are inconsistent) at a gaming store in the greater Los Angeles area of a book of current vintage in nearly a decade now. If you're finding them in your area, far as I can tell you're lucky.

I'm in central Texas, lived in the Pacific Northwest five years prior, and just got back from a year in the Bay Area, and I've rarely seen shrinkwrapped games in any of those locales. I've also spent a couple of weeks in Boston and Seattle recently, and again, plastic is in the minority.

Usually, only GM Screens or boxed sets are in plastic - most of the time, individual games aren't shrinkwrapped, and I've seen the distributorship for most of Texas and the books aren't in plastic on the shelves there, either. I'm more likely to see plastic wrap on used games in some stores than on new stock.

I suspect it's a regional thing, maybe?

[Nightshade]

I'm in central Texas, lived in the Pacific Northwest five years prior, and just got back from a year in the Bay Area, and I've rarely seen shrinkwrapped games in any of those locales. I've also spent a couple of weeks in Boston and Seattle recently, and again, plastic is in the minority.

Usually, only GM Screens or boxed sets are in plastic - most of the time, individual games aren't shrinkwrapped, and I've seen the distributorship for most of Texas and the books aren't in plastic on the shelves there, either. I'm more likely to see plastic wrap on used games in some stores than on new stock.

I suspect it's a regional thing, maybe?

Certainly possible, though I've heard the same complaint from non-locals.

[SDLeary]

I haven't seen a non-shrink-wrapped game (other than hardcovers, and even those are inconsistent) at a gaming store in the greater Los Angeles area of a book of current vintage in nearly a decade now. If you're finding them in your area, far as I can tell you're lucky.

Up here in the SF area, most stuff isn't shrunk. IN fact, my current fav FLGS HATES books shrunk. Makes it hard for them to learn about the product too.

SDLeary

[drohem]

I grew up in LA area, and found that in the 90's a lot of places started shrink-wrapping their materials.

[GreatBear]

Boxes and modules with loose components get shrinkwrapped. Game hobby books are not usually shrinkwrapped by the printer/publisher. If you see a book in shrinkwrap it was done by the store to protect it from shop wear. Or because they are anal comic collector types.

[Nightshade]

I grew up in LA area, and found that in the 90's a lot of places started shrink-wrapping their materials.

Well, as I said, it could be just stores, but its odd that all the ones I saw did it, and that I've heard of it from elsewhere. Perhaps its a spreading meme.

[Atgxtg]

It is being to look like a LA area thing.

[Nightshade]

Boxes and modules with loose components get shrinkwrapped. Game hobby books are not usually shrinkwrapped by the printer/publisher. If you see a book in shrinkwrap it was done by the store to protect it from shop wear. Or because they are anal comic collector types.

As I said, I didn't see it all that much with hardcovers, but with softcovers it seemed almost universal.

[Nightshade]

It is being to look like a LA area thing.

Except I've heard the same complaints from people elsewhere, including some from the Texas area. It does sound like its not as universal as I'd gotten the impression, though. Where are you located?

[Atgxtg]

Massachusetts.

It could be due to distributors and you suggested. Probably different regions of the country have different distributors, some might shrink wrap, some might not.

As far as I concerned, if they started to shrink wrap everything around here, I'd probably stop buying new RPGs at the stores. The ability to look over a product is one of the advantages that local stores have over the net. That, instant gratification (no waiting time) and input from other gamers at the store. I hate getting stuck with a real stinker, and if I was forced to buy blind, I'd buy a PDF online and save $$.

ONe nice thing about Spririt of the Century is that you can buy a PDF/hardcopy package. You get to DL the PDF (instant gratification!) and then the rulebook arrives in the mail. Best of both worlds. I'd love to see Chasoium do some sort of print copy/PDF package deal.

[Nightshade]

Massachusetts.

It could be due to distributors and you suggested. Probably different regions of the country have different distributors, some might shrink wrap, some might not.

Though I was under the impression a lot of consolidation of distributors happened a few years back.

As far as I concerned, if they started to shrink wrap everything around here, I'd probably stop buying new RPGs at the stores. The ability to look over a product is one of the advantages that local stores have over the net. That, instant gratification (no waiting time) and input from other gamers at the store. I hate getting stuck with a real stinker, and if I was forced to buy blind, I'd buy a PDF online and save $$.

Other than the fact I don't entirely like .pdfs (they're okay for occasional reference, but I don't find them particularly easy to read on-screen), that's essentially what I did; I haven't bought a game at a brick and mortar store for years. And my budget is such that most RPGs are past my impulse buy anymore anyway, so the instant gratification issue is out the window.

ONe nice thing about Spririt of the Century is that you can buy a PDF/hardcopy package. You get to DL the PDF (instant gratification!) and then the rulebook arrives in the mail. Best of both worlds. I'd love to see Chasoium do some sort of print copy/PDF package deal.

Some other companies are starting this approach, but too many of them are still leery of .pdf sales in general to go there yet, I think.

[drohem]

Other than the fact I don't entirely like .pdfs (they're okay for occasional reference, but I don't find them particularly easy to read on-screen), that's essentially what I did; I haven't bought a game at a brick and mortar store for years. And my budget is such that most RPGs are past my impulse buy anymore anyway, so the instant gratification issue is out the window.

We're on the same page here

I know that if I were running a game store, I would shrink-wrap all copies but one as a preview/shelf copy.

I hate spending an insane amount of money on a book only to find a page or more torn, tweaked, smudged, etc.

I think it might have something to do with the volume of traffic that a gaming store sees. For a small ma-and-pa store, the volume is low enough that their product is not damaged/compromised by shopper traffic. However, in the large population centers, and few gaming stores, the volume of traffic is such that shelfware becomes an issue.

[Trifletraxor]

A new thread is in order I think.

Shrinkwrap away!

SGL.

[Atgxtg]

A new thread is in order I think.

Shrinkwrap away!

SGL.

Ironically, this is sort of a side thread of a side thread. The idea being that one of the advantages of closed systems is that you can see what you are buying before you buy, where as with PDFs and many third party products, you are forced to buy blind.

I wonder what other regional differences might exist in RPGing?

[Nightshade]

We're on the same page here

I know that if I were running a game store, I would shrink-wrap all copies but one as a preview/shelf copy.

The problem with this is it isn't uncommon for stores to get only one copy of all but the most popular products these days. That wasn't that uncommon even with more obscure products years ago; the place I bought my copies of most BTRC rules only had one copy of each of them for example.

[Nightshade]

Ironically, this is sort of a side thread of a side thread. The idea being that one of the advantages of closed systems is that you can see what you are buying before you buy, where as with PDFs and many third party products, you are forced to buy blind.

I wonder what other regional differences might exist in RPGing?

I'm not sure what your rationale really was for claiming this in the first place though; how is an OGL style product any worse than any new system in knowing what you're getting? Honestly, unless the licensor doesn't permit any alteration of rules at all, how's it even any better with just licensed games?

I'm just not quite understanding this. If your premise is that a lot of D20 OGL products are junk, that's true, but a lot of games in general are junk; I can't say I've found OGL based material any worse than the run of the mill here. Certainly Mutants and Masterminds is a better game than many entirely new ones, and I certainly knew more about it than I do with many of those before I bought it.

[Atgxtg]

I'm not sure what your rationale really was for claiming this in the first place though; how is an OGL style product any worse than any new system in knowing what you're getting? Honestly, unless the licensor doesn't permit any alteration of rules at all, how's it even any better with just licensed games?

I'm just not quite understanding this. If your premise is that a lot of D20 OGL products are junk, that's true, but a lot of games in general are junk; I can't say I've found OGL based material any worse than the run of the mill here. Certainly Mutants and Masterminds is a better game than many entirely new ones, and I certainly knew more about it than I do with many of those before I bought it.

Sure, my rational is as follows:

1) Big company products are more likely to show up on the shelves than third party products. Both because game stores are more likely to stock WotC, or Chasoium than Joe Smoe's games, and also because many third party companies don't produce hard copy.

So, barring shrinkwrap, consuers can flip through the products and filter out the good from the bad before buying.

2) New systems from old companies are usually a bit easier to guess about than new systems from new companies. For instance, we can guess what a new Chasoium or WotC gaming book will be like. So if we have a preference, we can filter that way.

So if you like what a company has released in the past, you are more likely to like their new product. But if you haven't heard of the company before, you have nothing to go on.

3) Since established companies tend to be in this for the long haul, there is less chance of seeing them release an entirely useless piece of junk to make a fast buck. There's a lot of OGL stuff out there that just snags a quick profit for some fly-by-nighter.

I haven't seen many 3rd party products that match the quality of the official stuff. Most the OGL stuff I've seen has been crap. At best, feeding someone's desire to be a profession RPG writer, at worse a quick buck. Most is really fanzine quality stuff.

That also hurts RPGing, since now people are less likely to share their homegrown stuff, when they can sell it.

OGL did what is was supposed to do for WotC. It turned around the trend in RPGing and made D&D/D20 the predominant system again. Practically any company that is writing good D20 stuff was writing good or better non-D20 stuff before OGL.

OGL won't help BRP much, since the majority of RPGers don't give a squat about BRP anyway. And most D&Ders don't look at and buy non D20 products.

[Nightshade]

Sure, my rational is as follows:

1) Big company products are more likely to show up on the shelves than third party products. Both because game stores are more likely to stock WotC, or Chasoium than Joe Smoe's games, and also because many third party companies don't produce hard copy.

So, barring shrinkwrap, consuers can flip through the products and filter out the good from the bad before buying.

2) New systems from old companies are usually a bit easier to guess about than new systems from new companies. For instance, we can guess what a new Chasoium or WotC gaming book will be like. So if we have a preference, we can filter that way.

So if you like what a company has released in the past, you are more likely to like their new product. But if you haven't heard of the company before, you have nothing to go on.

3) Since established companies tend to be in this for the long haul, there is less chance of seeing them release an entirely useless piece of junk to make a fast buck. There's a lot of OGL stuff out there that just snags a quick profit for some fly-by-nighter.

But again, how is this any different than entirely new game systems from new companies? You don't know any of this, either. On the other hand, an established company that produces good material can just as easily focus on OGL (as Green Ronin did for much of its history).

That also hurts RPGing, since now people are less likely to share their homegrown stuff, when they can sell it.

I'm really unconvinced of this; the kind of people who do that now are for the most part not the kind that will take the time to try and market something, which even with OGL has a lot of time and overhead.

OGL won't help BRP much, since the majority of RPGers don't give a squat about BRP anyway. And most D&Ders don't look at and buy non D20 products.

But that's also why you won't see all that much done for it by fly-by-night artists; not enough people will buy it just because "BRP" is on the cover, and most that would be interested will keep their ear to the ground to hear if its any good.

[Atgxtg]

One big difference is that without OGL, we'd be more likely to see a game system carried in it's entirety by local stores. Allowing those of us living in the non-wrapped world to see what we are buying.

If we flip through it and don't buy it, then it doesn't sell. That will affect what my local shop does as far as restocking and future products. Likewise, it something flies off the shelf that company's stuff will be better stocked by the store.

For example, one of my local stores doesn';t carry Mongoose OGL prdocts. THe owner says they don't sell anymore. People used to buy them, trying to get some new power or something, only to find out that the rules in the product didn't work out right.

Sad shop owner also buys practically nothnig but D&D RPG stuff, since there is so much stuff that he can't keep up with D&D AND keep up wth the other RPGs anymore.

Net result. OGL turned his shop from a gaming store to a D&D store. That's bad for people who want to play games other than D&D.