Serdrodosa's Nemesis

[Bohemond]

The Shaman traditions seem to always have a nemesis--The Horned God has the Bad Man, Kolat has Karjakan, etc. Does Serdrodosa have an equivalent opponent that she defeated but needs to keep defeating? For that matter, does Jakaleel the Witch have one?

[Martin]

IMG Serdrodosa has "Rabbitface"  he is a manifesation of Karjakan.  He imprionsed Serdrodoa in his "burrow" when she was called the "Queen of Five"

The Rabbitface

The Rabbitface is one of the manifestations of Karjakan the Spirit Lord. He looks like a very hairy bizarre rabbit-faced lagomorphic creature with large staring eyes and whiskers, the ears of a rabbit, the rear legs of a hare, and the tail and mallam streak of a badger.

The Queen of Five exbW

The Queen of Five is the name of Serdrodosa the Earth Witch when she was the unwilling bride of the Rabbitface. She was the mother of the five main types of burrowing animals: rabbits, badgers, moles, voles, and groundhogs.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Martin

[AlHazred]

I wonder if Serdrodosa's foe should be some form of Nontraya (from a Godlearner perspective).

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, AlHazred said:

I wonder if Serdrodosa's foe should be some form of Nontraya (from a Godlearner perspective).

That doesn't feel right for two reasons:

1) Nontraya is essentially an undead (possibly a variant name of Vivamort) - therefore might not actually have a spirit!

2) Serdrodosa/Earth Witch is the Earth spirit which did not sleep/go to the Underworld, so was not mythically part of the Earth goddess group that encountered Nontraya.

 

[Bohemond]

16 hours ago, Martin said:

IMG Serdrodosa has "Rabbitface"  he is a manifesation of Karjakan.  He imprionsed Serdrodoa in his "burrow" when she was called the "Queen of Five"

The Rabbitface

The Rabbitface is one of the manifestations of Karjakan the Spirit Lord. He looks like a very hairy bizarre rabbit-faced lagomorphic creature with large staring eyes and whiskers, the ears of a rabbit, the rear legs of a hare, and the tail and mallam streak of a badger.

The Queen of Five exbW

The Queen of Five is the name of Serdrodosa the Earth Witch when she was the unwilling bride of the Rabbitface. She was the mother of the five main types of burrowing animals: rabbits, badgers, moles, voles, and groundhogs.

Many thanks! Seems kind of odd that her enemy is just a variation of Kolat's, instead of being a distinct figure from the Earth tribe's myths. She represents a different shamanic tradition that Kolat, so it's strange that she has the same nemesis. 

[Martin]

 Karjakan as the Spirit Lord can have many faces  and forms. 

[AlHazred]

14 hours ago, jajagappa said:

That doesn't feel right for two reasons:

1) Nontraya is essentially an undead (possibly a variant name of Vivamort) - therefore might not actually have a spirit!

2) Serdrodosa/Earth Witch is the Earth spirit which did not sleep/go to the Underworld, so was not mythically part of the Earth goddess group that encountered Nontraya.

These are very good points. So I move to that part of the Earth Goddess group that did not sleep. Ty Kora Tek seems mythically similar in some ways; but I don't know that Ty Kora Tek had an enemy? Except for members of her own family, right? Didn't she have a mythic disagreement with Asrelia?

[David Scott]

On 6/29/2022 at 8:36 PM, Bohemond said:

The Shaman traditions seem to always have a nemesis--The Horned God has the Bad Man, Kolat has Karjakan, etc. Does Serdrodosa have an equivalent opponent that she defeated but needs to keep defeating?

It should be noted that they are all just masks of Bad Man. Karjakan = Bad Man.

Serdrodosa = Earth Witch - Asrelia. Asrelia is the Goddess of the Deep Earth, I can't see any obvious enemies that would be a mask of Bad Man, so Bad Man will do.

On 6/29/2022 at 8:36 PM, Bohemond said:

For that matter, does Jakaleel the Witch have one?

Bad Man takes the mask of Gbaji.

[scott-martin]

53 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Bad Man

Along these lines, especially in this context, is there a known shamanic tradition in Glorantha where Bad Man is a(nother) woman?

[AlHazred]

29 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Along these lines, especially in this context, is there a known shamanic tradition in Glorantha where Bad Man is a(nother) woman?

"Bad" in this context is from the shaman's perspective. I wonder if the Balazaring Lady of the Wilds is the Bad (Wo)Man for the Elder Wilds shamans? They're (presumably) trying to hunt animals and collect vegetables to stave off hunger; the Lady of the Wilds is the personification of the wilderness that makes this task difficult.

Edited July 1, 2022 by AlHazred

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

I can't see any obvious enemies that would be a mask of Bad Man, so Bad Man will do.

One could draw upon some of the eastern tradition figures, specifically: Shadow Cancer, Earth Eater, or Secret Waters.

I particularly like the second as it is very reminiscent of Krarsht (who certainly devours and tunnels through the earth).  The Hungry Maw might be a reasonable mask of the Bad Wo(Man) in this instance.

There's something to be said for how the waters devoured so much of the Earth cube though.

[AlHazred]

4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

There's something to be said for how the waters devoured so much of the Earth cube though.

The waters didn't devour the Earth Cube in the same way, though, right? When forced to retreat, they gave up the Earth back again. With Krarsht, it's just gone.

[jajagappa]

1 minute ago, AlHazred said:

When forced to retreat, they gave up the Earth back again.

Only where they hadn't finished devouring it.  There's a lot of land missing, not just the Spike.

Personally, I like the Bad Man=Earth Eater=Devouring Maw=Krarsht connection here as a real foe of the potential shaman.

Edited July 1, 2022 by jajagappa

[David Scott]

12 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Along these lines, especially in this context, is there a known shamanic tradition in Glorantha where Bad Man is a(nother) woman?

I'd say Yes, but as to where...

I can only think of one off the top of my head:

I'd have a Chalana Arroy assistant shaman encounter Mallia (as a mask of Bad Man) as their Greater Entity would be Chalana Arroy.

[David Scott]

12 hours ago, AlHazred said:

"Bad" in this context is from the shaman's perspective.

Bad as in birthed by Kajabor:

Quote

 

Weaving songs of power, he escaped Kajabor’s mesmeric grasp, and his rage birthed Bad Man.

RQG, The Horned Man, page 353.

 

 

[Joerg]

18 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Along these lines, especially in this context, is there a known shamanic tradition in Glorantha where Bad Man is a(nother) woman?

I think that there is a dose of the Vogmaradan myth from Entekosiad in this (or vice versa). The Bad Man appears to be the Other, separated from the One/Union.

But gender fluidity is part of quite a few shamanic concepts.

 

[Darius West]

On 7/1/2022 at 11:28 AM, jajagappa said:

2) Serdrodosa/Earth Witch is the Earth spirit which did not sleep/go to the Underworld

But fetches are often called upon to occupy the bodies of their shaman. Perhaps the meaning is allegorical and is actually a reference to this shamanic feat?

[jajagappa]

On 7/3/2022 at 6:31 AM, Darius West said:

Perhaps the meaning is allegorical and is actually a reference to this shamanic feat?

Yes, I think you could align the part (spirit) of the Earth that did not die, or was attuned to or part of the Spirit World, as a shamanic fetch that inhabited the Earth while the goddesses slept.  But would that change anything about Serdrodosa's nemesis?

[Darius West]

21 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, I think you could align the part (spirit) of the Earth that did not die, or was attuned to or part of the Spirit World, as a shamanic fetch that inhabited the Earth while the goddesses slept.  But would that change anything about Serdrodosa's nemesis?

It might be that the challenge for Serdrodosa was to escape her Nemesis rather than destroy it, given that Karjakan is eventually killed by Kolat.  Swapping places might play a role in that?

[AlHazred]

I mean, a key part of the Ernalda myth is dying going to sleep and then reviving. Shamans awakening their fetch in the game have frequently been portrayed as "self-resurrecting" (hence the Self-Resurrection power). There's a good synergy there. Ernalda brought most of the dead gods and goddesses back with her, with Voria leading the way; the fetch of the Serdrodosa myth must be one of these daimones that came back with her.