Wyters, Rune Pools, Truestone, and Matrixes

[PhilHibbs]

Splitting off from the Detect Enemies as spoiler thread.

Topics:

• Could a wyter cast Find Enemy with Extension on lots of community members?
• Could a wyter use Rune Points to do this rather than burning POW, and should wyters even have RP anyway?
• Can you mix Rune Point pools to cast Extension?
• Can you cast Extension on a spell in a matrix or truestone?

Various opinions exchanged on this. Quote posts from the other thread here, so that it doesn't get locked for being off-topic!

Edited February 8, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[French Desperate WindChild]

my global principles :

• wyters are spirits from a community, when the community worships a pantheon, a wyter should be seen as a "sub cult / part" of the deitiy. As a sub part of the god, wyter should have a part of the god's power = RP and list of spells. I make a difference with initiation: they are not initiates, they are "sub-god"
• rune magic is divine magic, you call the power of your god, you don't do what you want with your powers. Do what you want with sorcery, not with the gods

then :

15 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Could a wyter cast Find Enemy with Extension on lots of community members?

depends on the wyter's capacity, spells known, etc. stronger it is more capacity it has. Why not this one ?

16 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Could a wyter use Rune Points to do this rather than burning POW, and should wyters even have RP anyway?

no, the rules are clear (bestiary p174)

"A wyter spends points of its characteristic POW instead of Rune points when casting Rune spells with a chance of success equal to its CHAx5. "

what it means for me ? wyter have rune points (same page, Kogui has 10 RP / 23 POW) but this RP are not here to be  burned, they just say what is the limit of manipulation, you may have 23POW, you cannot use a divine spell (extension included) with more than your rune points (10)

that's the big point :  wyters are not initiates,  wyter are gods on mundane world

28 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Can you mix Rune Point pools to cast Extension?

of course no (of course = my idea, you can do what you want 😛 )

29 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Can you cast Extension on a spell in a matrix or truestone?

what is a matrix ? an extension (no joke ) of your soul or a part/remains of the original caster soul  ?

so for me : the matrix contains your soul (you are the caster during the enchantement process)... why not. You get the matrix from someone else ... would say no

That is the difference with sorcery.

what is truestone ? clealry I m lost to answer (I know what is it that is not the point)

for this question I hope we will have some official answer, even if I don't follow it, I will appreciate to understand the official point

 

[Scotty]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Splitting off from the Detect Enemies as spoiler thread.

Great questions to add to the Q&A. (some already have an answer), I've answered here:

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/15243-runequest-qa/page/24/#comment-244653

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Various opinions exchanged on this. Quote posts from the other thread here, so that it doesn't get locked for being off-topic!

Carry on...

[Scotty]

48 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

what is a matrix

A type of enchantment that can hold spirit or rune magic. See:

• Spell Matrix Enchantment (Spirit magic). Spirit magic only, available to Aldrya, Daka Fal, Mallia, Seven Mothers, Telmor, Thed, and to associate cults Eiritha, Chalana Arroy, Ernalda, Yelm, Yelmalio, Kyger Litor, & Odayla.
• Matrix Creation (Rune magic). Spirit or rune magic, rune levels only, available to all RQG Cults.

 

[Akhôrahil]

What makes for efficient Wyter-casting is totally different from what’s efficient use of regular Rune Magic - it’s all about that multi-targeting, which in turn means that buffs, heals and the like are the strong powers for a wyter.

If your Wyter has some resurrect spell (one-use is fine), it can chain-resurrect dozens of people after a fight for a very reasonable cost. Extension is incredibly boss as it doesn’t care about the regular lock-up of RPs - while 15 POW is a large investment, it allows for a Shield 5 + Extension 5 cast on 26 clan warriors, for a year-long Shield 5 effect, something that should be very useful in a war, for the rather moderate cost of maybe 2% of adult clan members having to sacrifice a point of POW to fix the Wyter up afterwards.

So yes, that Detect Enemies use works along the same lines.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

A type of enchantment that can hold spirit or rune magic. See:

• Spell Matrix Enchantment (Spirit magic). Spirit magic only, available to Aldrya, Daka Fal, Mallia, Seven Mothers, Telmor, Thed, and to associate cults Eiritha, Chalana Arroy, Ernalda, Yelm, Yelmalio, Kyger Litor, & Odayla.
• Matrix Creation (Rune magic). Spirit or rune magic, rune levels only, available to all RQG Cults.

 

no no, of course  I know it 😛

 

my point is "what is a matrix in the world of glorantha, if I were a Nochet scholar, how could I understand what is a matrix"

[Akhôrahil]

21 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

my point is "what is a matrix in the world of glorantha, if I were a Nochet scholar, how could I understand what is a matrix"

I'm fairly sure it needs a "physical substrate", such as an item (it does say "item") or a tattoo (which isn't listed but makes sense to me).

[French Desperate WindChild]

21 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I'm fairly sure it needs a "physical substrate", such as an item (it does say "item") or a tattoo (which isn't listed but makes sense to me).

that must be more than that (of course there is something like what you say) something more "spiritual" "from the otherworld", etc...

 

there are two way to answer @PhilHibbs questions:

- a pure gameplay perspective: what is allowed, what can do the players

- a background perspective explaining "why" players can do or not. That is what I m looking for.

 I can easily (with my taste, of course, others could decide something else) answer that I don't allow a runespell matrix to be extended or that two runepools cannot be merged to create a more powerful effect. I have a "gloranthan rational" for that, that is not only "because it is the rule in the book p XXX".

and my point about matrix (and even more with truestone) is I have not enough "gloranthan rational". I supposed the soul extension of the creator (the caster, not the craftman)

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[Kloster]

49 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

there are two way to answer @PhilHibbs questions:

- a pure gameplay perspective: what is allowed, what can do the players

- a background perspective explaining "why" players can do or not. That is what I m looking for.

I need both, but am more interested by the first as, for me, RQ (even RQG) is not automatically linked to Glorantha, and the 2nd answer depends on the world you are playing in.

[Kloster]

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

A type of enchantment that can hold spirit or rune magic. See:

• Spell Matrix Enchantment (Spirit magic). Spirit magic only, available to Aldrya, Daka Fal, Mallia, Seven Mothers, Telmor, Thed, and to associate cults Eiritha, Chalana Arroy, Ernalda, Yelm, Yelmalio, Kyger Litor, & Odayla.
• Matrix Creation (Rune magic). Spirit or rune magic, rune levels only, available to all RQG Cults.

 

As a matter of fact, why no sorcery?

[Scotty]

4 minutes ago, Kloster said:

As a matter of fact, why no sorcery?

Not part of the Core rules. See Memorizing Spells in the Q&A.

[PhilHibbs]

5 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Not part of the Core rules. See Memorizing Spells in the Q&A.

Don't mind if I do...

Quote

Can anyone, other than the sorcerer donate POW towards an inscribed spell? 

Given the above, “anyone” is limited to sorcerers who know the spell and can participate in the enchantment/inscription. 

You know what that says to me? "Lottery Inscriptions"!

Great. Now I'm offtopic in my own offtopic-split-off-thread.

[Kloster]

13 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Not part of the Core rules. See Memorizing Spells in the Q&A.

This I know. I am asking why, in the core rules, you have Spirit and Rune matrix, but no Sorcery matrix. What is the reason behind this choice?

[Bill the barbarian]

7 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

• Could a wyter cast Find Enemy with Extension on lots of community members?

Can not imagine a rule saying nay.

7 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

• Could a wyter use Rune Points to do this rather than burning POW, and should wyters even have RP anyway?

Will need to d a bit of research elsewhere and here (looking forward to seeing opinions, canonical and otherwise).

7 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

• Can you mix Rune Point pools to cast Extension?

Still waiting on looking up wyter’s RP... but I still can safely say, I would allow it. I had asked Scotty and Jason about multiple casters sharing RPs for a large spell other than an enchantment (see Reaching Moon Temple ceremonies enacted over several years as examples that must have need more RPs than a human could produce, true some would be enchantments but some would be rituals...). Scotty suggested to let MGF decide.

7 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

• Can you cast Extension on a spell in a matrix or truestone?

No opinion as of yet.

Great question!

[Bill the barbarian]

11 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

wyters are spirits from a community, when the community worships a pantheon, a wyter should be seen as a "sub cult / part" of the deitiy.

Alas, I am not sure about this... I tend to separate Wyters from the gods unless a god gave the community a wyter. Same as I separate Spirits form gods... not saying a wyter can not become part of the religious life of a community... they are the community for good or ill. No Wyter, no community.

11 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

no, the rules are clear (bestiary p174)

"A wyter spends points of its characteristic POW instead of Rune points when casting Rune spells with a chance of success equal to its CHAx5. "

Thanks for a starting place. Will comment on your supposition later
cheers

 

11 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

that's the big point :  wyters are not initiates,  wyter are gods on mundane world

See above, I question whether they are spirits or gods. I aver they are spirits but will allow any and all to call them gods and if their is good evidence that worship gains the worshipper in any way, my opinion is thus lessened. No worries.
Chacun à son gôut, mon ami.

 

11 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

of course no (of course = my idea, you can do what you want 😛 )

11 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Yep, see above'

 

10 hours ago, Scotty said:

Carry on...

Thanks, and thanks for the data points!

10 hours ago, Scotty said:

Spell Matrix Enchantment (Spirit magic). Spirit magic only, available to Aldrya, Daka Fal, Mallia, Seven Mothers, Telmor, Thed, and to associate cults Eiritha, Chalana Arroy, Ernalda, Yelm, Yelmalio, Kyger Litor, & Odayla.

Would you think these to be

• jealously guarded cult powers 
• shared with good friends and allies or those who have helped in a major way
• or freely give for the right amount of coin?

Edited February 8, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[PhilHibbs]

5 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Don't mind if I do...

You know what that says to me? "Lottery Inscriptions"!

Also, Lottery matrixes. Everyone puts in 1 POW, or other agreed amount, and chips in to pay a priest to cast it and put 1 POW in, for a condition "only usable by cult members". Some competition determines the winner, and terms for challenging vary.

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Joerg]

19 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Also, Lottery matrixes. Everyone puts in 1 POW, or other agreed amount, and chips in to pay a priest to cast it and put 1 POW in, for a condition "only usable by cult members". Some competition determines the winner, and terms for challenging vary.

 

Sounds dangerously similar to why the EWF Third Council went wrong.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

See above, I question whether they are spirits or gods. I aver they are spirits but will allow any and all to call them gods and if their is good evidence that worship gains the worshipper in any way, my option is thus lessened. No worries.
Chacun à son gôut, mon ami.

yes, my opinion follows this sentence (bestiary)

"A wyter is incapable of recovering its own magic points. Instead, the community worships the wyter and gives it magic points on the wyter’s seasonal holy days. This worship is often combined with that of a local cult, such as Orlanth or Ernalda, making the wyter a local subcult of the greater cult"

 

but, re-reading the sentence, I think something else.. .not so far than divinity but maybe more acceptable

subcult of the greater cult =>not only god's aspect  cult but hero cult  (well maybe heroes are minor god's aspect, maybe not)

it seems to me that it is approximately the same mechanic than hero points, as I understood Jeff during the white bull campaign, if you remember :

the hero points are not refreshed by the heroes activity (worshippin some god) but by their followers activity (heroes are worshipped).

 

seems to me this is the point (of course juste my "goût" no worries too, except your french is becoming better than my english, that's sad) :

there are people in mundane world who share their soul's energy (mp, pow) to gain power/feat from otherworld entities (hero, spirit, wyter, god ...), and hero, spirit, wyter, god, ...  in any planes, mundane included, who share their power but need energy from mundane world people to cast their hero power/feat (at least in mundane world),

I mean an entity may have some all-worlds powers, that need no energy from others (like a disease spirit sharing its disease) and  have some hero/god plane powers, that need energy when cast in others planes than hero/god planes

[Bill the barbarian]

20 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

seems to me this is the point (of course juste my "goût" no worries too, except your french is becoming better than my english, that's sad) :

 

Mais j'ai parlé Français depuis la sixième année d'école... J'espère que j'ai du “chops” hein? (sure hope I said that well or I will look silly!)

Bottom line, I like ambiguity in my worlds... Deity or powerful spirit/hero, this questions attracts those that want power... not joy. Godlearners!

20 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I mean an entity may have some all-worlds powers, that need no energy from others (like a disease spirit sharing its disease) and  have some hero/god plane powers, that need energy when cast in others planes than hero/god planes

Yep, gimme good ol’ ambiguity every time, for the win! Why should the players be able to figure it out. Just because it races like a horse, looks like a horse and gives birth like a horse don’t any tell you it is not a bird!

Edited February 8, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Shiningbrow]

I have further questions ...

Firstly, regarding Spirit spell matrices (and by extension - HA! - Truestone)... is there some part of the spirit that's actually trapped in the matrix? After all, we've been told that Spirit magic spells now mean that a part of the spirit integrates a bit of itself in those who learn their spells (hence the need for CHA to cast them...).

 

Secondly, what do the community members get from effectively initiating themselves to the wyter? The people hand over their POW and MPs, but what do they get from the spirit? Is there a connection made that can be called upon? Obviously, they can be the recipient's of the wyter's spells, but what about other connections? Eg, could they call for help and get the wyter's attention (within range)? Would it give them a plus to community based skills, like na augment? Presumably, if the wyter casts a Warding, then all members of the community can cross it freely...

[Scotty]

18 hours ago, Kloster said:

This I know. I am asking why, in the core rules, you have Spirit and Rune matrix, but no Sorcery matrix. What is the reason behind this choice?

Space. It's a list of sample spells for a magic system that is only fully described for Lhankor Mhy. Lhankor Mhy does not have access to such sorcery enchantments (but does have Matrix enchantment).

[PhilHibbs]

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Secondly, what do the community members get from effectively initiating themselves to the wyter? The people hand over their POW and MPs, but what do they get from the spirit? Is there a connection made that can be called upon? Obviously, they can be the recipient's of the wyter's spells, but what about other connections?

Whilst it's unlikely that any individual actually gets a spell cast on them, it still helps the community when others get buffed.

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Eg, could they call for help and get the wyter's attention (within range)?

I don't think so, not directly. The wyter might be able to sense that they are in danger, if it has powers that grant it perception within its domain, and it might be able to inform the community leader that it is bound to.

[French Desperate WindChild]

back to the truestone, I read again and again, I m not so sure of how you understand this sentence

Quote

They may be used for this over and over, but once part of a Truestone is ‘set,’ that part cannot be used for any other purpose

what does part mean ?

Forget what you know about truestone in previous edition

I m not sure that part means "the spells the first owner cast"

I m more convinced there are 3(4) parts:  room for spirit spell, room for divine spell, room for magic points (room for sorcery)

Why I am convinced ? because this sentence :

Quote

For example, an adventurer may take a blank Truestone  (...)  and put 10 pts. of spirit magic into the stone. That stone can now store any 10 pts. of spirit magic

the black bold defines the "room" of spirit magic. Am I wrong when I understand the red bold says you can put what you want as spirit spells with the only restriction that the amount of spirit spells is 10pts ?

example :

the first caster cast bladesharp 10

the true stone was used, and the next one fill with heal 6 and bladesharp 4 (6+4=10),

then heal was used, and the owner (different or not) can add strength and 4 points are available (4 old bladesharp+2+4)

 

is there some subtility I miss,

or the bias is our memory says "always the same spell" but, in fact, rqg says nothing about that ?

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

back to the truestone, I read again and again, I m not so sure of how you understand this sentence

Quote

They may be used for this over and over, but once part of a Truestone is ‘set,’ that part cannot be used for any other purpose

It means if you have a 10 point stone then you can put 2 points of Rune Magic into it, four points are set, and there are 6 left. Then you can put a three point Spirit Magic spell in it, three points are set, and there are three left. Then you can put 3 MP in and it's all set.

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Am I wrong when I understand the red bold says you can put what you want as spirit spells with the only restriction that the amount of spirit spells is 10pts ?

example :

the first caster cast bladesharp 10

the true stone was used, and the next one fill with heal 6 and bladesharp 4 (6+4=10),

then heal was used, and the owner (different or not) can add strength and 4 points are available (4 old bladesharp+2+4)

Correct. This is my least favourite part of the new mechanics, that it can be used to store anything within the type that it is first used for.

Edited February 9, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[French Desperate WindChild]

15 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Correct. This is my least favourite part of the new mechanics, that it can be used to store anything within the type that it is first used for.

it is easier for players use, for sure.

Now... I found it less epic than previously,that's "just" a spell matrix, but with ability to change the spells in the matrix after using it.

usefull but an upgrade. Not a great thing, empowered by the power of a community, when you can imagine people sacrificing all they can by devotion to their god, if the finder was strong enough to resist the stone, or just a poor artifact if the finder succumbed to the ring's stone's call