Location of Marshedge Clan (Lismelder Tribe)

[Jex]

I'm hoping I'm not being a bother by asking so many questions here... I've received a lot of very helpful replies, and I appreciate all the responses I've been getting.  But I'm afraid I have another question...

So, I was working on an adventure for the Jonstown Compendium, which I was going to set in Ten Spear.  Only it turned out Ten Spear had already received a lot more development than I thought (albeit mostly in the noncanonical Tales from the Reaching Moon), so I decided to set my scenario in Marshedge instead.

One problem... I found two maps that show the location of the Marshedge Clan, and they completely contradict each other.

The map in Wyrm's Footnotes #15 (page 17) shows the Marshedge clan along the Sword River, northeast of the Lonendi and west of the Goodsword.  But this map of Central Sartar on the Well of Daliath shows the Marshedge clan west of the Lonendi (and shows the Lonendi and Goodsword directly abutting).  Either location would work fine for my adventure; I just wanted to know which if either should be considered canonical so I know which one to go with.  On the one hand, Wyrm's Footnotes #15 was a physical publication, while the Well of Daliath is just a webpage, so maybe Wyrm's Footnotes takes precedence.  On the other hand, Wyrm's Footnotes #15 was a physical publication from ten years ago, while the map on the Well of Daliath was just from last year, so maybe the Well of Daliath map takes precedence.

Does anyone have any thoughts, or is there a definitive answer?

[Squaredeal Sten]

My personal choice would be to take Jeff's map which is on line now, and which he revealed recently.  That seems to me to be the better indication of what may be in the eventual Sartar book, so your adventure is more likely to match canon in the future.  

Ten years ago... could be rationalized by noting that clan borders can have changed between the 1615 ST and 1625 ST base dates.

 

[Jex]

Borders could change in ten years, sure, but it seems like a very weird change for a clan to leapfrog over another clan's territory into an entirely different place.  You're probably right that the Well of Daliath map is the one more likely to match current canon.

I should have put this in my original post, but for comparison here are the relevant parts of the two maps; the first one is from Wyrm's Footnotes and the second one is from the Well of Daliath:

 

 

[Jex]

As an additional data point, the map in Sartar Kingdom of Heroes matches the one in Wyrm's Footprints #15, but since that's even older (2009), the Well of Daliath map still seems to be the most recent one...

[Rodney Dangerduck]

We think alike - I had a rough idea (currently abandoned) for adventures in an unknown, rundown village downstream of Swordvale, which I was calling "Lower Sword".

Good luck with your JC adventures!

[David Scott]

11 hours ago, Jex said:

Does anyone have any thoughts, or is there a definitive answer?

The WF map although excellent is out of date and dates back to the original Lismelder campaign of the 90s.

The new clans map is the best to use. As it forms the basis of a new map. Overlay the tribe map with the rough clan map and they fit well:

Note the Marshedge dinosaur!

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/clan-map-of-central-sartar/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-tribes-of-sartar-1625-1626/

[soltakss]

11 hours ago, Jex said:

I'm hoping I'm not being a bother by asking so many questions here... I've received a lot of very helpful replies, and I appreciate all the responses I've been getting. 

People on the forums love answering questions, so ask as many questions as you want.

11 hours ago, Jex said:

One problem... I found two maps that show the location of the Marshedge Clan, and they completely contradict each other.

Where two maps clash, I think of several reasons:

• Mapmakers did not have all the facts, so made guesses
• Maps are not always accurate
• Clans move around a bit, due to politics and clan skirmishes
• Labels on maps don't reflect reality
• People's ideas change 

11 hours ago, Jex said:

I should have put this in my original post, but for comparison here are the relevant parts of the two maps; the first one is from Wyrm's Footnotes and the second one is from the Well of Daliath:

In this case, it looks as though the labels for the Poss and Lolendi on the WF map don't really reflect the clans' positions, which is why borders in maps can be useful.

In the Well of Daliath map, it looks as though the clans are parallel coming off the Starfire Ridges, which pushes the Goodsword Clan more towards the marsh, alongside the Colymar. That would naturally push the Marshedge Clan towards the edge of the marsh and not as far inland. Moving the Lolendi towards the marsh means they either butt up against the Marshedge Clan or they themselves butt up against the march, either splitting the Marshedge Clan in two or moving it to the west.

Personally, I'd not give the Lolendi a border with the marsh and, instead, have the Marshedge Clan stretching to the Goodsword Clan. That way, there is conflict between the Lolendi and Marshedge clans over access to the marsh.

 

[Jex]

12 hours ago, soltakss said:

Personally, I'd not give the Lolendi a border with the marsh and, instead, have the Marshedge Clan stretching to the Goodsword Clan. That way, there is conflict between the Lolendi and Marshedge clans over access to the marsh.

Hmm... an interesting thought, but I see two problems with that.

For one, the whole reason I decided against using the village of Ten Spear in the Lonendi clan territory was to avoid conflicts with what was written about Ten Spear and the Lonendi in Tales of the Reaching Moon #18 and #19.  The fact that the Lonendi clan did have a border with the marsh was pretty important to the adventure in Tales of the Reaching Moon #19.  If I'm going to contradict that, I might as well just ignore Tales of the Reaching Moon altogether and use Ten Spear anyway.

For another, this isn't just any old marsh; this is the Upland Marsh, from which Delecti the Necromancer sends out undead horrors to ravage the surroundings.  Why would anyone want access to it?  I'd think the Lonendi clan would be thrilled if the Marshedge clan was there to act as a buffer between them and Delecti.

[Darius West]

On 11/20/2022 at 9:34 AM, Jex said:

Borders could change in ten years, sure, but it seems like a very weird change for a clan to leapfrog over another clan's territory into an entirely different place.  You're probably right that the Well of Daliath map is the one more likely to match current canon.

I should have put this in my original post, but for comparison here are the relevant parts of the two maps; the first one is from Wyrm's Footnotes and the second one is from the Well of Daliath:

 

 

That's hilarious!  Keep it!  The Marshedge Clan has lost the village that is named after them, and so have the Poss!  I put it down to Lunar restructuring post Starbrow's Uprising.

[Erol of Backford]

Better non-canon than never?

Mr. Jerwin posted these maps in another thread (see links below).

Detailed Maps of Sartar

There are detailed non canon maps of the Culbrea out there too: http://glorantha.temppeli.org/resources/maps/culbrea_tribe_1620_mod.jpg

Check out the non-canon Lismelder maps on this page if you want a lot of detail... https://glorantha.fandom.com/wiki/Lismelder_Tribe