Wyters, Rune Pools, Truestone, and Matrixes

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, Dragon said:

Then I think you mean 'latter' rather than former. But maybe I misunderstood.

D'oh! 🙄

I'll edit it...

Thx!

Edited February 19, 2022 by Shiningbrow

[davecake]

On 2/18/2022 at 7:03 PM, PhilHibbs said:

I used to think that a wyter, literally a "community spirit", was a new entity, in the same way that a person's own spirit is new when they are born. Apart from reincarnation, I suppose, but we think of it as a "new beginning".

While it’s possible that that can happen, it seems clear in the RQG Gloranthan Bestiary that usually a wyter is usually a spirit that becomes a wyter. There are a few sort of metaphysical questions there that I hope will get clarified at some point - what exactly is the ontology of Loyalty (Community) passions vs wyters, etc, and does heroquesting for a new wyter create or discover it. But it can certainly be a pre-existing spirit that becomes a wyter, because we have several examples of that. 

 

On 2/18/2022 at 9:26 PM, Bill the barbarian said:

And to you I say what is a god? It has been long argued on our world...

Sure, but the two are usually distinguished in Glorantha. If you want to play terminology games, then if you distinguish between gods and spirits wyters can be either, if you don’t distinguish why are even asking? The point I am making is that wyters can have a variety of different metaphysical origins, and some also grant Rune magic and some do not. 
 

On 2/19/2022 at 12:16 PM, Shiningbrow said:

I'd suggest localisation. A god can feel the worship and respond from anywhere, whereas a spirit can't.

That doesn’t seem to be the case, though that is common. It’s more to with whether it has a priesthood - but it may well be that it’s really more about how you approach and contact an entity than the nature of the entity. Or something about its ability to grant rune magic or receive worship. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

While it’s possible that that can happen, it seems clear in the RQG Gloranthan Bestiary that usually a wyter is usually a spirit that becomes a wyter. There are a few sort of metaphysical questions there that I hope will get clarified at some point - what exactly is the ontology of Loyalty (Community) passions vs wyters, etc, and does heroquesting for a new wyter create or discover it. But it can certainly be a pre-existing spirit that becomes a wyter, because we have several examples of that. 

I just had an idea about it

- a wyter describes a community.

- a community is described by a common story

- it is said that there is a community XXX when there is a loyalty XXX passion. but why not saying a loyalty XXX passion can exist only when the community XXX exists

- the community and the wyter are created together. No wyter => no community, no community => no wyter

 

then my conclusion
when people  created a community , they lost something enough important to create an important event for their common story.

this lost creates the wyter so the community

this lost can be:

#1  the leader's death, people mourned her/him, enough to create a big event, a memory, and her /his soul became the wyter. Maybe during the burial, they sacrifice some POW /mp in addition to keep the soul with them, as a for ever beacon.

for example, a warband may have its "first victim" (or not the first...) to create a strong enough bound to the party

 

#2  the people found a local spirit, and had to form an alliance to survive/ be accepted by this local spirit (could be a nymph, an animal spirit, a smart elemental...) This alliance is built on POW sacrifice (= the lost is a part of their souls, not one soul as #1)

 

#3 the people demonstrated a big  interest to be more than just an addition of individuals. They decided by themselves to found a protector, the guarantor of allegiance/loyalty oath.

Then they heroquested to find this new bound protector. Of course heroquesting needs the pre-community's support. And the spirit will request a big price to accept the alliance. Same process than #2.

The difference is in #2 the spirit visits the people and the people accept when #3 is the people visit the spirit and the spirit accepts.

 

#4 same than #3 (heroquest process), but it is an accident. During the heroquest, the party found a spirit and for any reason, at the heroquest's end, the spirit is now the wyter of the party.

 

nothing is lost, nothing is created, everything is transformed.

[JRE]

It sounds good, but in the RW the death for #1 could well be a deliberate sacrifice, either voluntary or involuntary, to create a protecting spirit. That should be even more prevalent in Glorantha where the spirit effectiveness is more evident.

The forced or volunteer factor may well affect the interaction of the wyter with the people it serves. Seems appropiate for regimental spirits with voluntary sacrifices, and in many cities people were sacrificed and interred in the foundation of the walls. Animal sacrifices may also be used, though that may also be bait to attract other spirits.

Further sacrifices may be used to strengthen the wyter, specially in times of need, but the first should set the tone for the following sacrifices. It feels mythically correct also for founders and elders to join in some form their community wyter to keep helping the community. It will depend on the aftermath expectatives and local religion. 

Reminds me of the Norse sacrificing captives and at times volunteers before battle. Romans despised routine human sacrifice, but they still sacrificed important enemies in religious ceremonies (like Vercingetorix).

The good king Sartar is a well known proponent of #3, above, and I am quite sure the kingdom he founded does not support human sacrifices, but I also think that rule relaxed while there was no queen or king in Sartar.

[Shiningbrow]

2 minutes ago, JRE said:

It sounds good, but in the RW the death for #1 could well be a deliberate sacrifice, either voluntary or involuntary, to create a protecting spirit. That should be even more prevalent in Glorantha where the spirit effectiveness is more evident.

The forced or volunteer factor may well affect the interaction of the wyter with the people it serves. Seems appropiate for regimental spirits with voluntary sacrifices, and in many cities people were sacrificed and interred in the foundation of the walls. Animal sacrifices may also be used, though that may also be bait to attract other spirits.

Further sacrifices may be used to strengthen the wyter, specially in times of need, but the first should set the tone for the following sacrifices. It feels mythically correct also for founders and elders to join in some form their community wyter to keep helping the community. It will depend on the aftermath expectatives and local religion. 

Reminds me of the Norse sacrificing captives and at times volunteers before battle. Romans despised routine human sacrifice, but they still sacrificed important enemies in religious ceremonies (like Vercingetorix).

The good king Sartar is a well known proponent of #3, above, and I am quite sure the kingdom he founded does not support human sacrifices, but I also think that rule relaxed while there was no queen or king in Sartar.

I don't think an unwilling sentient sacrifice would be a good idea for your wyter... 

[French Desperate WindChild]

51 minutes ago, JRE said:

It sounds good, but in the RW the death for #1 could well be a deliberate sacrifice, either voluntary or involuntary, to create a protecting spirit. That should be even more prevalent in Glorantha where the spirit effectiveness is more evident.

The forced or volunteer factor may well affect the interaction of the wyter with the people it serves. Seems appropiate for regimental spirits with voluntary sacrifices, and in many cities people were sacrificed and interred in the foundation of the walls. Animal sacrifices may also be used, though that may also be bait to attract other spirits.

note that for #1 I don't say "sacrifice", but "lost", aka the leader dies (for any reason, broos, battle, old-age, accident... or sacrifice) then decides (is not forced) to become the wyter

 

I agree that forcing the sacrifice would be difficult... but why not, you get a chaotic wyter, as your new born community is now chaotic !

[Shiningbrow]

15 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I agree that forcing the sacrifice would be difficult... but why not, you get a chaotic wyter, as your new born community is now chaotic !

Or all the fun and hilarity of having a Trickster spirit as your wyter... 

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I agree that forcing the sacrifice would be difficult... but why not, you get a chaotic wyter, as your new born community is now chaotic !

There's nothing chaotic about sacrifice. It's a sacred act, not a profane one, it's right there in the first half of the word.

[JRE]

It clearly depends on your community and its religion. I am quite sure many regiments start by sacrificing the best soldier, to become the patron spirit, as they did in the RW (when people believed in their religion), and it was a great honor to win the sacrificial games. Just consider the Tournament of Luck and Death, which I do not think anyone in the Holy Country considered chaotic or tricksterish, and has a voluntary sacrifice to embody the protector spirit / demigod of the Holy Country.

We have sacrificial kings or queens, why not doing the same in a small scale? An octogenarian elder willing to strengthen the community rather than going to Orlanth's tula will probably be honored.

Now, consider a warband of Tusk Riders. Are they Chaotic? No. Are they disorderly? Sure. And I am pretty sure they do not sacrifice their own POW to their communal wyter, but somebody's else.

Most religions are willing to sacrifice people (some heroquests require deaths, and if you want real power, that will not be pretend...) for the right reasons. And many will prefer to sacrifice a stranger, whether a scapegoat, or a ritual enemy, or a source of magic in war. 

Most communities connected to PCs will not sacrifice people, or do so only in a voluntary basis. Unless you play Uz. Or Lunars. Or Old Tarshites... 

 

 

[JRE]

As I tend to write too much, my point is that if people are willing to sacrifice people when you have no clear magical benefit (Earth) they will do so when there is a clear magical benefit (Glorantha). And if sacrificing one soldier protects a thousand, all armies will be willing to sacrifice a few hundreds. One willing volunteer may save dozens of her comrades, so I am sure it will be done.

That also allows to give some quirks and personalities to the Wyter.

[Shiningbrow]

On 2/22/2022 at 10:00 PM, PhilHibbs said:

There's nothing chaotic about sacrifice. It's a sacred act, not a profane one, it's right there in the first half of the word.

Sacrificing to the wyter is quite different to sacrificing for the wyter.