What are Nose Lopers? Some theorizing.

[Darius West]

I was recently reading the Glorantha Bestiary and came across the Loper on pages 150-151.  This creature is covered in eyes.  I suspect that this creature is therefore an Eye Loper, and we might reasonably therefore expect there to have been Ear Lopers, Tongue Lopers, and Nose Lopers based upon a similar model.  There might even be Touch-Lopers who manifest hands or some other touch-related organ.   I suspect that while the Eye-Loper is able to teleport, that this was a power related to their vision i.e. 'move as far as you can see' or something similar, and I suspect that other creatures of this type would have powers related to their given sense.

It is also worth noting that while the Loper on page 150 is depicted with a short tail, it is written up as having no tail.  This is significant for a Prax beast.  We know that the Nose-Loper tribe were one of the tribes of Prax, which tells us that the Lopers were creatures of Eiritha.  Beasts of Eiritha need to be killed with Peaceful Cut, with specific care taken as to the disposal of the tail so they can return to Eiritha and be reborn.  For the Lopers to have no tail explains why they are no longer domesticated in Prax and are believed to be extinct by Praxians.  Somehow, somewhere, Lopers lost their connection to Eiritha.

I suspect that the Lopers were a very early manifestation of Eiritha, when she was a young goddess exploring the world with these beasts acting as her senses.  Obviously Tada had Eiritha buried to protect her from Death, but perhaps Death could sense Eiritha more strongly in the Lopers and persecuted them to the point where many are now presumed extinct?  Obviously there isn't much to go on.  I hope the ideas presented are interesting.

[David Scott]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

We know that the Nose-Loper tribe were one of the tribes of Prax, which tells us that the Lopers were creatures of Eiritha.

You seem to have confused Nosehorn and Longnose with loper:

Quote

The other five are priestesses of the lost, hidden, or minor tribes: High Priestesses, respectively, of the Rhino, Plains Elk, Nosehorn, Longnose, and the Zebra.

Cults of Prax (Classic), Eiritha, page 28

Edited July 22, 2022 by David Scott
corrected source

[JRE]

In the Guide I found the only mention of Nose lopers is as an alternative name for cave trolls, I suppose for their prominent snout and walking gait.

The Loper people (Zaranistangi) and their Loper mounts come from Pamaltela in Godtime, as allies of the Artmali Empire, where they got the red sword of Tolat, and later saving Teshnos from the dragon Sshorg, and bringing the worship of Tolat there. In historical times they appear in Seshnelan history in the second age as enemies, and they lost the Red Sword there, though a God Learner used the lost Red Sword to become king of Teshnos. Apparently they still exist in Melib, though they travel all over Glorantha.

So I am afraid no connection with Eiritha that we know.

[Darius West]

4 hours ago, JRE said:

In the Guide I found the only mention of Nose lopers is as an alternative name for cave trolls, I suppose for their prominent snout and walking gait.

The Loper people (Zaranistangi) and their Loper mounts come from Pamaltela in Godtime, as allies of the Artmali Empire, where they got the red sword of Tolat, and later saving Teshnos from the dragon Sshorg, and bringing the worship of Tolat there. In historical times they appear in Seshnelan history in the second age as enemies, and they lost the Red Sword there, though a God Learner used the lost Red Sword to become king of Teshnos. Apparently they still exist in Melib, though they travel all over Glorantha.

So I am afraid no connection with Eiritha that we know.

There are references to Nose Lopers as the now extinct tribe that is the third part of the Two Legged Alliance, along with the Ostrich Riders and the Bolo Lizards.  David Scott's reference is on page 29 not page 28 of Cults of Prax, where the extinct tribes are also mentioned but not named.  As to the Zaranistangi, yes they are definitely Loper riders, but read closely on page 151 of the bestiary and it mentions that Praxian Hunters claim to sometimes encounter them in the Wastes despite claims they are extinct... like the extinct Nose Loper tribe.  I am not making this up, even if I can't presently lay my hands on where the original reference is.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Darius West

[David Scott]

30 minutes ago, Darius West said:

There are references to Nose Lopers as the now extinct tribe that is the third part of the Two Legged Alliance, along with the Ostrich Riders and the Bolo Lizards.

What's the reference please.

30 minutes ago, Darius West said:

David Scott's reference is on page 29 not page 28 of Cults of Prax, where the extinct tribes are also mentioned but not named.

Cults of Prax (Classic), Eiritha, page 28. - corrected.

Quote

There are ten priestesses which all report directly to the Most Respected Elder and are associated with the animals. Five of these are the Respected Elders of the nations. The other five are priestesses of the lost, hidden, or minor tribes: High Priestesses, respectively, of the Rhino, Plains Elk, Nosehorn, Longnose, and the Zebra. Some of these have Priestesses of their own among minor clans on the plains, some are remainders of extinct herds.

All ten are named:

• Five of these are the Respected Elders of the nations (I will assume Bison, High Llama, Impala, Morokanth, Sable)
• Some of these have Priestesses of their own among minor clans on the plains: Rhino, Zebra
• some are remainders of extinct herds: Plains Elk, Nosehorn, Longnose

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

There are references to Nose Lopers as the now extinct tribe that is the third part of the Two Legged Alliance, along with the Ostrich Riders and the Bolo Lizards.

I'm interested in this reference, I've never seen any mention of who the third party is. In my games, it's the morokanth...

40 minutes ago, Darius West said:

As to the Zaranistangi, yes they are definitely Loper riders, but read closely on page 151 of the bestiary and it mentions that Praxian Hunters claim to sometimes encounter them in the Wastes despite claims they are extinct...

I have no problem with this. The Zaranistangi were in Teshnos, which borders the Wastes. Given the Zaranistangi then left (and perished in 805), it's not inconceivable a small wild population of lopers was left. I'd certainly throw in loper encounters around Fever Trees (the border between the Wastes and Teshnos), and as far in as Feverlast. Loads of Teshnan merchants will say they've seen one or offer to catch one for you.

Drastic Prax had all sorts of ideas regarding the Loper people, it identified Mastakos/Uleria as their wander spirit Emilla as proof:

Quote

The Loper People have not been seen for hundreds of years, and most peoples think they are extinct. However, the Praxians claim they still exist, citing the presence of their Wanderer (a spirit named Emilla) as proof: if the Wanderer still exists. the tribe must also.

Emilla the Blue Goddess of Movement and Secrecy (GtG 429), would seem to be an aspect or child of Annilla. I don't put any credence in Drastic Prax, although if it works for you, use it.

[scott-martin]

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

Ear Lopers, Tongue Lopers, and Nose Lopers

Provenance and nomenclature aside, I really like the notion of alien survival covenants migrating into Eiritha Country with their exotic adaptations. Good for story and gives the loper people a little more ecological heft while testing the limits of the Prax system in play. What does it take to be children of Eiritha? How does adoption work? Does the process go both ways?

[Joerg]

The Two-Legged Alliance is mentioned in HQ2's Pavis: Gateway to Adventure.

The Ostrich clan was absent from the original Nomad Gods Independents, but appears in Borderlands (or at least in Borderlands and Beyond).

There was a one page article on the Ostrich riders by Mike Dawson in Avalon Hill's Heroes Magazine

[Darius West]

On 7/23/2022 at 1:02 AM, scott-martin said:

Provenance and nomenclature aside, I really like the notion of alien survival covenants migrating into Eiritha Country with their exotic adaptations. Good for story and gives the loper people a little more ecological heft while testing the limits of the Prax system in play. What does it take to be children of Eiritha? How does adoption work? Does the process go both ways?

The logical answer is that children of Eiritha are the beasts the goddess births.  Having their spirits in their tails is another big feature, and is central to the Peaceful Cut, as it involves the careful releasing of that spirit back to Eiritha from the tail.  In my Prax, it is possible to sacrifice horses and other animals on an altar to Eiritha using the Peaceful Cut to add their spirits to Eiritha's herd, but that is a separate issue.  As to humans being children of Eiritha, they either need to initiate, or be born of an Eiritha initiate mother.  The Ostrich and Bolo Lizard tribes are only Eiritha worshippers by adoption and refer to her as Aunt Eiritha, as birds and lizards cannot come from a mammalian momma.  Eiritha lays no eggs.

On 7/23/2022 at 12:41 AM, David Scott said:

I'm interested in this reference, I've never seen any mention of who the third party is. In my games, it's the morokanth...

Yes, for a long time I too thought it was the morokanths who were the "third leg" of the Two Legged Alliance, but then I stumbled across the Nose Lopers.  If only I could still find that reference in the sea of Glorantha lore...

Edited July 26, 2022 by Darius West

[Darius West]

Lopers from the bestiary seem to be based on chalicotherium if it were covered in extraneous eyes.

[scott-martin]

On 7/24/2022 at 1:16 AM, Darius West said:

careful releasing of that spirit back to Eiritha from the tail

I hate to ask how this happens with Herd Men unless through some inversion . . . ball of tails, ball of thumbs. Probably a lot of tail shame around the moro people in general.

[Darius West]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

I hate to ask how this happens with Herd Men unless through some inversion . . . ball of tails, ball of thumbs. Probably a lot of tail shame around the moro people in general.

Get the eye bleach ready.  If you read this you are going to need it.  You have been warned.  Now, click on the spoiler and read the answer if you feel you must.

Spoiler

Humans DO have tailbones, and peaceful cut will remove them.  Humans also have pubic hair.  Think about herd men in these terms next time you order a mock pork sandwich at Bob's Bison Burgers.

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Darius West

[David Scott]

56 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

I hate to ask how this happens with Herd Men unless through some inversion . . . ball of tails, ball of thumbs. Probably a lot of tail shame around the moro people in general.

IIRC it's the hands of herd man in place of the tail. Can't remember the source.

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, scott-martin said:

I hate to ask how this happens with Herd Men unless through some inversion . . . ball of tails, ball of thumbs. Probably a lot of tail shame around the moro people in general.

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

IIRC it's the hands of herd man in place of the tail. Can't remember the source.

Plunder, the Ball of Tails. Herd men spirits are included in this evil item using the left hand rather than any dorsal or frontal appendage.

[Darius West]

23 hours ago, David Scott said:

IIRC it's the hands of herd man in place of the tail. Can't remember the source.

Not in my Glorantha, but fair enough.

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

Given that Nose Lopers is another name for cave trolls, I speculate that a tribe of Praxian pygmies tamed some cave trolls during the great darkness and rode them into battle (like Master Blaster in Mad Max).  That explains how they could join the Two Legged Alliance.  They were easy to keep fed during the Darkness, but died off at the dawn because cave trolls can't tolerate sunlight.  

Or should this go in the "Your Dumbest Theories" section?

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, Revilo Divad Of Dyoll said:

Nose Lopers is another name for cave trolls

This one got me to jump because while looking at fragmentary accounts of the ancient empire of Elamle I misremembered there being a "nose" people hanging around the Maslo. So let's roll with it if we want the zaranistangi to bring up an entire survival covenant along with their eye lopers:

* "nose" lopers . . . a variety of mutant troll from the Mari highlands, maybe a "hot troll" or something entirely different (the text says tamali) and mercifully lost to history
* "ear" lopers . . . jel-mre literally means "big ears," Greg was in a linguistic phase at the time
* "leaper" lopers . . . at the time these were the pel-mre who might or might not have been recycled later in the lore
* "hular" . . . mysterious, "nearly mindless," practically legendary even at this stage

and maybe others escaping from the ultimate collapse of the blue empire. Some breeding stock might have survived in the northern continent as bizarre disorderly oddities of the waste. Others might still get pumped out of the Mother of Monsters, whose secret is that she's what happened to their "herd mother," ramping the Dumb Theory energy up another notch. Poor dumb Eiritha of the far southeast, gigantic, mindless and fecund. When survival covenants go bad.

See also: Gaggle (Chaos); Terror (Sky); Tyram

Edited August 4, 2022 by scott-martin
see also

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Others might still get pumped out of the Mother of Monsters, whose secret is that she's what happened to their "herd mother," ramping the Dumb Theory energy up another notch. Poor dumb Eiritha of the far southeast, gigantic, mindless and fecund. When survival covenants go bad.

Wow... that's rather mind-blowing, and if I ever revisit Maslo that'll definitely be one of those great background secrets.