Saints/Ascended Masters of the Malkioni Sects

[Darius West]

I am interested in where we currently sit in terms of all the various Ascended Masters of the Malkioni whom I will call saints because it is faster to type.  I am interested in doing something of a roll-call for the saints.  How many have been named and what is their area of specialty?  If you know the document and page they are in and on, including it would net you extra credit.

[Nick Brooke]

Sandy Petersen’s list of Saints is a nice place to start. 

[Nick Brooke]

Trotsky lists 15 Seshnelan saintly orders in his book about Seshnela, Kingdom of the Flamesword (list p.35, details on pages 36-42 for local and 142-153 for widespread saints), and lists 17 saintly orders found in Jonatela in Forged in Blood and Snow (list p.49, details for the seven local saints on pages 50-59). Those books are available from the Jonstown Compendium.

His older Book of Glorious Joy (describing Loskalm) is no longer available (previously published by D101 Games): it lists 27 Loskalmi saintly orders on page 84 (divided into Common Saints, Adept Saints and Widespread Saints, and omitting of course the False Saints followed by some benighted foreigners); they are then detailed on pages 85-104. You probably know the provenance of this stuff, but just in case: Loskalmi Canonicity.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Nick Brooke

[Nick Brooke]

I have non-canonical thoughts about Saint Mardron, who I used as the founder of the Holy Rokari Church, which have only made it into this squib (so far): The "Blasphemy of Leplain."

[metcalph]

Quote

Ascended Masters venerated by the Hrestoli include Hrestol, Tomaris, Gerlant, Arkat, Talor, Halwal, Tryensaval, Snodal, and Siglat.

Guide p51

Hrestol - the First Saint.  

Tomaris - A follower of Hrestol and one of the first Men-of-All.  Probably founded the cult in Fronela.

Gerlant - King of Seshnela and Man-of-All.  Known for fighting against Gbaji.  

Arkat - Great Hero and Traitor.

Talor - King of Loskalm and Man-of-All.  Known for fighting against Gbaji.

Halwal - God Learner wizard who taught their enemies in the Sorceror's War (MSE p24 and p28+)

Tryensaval - King of Loskalm and Man-of-All who expelled the God Learners.

Snodal - Hero who saved Loskalm in the Modern Age.

Siglat - Half-Altinae King of Loskalm who perfected Loskalm during the Ban.

Xemela - Mother of Hrestol and Healer.  Presumably a Goddess rather than an Ascended Master.  

The Rokari don't have saints although Rokar would qualify.  Around Seshnela there is

Yomili of Pithdaros who fought for the Kingdom in the Sorcerors War 

The Arkati worship Arkat and the Gods although Paslac the last Autarch is noted as being a Saint in Gods of Glorantha.

The Carmanians would have Carmanos and Alijiyah (Fortunate Succession p90)

The Middle Sea Empire also mentions:

Pascandal p35 - a basic martyr against the God Learners.  Personally I think his story makes more sense if he was a follower of Arkat the Loser/Savior.

Manodvar p35 who fought the Book Duel against Karsmandikor proving that the Abiding Book was corrupt (the text calls it the shielded abiding book but I think the distinction is spurious)

Castelain p37.  Personally I believe he's an Issarite Hero rather than an Ascended Master.    The philosophy of the cult of Ashara is rather tepid.

Banklou p39.  A founder of a monastic order of which a member was Giorgos, a critic of some God Learners movements.  The only other detail about him was that he was a strict Makanist.  

The God Learners involved in the Abiding Book project would qualify as Saints but their names are for the most part not known.

[scott-martin]

All these lists are great. Imagine a desperate but determined band of scholar-monks like the Bollandists called to scavenge the lozenge collecting the deeds and golden legend of all the littlest saints, Sri Bob of the Perfect Canape attested to by "an old woman of the village of Khent, which I am told is in Ralios, or was." Probably Castle Coast people. I don't really know where else this counterreformation impulse is currently in vogue. Either way, their work probably ends right about the same time as the world, whereby hangs some kind of allegory. 

The "core list" I've seen reproduced in places like Tales 13 seems to be an Autarchy construct but might actually persist into early 16th century Safelster: Arkat (Liberator), Gerlant (Flamesword), Hrestol, Paslac, Talor (Laughing Warrior), Valkaro and Xemela. Together they form a kind of extended holy family around Arkat as the literal sword come to fulfill the teaching of Hrestol the prophet and since there are seven they might have helped someone structure their Malkionite week. Valkaro Goes To The East and the line of Arkat is not favored in the Middle Sea Empire so those names would drop out early. Talor might persist. People seem to like Talor.

Mike Dawson argued (also in Tales 13) for Mabodinarne (Tolerant), Valsatar (Permissive) and Goriant (Involved) as three Arkat successor saints venerated in Dark Empire Ralios but this has probably vanished. Tales 13 also reflects a funny moment where Siglat (pbuh) is venerated but "for the father nothing" as Snodal is not. I always liked the nuance there.

Somebody would probably say the Mothers are venerated like saints ("inspirations") in the historical Arrolian zone but I suspect a lot of that vanished in the Ban. 

[Nick Brooke]

2 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Somebody would probably say the Mothers are venerated like saints ("inspirations") in the historical Arrolian zone but I suspect a lot of that vanished in the Ban. 

Team Arrolia Represent! We don't have fuddy-duddy old-fashioned "Saints" (how quaint!), we have modern up-to-date Inspirations: 

The most popular Inspirations are the Seven Mothers, who brought the Red Goddess into the world through a ritual. Their names are: Jakaleel, the Wise Woman; Teelo Norri, Ever-Virgin; Queen Deezola of the Lands; Yanafal Tarnils, the Knight of the Ram; Irrippi Ontor, the Wizard; Penitent Danfive Xaron, Redeemer of Sinners; and their mysterious servant, She Who Waits. We emulate and venerate them, and they grant us their blessings.

 

[Nick Brooke]

7 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Either way, their work probably ends right about the same time as the world, whereby hangs some kind of allegory. 

"The Nine Myriad Saints of Malkion"?

[scott-martin]

1 minute ago, Nick Brooke said:

"The Nine Myriad Saints of Malkion"?

They cross-indexed the list in progress with the Irrippi Ontor "regional homeland" population projections and determined that there were at least 4900 more names on the list than people who have statistically existed S.T. This created its share of obvious theological challenges (can a wholly fictional person Ascend? and is our math off somewhere?) but the monks kept working . . . this was about 20 years ago I guess? So far, so good.

Interestingly the overwhelming majority of the extra names rolled "other" for some reason.

[Nick Brooke]

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

They cross-indexed the list in progress with the Irrippi Ontor "regional homeland" population projections and determined that there were at least 4900 more names on the list than people who have statistically existed S.T. This created its share of obvious theological challenges (can a wholly fictional person Ascend? and is our math off somewhere?) but the monks kept working . . . this was about 20 years ago I guess? So far, so good.

Interestingly the overwhelming majority of the extra names rolled "other" for some reason.

I was thinking about this; for whatever reason, 90,000 seemed more plausibly achievable than nine billion. (Also, it's nice to get people to check what a myriad means)

Mind you, just now my brain skipped from myriad to myrmidon to timinits; if any of the Second Age sects that converted timinits to Malkionism still have devotees in those fabled hives where a whole generation lives for just one day, then my math is completely out.

[scott-martin]

Just now, Nick Brooke said:

Mind you, just now my brain skipped from myriad to myrmidon to timinits; if any of the Second Age sects that converted timinits to Malkionism still have devotees in those fabled hives where a whole generation lives for just one day, then my math is completely out.

The stars definitely start going out as long as the math is right. For all I know the nested exponential expression (7^7)^7 in the IO is really just 777 plus a lot of false positives. The problem is that a lot of the relic counts are off, with six collarbones over here and then nothing attested for the next several dozen pages.

There must be at least "one" (myriad) St Timinit in the system!!

[Nick Brooke]

I am reminded of the famous Welsh Bardic Triad about the Three Bodies of St Teilo; and the minor incidental detail that when the bones of St Chad were sent for carbon-dating by the Vatican, they discovered he had three legs. I am sure there is a perfectly reasonable explanation. And here is the skull of St Rokar when he was a young boy. 

[Darius West]

On 6/2/2021 at 5:05 PM, Nick Brooke said:

Sandy Petersen’s list of Saints is a nice place to start. 

This is a great resource that I wasn't aware even existed.  Thanks Nick!

[Darius West]

I notice something of a lack of masters one might associate with guilds and merchants.  Is anyone aware of any artisan saints or merchant saints?

[metcalph]

16 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I notice something of a lack of masters one might associate with guilds and merchants.  Is anyone aware of any artisan saints or merchant saints?

Because that's not what Saints and Masters are all about.  They become saints due to important philosophical discoveries, not petty mundane concerns.  Think the Theory of Gravity or the Discovery of Phosphorous.  People in charge of crafts and trade would be Heroes rather than Saints.

There is a obvious counterpoint that some people on the lists of Saints do not appear to qualify as Saints (i.e. Gerlant, Talor and Snodal).  That is because they don't.  They are important Heroes who have been worshipped as Saints for politcal purposes.  Fortunately the Rokari have put an end to such nonsense. 

[Nick Brooke]

16 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I notice something of a lack of masters one might associate with guilds and merchants.  Is anyone aware of any artisan saints or merchant saints?

St Mistandar the Fair (KotF p.39) covers mercantile matters in Seshnela, while in Fronela St Raigarn (BoGJ p.89f) is the patron saint of artisans and St Sestercian (BoGJ p.91) of merchants. In Jonatela, St Zmes (FBS p.57) is the patron saint of blacksmiths. Trotsky's West has a plethora of other patron saints covering professions such as servants, equerries, musicians, housewives and beggars, each with full-page HeroQuest-style writeups. If you are into this stuff, please do look it up. He worked on the Malkioni West for a decade or so, cross-checking what he was writing with Greg Stafford, and created a beautiful, detailed tapestry.

[Nick Brooke]

Adding: there's a short list of 13 more Loskalmi craft saints on p.90 of BoGJ. 

[Darius West]

Again, thanks a lot Nick.  Great info.

[Darius West]

45 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Because that's not what Saints and Masters are all about.  They become saints due to important philosophical discoveries, not petty mundane concerns.  Think the Theory of Gravity or the Discovery of Phosphorous.  People in charge of crafts and trade would be Heroes rather than Saints.

There is a obvious counterpoint that some people on the lists of Saints do not appear to qualify as Saints (i.e. Gerlant, Talor and Snodal).  That is because they don't.  They are important Heroes who have been worshipped as Saints for politcal purposes.  Fortunately the Rokari have put an end to such nonsense. 

While a reasonable assessment of the evidence, it appears this is just not the case.  The simple fact is that ordinary people in the West don't have access to sorcery, but they do need to be involved in the religion if the religion is to work, and that means hagiolatry, i.e. taking patrons.

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, Darius West said:

While a reasonable assessment of the evidence, it appears this is just not the case.  The simple fact is that ordinary people in the West don't have access to sorcery, but they do need to be involved in the religion if the religion is to work, and that means hagiolatry, i.e. taking patrons.

The ordinary people of the West do not believe in the Invisible God, who does nothing for them.

They believe in the *Wizards*, who work wonders for them.

 

[Joerg]

13 minutes ago, Darius West said:

While a reasonable assessment of the evidence, it appears this is just not the case.  The simple fact is that ordinary people in the West don't have access to sorcery, but they do need to be involved in the religion if the religion is to work, and that means hagiolatry, i.e. taking patrons.

The Malkioni (mandatory?) worship rites to the Invisible God produce a magical connection to the Creator, overseen by the wizards who partake in the magical energies, using those to cast some of their (magic-point draining) sorcerous magic on behalf of the congregation or their overlords.

This isn't that different from the Pelorian model of theism where the majority of the population is happy to worship and sacrifice as lay members, leaving the handling of magic to the priests and holy people overseeing those rites, possibly accessing the wyter's ability to cast magic on behalf of the community.

[Tindalos]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Because that's not what Saints and Masters are all about.  They become saints due to important philosophical discoveries, not petty mundane concerns.  Think the Theory of Gravity or the Discovery of Phosphorous.  People in charge of crafts and trade would be Heroes rather than Saints.

So it's more likely for there to be an Ascended Master of Economics and Governance, who wrote a great grimoire similar to the Arthashastra?

[metcalph]

3 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

So it's more likely for there to be an Ascended Master of Economics and Governance, who wrote a great grimoire similar to the Arthashastra?

Like Siglat did for Losklam.

[Darius West]

9 hours ago, metcalph said:

The ordinary people of the West do not believe in the Invisible God, who does nothing for them.

They believe in the *Wizards*, who work wonders for them.

Most westerners will have a patron saint.  And they do believe in the Invisible god, but their Zzaburi are the intermediaries of that god; as you say, ordinary people can't work sorcery as they haven't learned how, and likely doubt that they can learn as it is in the interests of the Zzaburi to keep them ignorant of such things.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Most westerners will have a patron saint. 

They do?  You should be careful in the sources you are using.  I have no idea whether you are happy with Trotsky's work or just want modern thinking on the matter.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

And they do believe in the Invisible god, but their Zzaburi are the intermediaries of that god; as you say, ordinary people can't work sorcery as they haven't learned how, and likely doubt that they can learn as it is in the interests of the Zzaburi to keep them ignorant of such things.

Ordinary people are ignorant of sorcery because it requires literary and intense study.  There is nothing the Zzaburi can say or do to change that regardless of their attitude towards their inferiors.