Wyters, Rune Pools, Truestone, and Matrixes

[soltakss]

On 2/8/2022 at 10:26 AM, PhilHibbs said:

Could a wyter cast Find Enemy with Extension on lots of community members?

If it had the spells, sure, why not?

On 2/8/2022 at 10:26 AM, PhilHibbs said:

Could a wyter use Rune Points to do this rather than burning POW, and should wyters even have RP anyway?

In my Glorantha, Wyters have Rune Points. Burning POW to cast spells is ridiculous for a Temple Spirit, in my opinion.

On 2/8/2022 at 10:26 AM, PhilHibbs said:

Can you mix Rune Point pools to cast Extension?

In my opinion, yes, why not?

On 2/8/2022 at 10:26 AM, PhilHibbs said:

Can you cast Extension on a spell in a matrix or truestone?

Yes, again, why not?

 

[PhilHibbs]

On 2/8/2022 at 10:26 AM, PhilHibbs said:

• Can you mix Rune Point pools to cast Extension?

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

In my opinion, yes, why not?

Because you are acting as, manifesting as, your deity when you access your RP to cast spells. Can you act as two deities at once?

On 2/8/2022 at 10:26 AM, PhilHibbs said:

• Can you cast Extension on a spell in a matrix or truestone?

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

Yes, again, why not?

Similar reasoning. You don't embody the deity in order to trigger a spell in a matrix. You don't need to know how to. The matrix is the link to the deity, not the user.

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Because you are acting as, manifesting as, your deity when you access your RP to cast spells. Can you act as two deities at once?

To me, a spell is a spell is a spell.

Chalana Arroy Priestesses have an ability to bring someone out of a Berserk Rage. Does that only affect Storm Bull cultists? No, it affects anyone with the Berserker spell. The spell is the important thing.

Using Orlanth Extension on a Humakt spell means that Orlanth just shows that he is good with any Runemagic.

If I trade for Truesword and cast it, why can't I use my Orlanth extension on it?

I like MGF and allowing things like this is easier than discussing it.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

7 minutes ago, soltakss said:

To me, a spell is a spell is a spell.

Chalana Arroy Priestesses have an ability to bring someone out of a Berserk Rage. Does that only affect Storm Bull cultists? No, it affects anyone with the Berserker spell. The spell is the important thing.

Using Orlanth Extension on a Humakt spell means that Orlanth just shows that he is good with any Runemagic.

If I trade for Truesword and cast it, why can't I use my Orlanth extension on it?

I like MGF and allowing things like this is easier than discussing it.

 

One choice among others

personaly i dislike the concept of divine spell is a spell

worshippers are worshippers not sorcerers

Gods are gods, not source of magic

but all dépends on players and gm table, for sure

[Shiningbrow]

9 hours ago, soltakss said:

To me, a spell is a spell is a spell.

Chalana Arroy Priestesses have an ability to bring someone out of a Berserk Rage. Does that only affect Storm Bull cultists? No, it affects anyone with the Berserker spell. The spell is the important thing.

Using Orlanth Extension on a Humakt spell means that Orlanth just shows that he is good with any Runemagic.

If I trade for Truesword and cast it, why can't I use my Orlanth extension on it?

I like MGF and allowing things like this is easier than discussing it.

 

Because you can end up in.the situation of having a Stormbull Counter-Chaos being extended by a Thed Extension. (Ok, I didn't check the rules for Counter-Chaos, but the general principle is what I'm getting at).

As said above, a Rune Spell is invoking a piece of the god and it's power. It's not sorcery ("a spell is a spell is a spell").

[soltakss]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Because you can end up in.the situation of having a Stormbull Counter-Chaos being extended by a Thed Extension. (Ok, I didn't check the rules for Counter-Chaos, but the general principle is what I'm getting at).

Personally, I am fine with that.

[JRE]

I agree, and I believe that is a big part of what the GLs were after, that the Gods cannot choose, and they just act machine-like when the right buttons are pressed.

What broke the GLs is that other people can heroquest to reconfigure their gods, so the button now does something different, and there are certain mechanisms, embodied in Arachne Solara, that act to prevent excessive tampering. 

There may well be psychological barriers that keep an Orlanthi from actually using a Ragnaglarg spell matrix, or a Sunspear from a Yelmite Truestone, and that may well be represented by requiring failed "Love Orlanth" and "Loyalty Temple" checks, but the barrier is in the character's mind, not in the magic. 

[Glyph]

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Chalana Arroy Priestesses have an ability to bring someone out of a Berserk Rage. Does that only affect Storm Bull cultists? No, it affects anyone with the Berserker spell. The spell is the important thing.

It does only affects Storm Bull cultists, it's down to the associated cult ties between the two cults

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Glyph said:

It does only affects Storm Bull cultists, it's down to the associated cult ties between the two cults

While I’m leaning in that direction, it’s not really clear from the text.

Also, who is a ”worshiper”? Does lay member count?

Edited February 11, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Glyph said:

It does only affects Storm Bull cultists, it's down to the associated cult ties between the two cults

Thanks, I had forgotten that

[Glyph]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

While I’m leaning in that direction, it’s not really clear from the text.

Also, who is a ”worshiper”? Does lay member count?

It's clearer under the Berserker spell description in Red Book of Magic (P16/17) - it also change the relevant stat from POW to CHA

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Glyph
Update

[Joerg]

On 2/10/2022 at 9:25 AM, soltakss said:

In my Glorantha, Wyters have Rune Points. Burning POW to cast spells is ridiculous for a Temple Spirit, in my opinion.

Temple Spirits are a special case of Wyters, and have a clear initiatory relationship to the deity whose temple they guard, which is why I am fine with giving them rune points to provide rune spells as blessings.

I would not allow them to use the community "add another POW to affect up to five community members" feature with these rune points, though.

IMG there are plenty wyters that do not have a direct temple relation. Their communities determine the maximum manifestable strength of the wyter, expressed as their POW stat which also defines the MP holding capacity of the wyter from worship. (NPC) community members might be willing to sacrifice POW gained in worship involving the wyter to the community spirit rather than retaining it for their personal growth. PCs might do so rarely, too. Often upon joining a community, proving their sincerity and commitment. (I wonder whether something like that happens in marriage rites, too.).

[Akhôrahil]

On 2/11/2022 at 9:17 PM, Joerg said:

I would not allow them to use the community "add another POW to affect up to five community members" feature with these rune points, though.

This is my line of thinking as well. Spirits can have Rune Magic, so why not Wyters? But they can’t do their cool community casting with it. 

It seems weird that something like a Snake Daughter wouldn’t have ”personal” Earth magic (and apparently whoever wrote the Bestiary item for them agreed).

Edited February 15, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Dragon]

On 2/10/2022 at 8:40 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Because you can end up in.the situation of having a Stormbull Counter-Chaos being extended by a Thed Extension. (Ok, I didn't check the rules for Counter-Chaos, but the general principle is what I'm getting at).

As said above, a Rune Spell is invoking a piece of the god and it's power. It's not sorcery ("a spell is a spell is a spell").

That sure sounds like you are nerfing Thanatari with multiple Heads. Why can't the Doomed pull Counter-Chaos out of the troll head and Extension out of the Orlanthi head? Or would you allow it if and only if the Thanatari had expended their own POW to make the head's Rune Points reusable (and thus the god Than helped them steal the magic and make it their own)?

How about vampires which steal some Rune Magic and Rune Points from someone just as they take their last magic points with their Touch attack? Are they incapable of combining Rune Magic from multiple sources too?

Note: I am extrapolating from previous editions on how Thanatar and Vivamort will work in RQG.

i.e. that view just creates more complications and bookkeeping. If you want that in your campaign, it is your Glorantha🤦‍♀️. Personally I don't want to document all the caveats and implications and somehow make them consistent with how I interpreted it 5 months ago. (Note: I do keep a house rules file, just not that complicated.)

[PhilHibbs]

15 minutes ago, Dragon said:

How about vampires which steal some Rune Magic and Rune Points from someone just as they take their last magic points with their Touch attack? Are they incapable of combining Rune Magic from multiple sources too?

That's a good point, although vampire rune spell stealing has to change as people don't have points in individual rune spells any more, just like truestone had to change.

[French Desperate WindChild]

37 minutes ago, Dragon said:

That sure sounds like you are nerfing Thanatari with multiple Heads. Why can't the Doomed pull Counter-Chaos out of the troll head and Extension out of the Orlanthi head? Or would you allow it if and only if the Thanatari had expended their own POW to make the head's Rune Points reusable (and thus the god Than helped them steal the magic and make it their own)?

How about vampires which steal some Rune Magic and Rune Points from someone just as they take their last magic points with their Touch attack? Are they incapable of combining Rune Magic from multiple sources too?

Note: I am extrapolating from previous editions on how Thanatar and Vivamort will work in RQG.

i.e. that view just creates more complications and bookkeeping. If you want that in your campaign, it is your Glorantha🤦‍♀️. Personally I don't want to document all the caveats and implications and somehow make them consistent with how I interpreted it 5 months ago. (Note: I do keep a house rules file, just not that complicated.)

that's a good point however,

from my perspective, a thanatari forces "his" heads to do things, the thanatari gets the knowledge, yes, but not the link with the heads gods. the head casts its own spells

for vampire, I have no idea, but I would be concerned (well --> house rules 😛 ) if official rules say you can combine different sources

let's wait for the cults description !

 

[Shiningbrow]

On 2/16/2022 at 10:41 PM, Dragon said:

That sure sounds like you are nerfing Thanatari with multiple Heads.

Only if you played it that way originally.

It still all depends on how you view what Rune Spells are. If they're just spells, and thus the difference between Rune, Spirit and Sorcery is negligible (except for how to acquire and cast), then sure - feel free to mix and match to your heart's content.

However, if Rune Spells are your personal connection to that particular deity, and the act of casting is calling upon that deity to come to the middle world and extend its power, then combining Extension with other spells from other Rune pools doesn't make sense. And thus, your different heads can't really put their heads together... 

My personal take on that is that it feels more Gloranthan for the former latter* view - your god actually manifests in some small way when you cast your Rune Spells... (but maybe not enough to know who is using that RP)

 

(thx @Dragon)

Edited February 19, 2022 by Shiningbrow

[davecake]

On 2/9/2022 at 2:13 AM, Bill the barbarian said:

See above, I question whether they are spirits or gods. I aver they are spirits but will allow any and all to call them gods and if their is good evidence that worship gains the worshipper in any way, my opinion is thus lessened.

It’s pretty clear that wyters can be any of these and more. A wyter is an otherworld being that is the focus of a communities sense of unity - and before it became the wyter it can have been a spirit, a small god, a ghost, an elemental, a sorcerous creation, etc. 

On 2/9/2022 at 5:30 PM, Shiningbrow said:

what do the community members get from effectively initiating themselves to the wyter? The people hand over their POW and MPs, but what do they get from the spirit? Is there a connection made that can be called upon?

In the generic case - the whole point of a wyter is it’s not about you personally, it is about the community. And usually to be used as the community leader directs, so you may get nothing at all personally from the wyter - the wyter may even be used in ways that are terrible for you personally, but benefit the community. 

BUT the wyter need not be just a wyter. It may have along history before it became a wyter, it may continue to evolve and grow with its community after it becomes a wyter. City wyters are often city gods as well, and can grant the City Harmony runespell - and some city gods are much more than just that, like Raiba or Glamour. Wyters of Orlanthi tribes may also be Orlanthi cult heroes. A nymph of the local area might become a wyter, and also is a minor god, and probably part of the local Earth (or other element as appropriate) cult. An elemental might not grant spells, but might be summonable in to physical form to defend its community - some might that is better! A sorcerously created artificial psychic entity might grant less powers to its community directly, but enable community sorcerers to cast great spells over the whole community. 
A wyter should vary hugely in practice, because a wyter is more like a very primal magical principle that is usable in a variety of ways than it is like a type of being, and varies at least as much as communities do. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

In the generic case - the whole point of a wyter is it’s not about you personally, it is about the community. And usually to be used as the community leader directs, so you may get nothing at all personally from the wyter - the wyter may even be used in ways that are terrible for you personally, but benefit the community. 

that's true.

However I like the idea that a wyter has its own personality, it acts for the community but may have some feeling (good or bad) for someone in particular.

That adds some "faerie" in the world, the wyter is someOne, not only someThing

[PhilHibbs]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

It’s pretty clear that wyters can be any of these and more. A wyter is an otherworld being that is the focus of a communities sense of unity - and before it became the wyter it can have been a spirit, a small god, a ghost, an elemental, a sorcerous creation, etc. 

I used to think that a wyter, literally a "community spirit", was a new entity, in the same way that a person's own spirit is new when they are born. Apart from reincarnation, I suppose, but we think of it as a "new beginning".

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

I used to think that a wyter, literally a "community spirit", was a new entity, in the same way that a person's own spirit is new when they are born. Apart from reincarnation, I suppose, but we think of it as a "new beginning".

A wyter is a manifest spirit holding the spiritual energy of a collective. One of the IMO earliest such expression in Gloranthan publication were the Protectresses in Nomad Gods, the collective magical power of the herd beasts of one type manifesting as (daughters of) Eiritha in a shape that has the beast body and the eater head of the tribe. Though this seems to be a consequence of Waha's Covenant which defined the respective roles of the two-legs and four-legs of each tribe, without any definition of who would be the protector and who would be the protected in the Golden Age (and mainly Storm Age) bliss of pre-Earthfall Genert's Garden/Tada's Kingdom with its savannah and abundant fruit trees. The earlier fore-runners of wyters were the magical regiments' detachable spirits, with discoporate magicians using mystical methods to attack over vast distances. David Gemmel's Drenai novels have a similar concept both with the suicidal Temple of the Thirty and with the horse nomad shamans.

Both the Kingdom of Sartar as a whole and the cities founded by Sartar and his local co-founders (like Wilms and Hauberk Jon) had wyters before the founders took on that role. In case of the Kingdom, we know that Sartar undertook a Westfaring to provide the wyter for the Quivini.

[Bill the barbarian]

 

8 hours ago, davecake said:

On 2/8/2022 at 11:13 AM, Bill the barbarian said:

See above, I question whether they are spirits or gods. I aver they are spirits but will allow any and all to call them gods and if their is good evidence that worship gains the worshipper in any way, my opinion is thus lessened.

It’s pretty clear that wyters can be any of these and more. A wyter is an otherworld being that is the focus of a communities sense of unity - and before it became the wyter it can have been a spirit, a small god, a ghost, an elemental, a sorcerous creation, etc. 

And to you I say what is a god? It has been long argued on our world... Can’t see it being a slam dunk on the lozenge... seeing as we will not be able to define a god in a logical and concise way (this has been tried... to very detrimental effect in Glorantha) I will once again stand on my above comments.

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I used to think that a wyter, literally a "community spirit", was a new entity, in the same way that a person's own spirit is new when they are born. Apart from reincarnation, I suppose, but we think of it as a "new beginning".

I think both of these happen. You can ask a pre-existing entity to adopt you (after all, you will keep feeding it POW and MPs, so it can be a pretty sweet deal), or you can "find" your Wyter by heroquesting for it (and at this point, there will be no difference between "finding" and "creating" it). Your wyter may have its own personality in either case.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

14 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

 

And to you I say what is a god? It has been long argued on our world... Can’t see it being a slam dunk on the lozenge... seeing as we will not be able to define a god in a logical and concise way (this has been tried... to very detrimental effect in Glorantha) I will once again stand on my above comments.

I'd suggest localisation. A god can feel the worship and respond from anywhere, whereas a spirit can't. (Of course, that does depend on how you play your spirit cults).

(And thus, I'd be fine with the introduction of rules pertaining to limiting the power of Rune Spells outside of the entities domain. However, I recognise the complications).

[Dragon]

On 2/17/2022 at 7:19 PM, Shiningbrow said:

My personal take on that is that it feels more Gloranthan for the former view - your god actually manifests in some small way when you cast your Rune Spells

Then I think you mean 'latter' rather than former. But maybe I misunderstood.