Preventing Min-Max Imbalance

[Stan Shinn]

In HeroQuest and QuestWorlds the cost to improve an ability, keyword, or breakout doesn't increase as the skill goes up. My concern is that I have players who I know will try to min-max their abilities, putting all their points into fighting skill where other players may more equally distribute how they level up their skills.

It seems to me that after a few games I'm going to have some players with a 5M3 level skill rolling dice in a group contest where all the other players have at most a 5M1 skill (for example).

I'm wondering how best to prevent this, since having one player always outshining others due to min-maxed skills is a drag.

I'm considering this house rule: the XP cost to level up an ability by +1 adds the current 'M' value to the cost.

So using the HeroQuest 1 XP = +1 to an ability model, increasing a keyword breakout by 1 level up to a rating of 20 costs 1 XP, increasing the breakout by one point when the skill is between 1M to 20M costs 2 XP for each 1 point level-up, and from 1M2 to 20M2 costs 3 XP per 1 point level up, etc. 

Seems like some system like this could slow down the advancement at higher levels and keep characters from having as much a disparity in skill levels.

Thoughts on all this?

 

[Eff]

24 minutes ago, Stan Shinn said:

In HeroQuest and QuestWorlds the cost to improve an ability, keyword, or breakout doesn't increase as the skill goes up. My concern is that I have players who I know will try to min-max their abilities, putting all their points into fighting skill where other players may more equally distribute how they level up their skills.

It seems to me that after a few games I'm going to have some players with a 5M3 level skill rolling dice in a group contest where all the other players have at most a 5M1 skill (for example).

I'm wondering how best to prevent this, since having one player always outshining others due to min-maxed skills is a drag.

I'm considering this house rule: the XP cost to level up an ability by +1 adds the current 'M' value to the cost.

So using the HeroQuest 1 XP = +1 to an ability model, increasing a keyword breakout by 1 level up to a rating of 20 costs 1 XP, increasing the breakout by one point when the skill is between 1M to 20M costs 2 XP for each 1 point level-up, and from 1M2 to 20M2 costs 3 XP per 1 point level up, etc. 

Seems like some system like this could slow down the advancement at higher levels and keep characters from having as much a disparity in skill levels.

Thoughts on all this?

 

I suspect this is why the Questworlds SRD uses a fixed scheme of advances for character improvement. But by default, player characters will only gain XP from being defeated in a contest or from having their flaw(s) used by the GM in a contest. Someone who focuses on one or two abilities at very high levels and uses them for everything is simply going to plateau unless one or more of their flaws is frequently invoked, and their flaws scale with their highest and second-highest abilities. So to put it another way, this is a problem that fixes itself- player characters plateau in development unless they start using riskier tactics or the rest of the players reach a point where the base resistance gets high enough to make that 5M3 ability high but not exceptional. 

And of course, the other side of all of this is that story obstacles and story questions can be ones that those 5M3 abilities can't credibly overcome or answer, if there's an actual problem with the the player's use of abilities in play beyond them having a high ability. 

(But I would also perhaps talk with the player about why they're pouring all their points into a single ability and what they want out of it, because it's entirely possible they just want to be "the best" in a narrow specialty, etc.)

[Stan Shinn]

Ah, that's a good point about only getting XP from failures! Yes, that might just alleviate the concern I listed.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I don't the SRD rules specify where you spend your XP for a failed contest -- I think the XP you earn when failing can then be applied to level up any ability or breakout, not just the ability you failed at, that sound right?

 

[soltakss]

On 11/22/2022 at 7:04 PM, Stan Shinn said:

In HeroQuest and QuestWorlds the cost to improve an ability, keyword, or breakout doesn't increase as the skill goes up. My concern is that I have players who I know will try to min-max their abilities, putting all their points into fighting skill where other players may more equally distribute how they level up their skills.

To be honest, that shouldn't be much of an issue in QuestWorlds. 

After all, having a fairly high ability doesn't mean much.

[g33k]

After playing quite a few different systems, and seeing quite a few GM's trying to structure "munchkin-prevention" rules into the XP/advancement mechanisms of various rulesets, I was a bit taken-aback (but on reflection, rather came to appreciate) the Champions/HERO method -- just putting a straight-up cap on the highest numbers allowed on a character-sheet.

Maybe allow those numbers to creep up every other time -- or every third time, or whatever -- the players get to advance their characters.

Edited December 21, 2022 by g33k

[AlHazred]

In Champions, usually we waited until the characters or campaign plot had advanced enough, and then upgraded the whole thing to a higher power level, allowing players to go higher in the point totals. It worked well; one time I did it, there was a secret alien invasion, so a lot of characters were more potent than the PCs expected, and it allowed me to gradually amp things up without being instantly overwhelming.

[Ian Cooper]

>Maybe allow those numbers to creep up every other time -- or every third time, or whatever -- the players get to advance their characters.

Advancement is optional. So you could decide that it doesn't seem credible that certain abilities can rise above a certain level in your genre pack, because there are no "incredible powers" to explain it. Feel free to do that. Be aware though that some of a superior skill is how you use it to resolve problems over sheer raw talent.

[Akhôrahil]

The game breaks pretty hard if people min-max advancement. Given the kind of game it is, the best way to handle this is probably asking the players "so please don't do that".

OP solution is fair if you still want to restrain things, but there remains room for abuses of the system even after this.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Akhôrahil