Worst fantasy books ever written ?

[p_clapham]

Lord Dunsany is a early and pretty good weird fantasy Author. His short stories run the gambit from Fantasy, Horror and Hashish. He wrote stories about elven princesess many years before Tolkien.

As far as good ole H.P.L. I hear where you are coming from. His writing style and stories are definatly not for everyone. I'm a pretty big fan of Lovecraft and the writers he befriended in the jaz age. Right now I'm on a Robert E. Howard binge, very different from H.P.L. I feel Howard's stories have less of the issues you mentioned.

AS far as Fantasy I've read but disliked.... well I've got a love/hate relationship with Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. I loved the initial first four or five books. After a while I got pretty pissed that he was ignoring the main characters and to a degree the main plot.

[Aycorn]

AS far as Fantasy I've read but disliked.... well I've got a love/hate relationship with Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. I loved the initial first four or five books. After a while I got pretty pissed that he was ignoring the main characters and to a degree the main plot.

Well, I guess Jordan got HIS didn't he?

I read the first of these, and found it enjoyable even though it is schematically painfully similar to "Fellowship of the Ring."

[p_clapham]

He did write some decent Conan stories. I was pissed about the Wheel of Time, but not that pissed. I simply did the sensible thing and stopped buying his books. Too bad he was a good author, the story just seemed to move out of his control.

[drohem]

Too much braid pulling and hair tugging

[Simlasa]

The idea of seeing something that breaks your mind because it is so different was fine in the 1920s when new theories such as Relativity, Quantum Theory and the Expansion of the Universe were changing how people thought about the world and shattered what people thought about how things worked. But, nowadays with films and TV Shows, we see aliens left, right and centre, we have graphic horror films that leave nothing to the imagination and we have been desensitised to a lot of things. So, seeing some half-fish creature isn't going to break my mind and send me to the loony bin.

I've seen lots of people say this and I still think it's a load of crap.

Soldiers come home all the time mentally unhinged because of what they've experienced at war. They see things that are completely outside of normal experience and I really doubt watching several hours of war movies before setting out would have spared them.

Seeing a rubber/cgi monster on some SciFi Channel crapfest is NOT going to put your mind at ease when you come across a deep one rooting through your garbage at 3am. Maybe you won't go insane... but it will sure as hell shake you up.

Lovecraft's style isn't to everyone's taste, no... but then neither is Henry James or Stephen King or JK Rowling or James Joyce. I was talking to a high school kid the other day who was complaining how 'To Kill A Mockingbird' is complete garbage...

So by those loose guidelines it's ALL bad in somebody's opinion.

Whatever, there's a reason Lovecraft keeps getting republished... and people keep imitating him.

I kinda doubt there's gonna be a lot of JK Rowling stuff on the shelves 80 years from now.

[Atgxtg]

I've seen lots of people say this and I still think it's a load of crap.

Soldiers come home all the time mentally unhinged because of what they've experienced at war. They see things that are completely outside of normal experience and I really doubt watching several hours of war movies before setting out would have spared them.

I think there is a big difference between seeing your buddies riped in two by machinegune fire and seeing froggy going through your garbage. Part of the problem with Lovecraft was that he had a hard time living in the modern world of the 1920s and things that bothered him, naturally bother his characters. To Lovecraft, the architecture of, oh, New York City, is sanity threatneing, "The vast spires rose to such unnatural heights that a mere glimpse sent my head realling from Vertigo." Heck, Lovecraft might flip out if he came home and found a soldier going through his garbage. He was a unstable, xenophobic recluse.

Yeah, seeing a Deep One might shake someone up, but it is hardly the reality warping experience that it is to Lovecraft.

Now seeing a Deep One tossing a half eaten body into the garbage is a bit more shocking. Yet itnecessary a prelude for a trip to the funny farm. Not unless no one else sees the Deep One.

I'm a bit on thee squeemish side, and yet managed to wrok in a hospital inclduing reguarly working in the trauma ceter, OR, and makinking the occasion trips to the Morgue.

Yes, you do get accustomed to it. And yes while some soldiers do come home mentially unhinged, so do some teachers, pilicemen and truck drivers. The vast majority however, aren't in need of intensie pyschotherapy.

I kinda doubt there's gonna be a lot of JK Rowling stuff on the shelves 80 years from now.

I kinda doubt there would be much Locvecraft stuff on the shelves now without CoC. Or that a lot of authors in the horror field considered him a major influence.

As for worst fantasy books written. Well it is mostly subjective. We might be able to be objective on technical points, but as far as style, and story themes go, it is all subjective.

[Simlasa]

I think there is a big difference between seeing your buddies riped in two by machinegune fire and seeing froggy going through your garbage.

... and I wasn't really making the two out to be the same...

Just saying, watching war movies doesn't prepare you for war. Watching horror movie doesn't prepare you for monsters.

I worked in a forensics lab with all sorts of body parts and organs... that doesn't insure that I won't wig out if I come home to find my girlfriend's guts scattered on the kitchen floor. The element of surprise and danger plays a big part in how people react.

I agree that MOST people aren't necessarily going to come unhinged over such things... but everyone has a breaking point.

I kinda doubt there would be much Locvecraft stuff on the shelves now without CoC. Or that a lot of authors in the horror field considered him a major influence.

Well, Stephen King and Ramsey Campbell mention him as an influence... definitely Thomas Ligotti... Clive Barker has several stories that have his airs about them... that's a pretty good starting line-up...

I really don't think COC has all that much to do with people knowing about Lovecraft and seeking out his books.

If I ask a random group of folks... lots more of them are going to have heard of Lovecraft than have heard of COC or Chaosium.

Most of the really bad fantasy I've read I can't name... cause I didn't finish it or keep the book.

A lot of it was attempting to out-Tolkien Tolkien... and instead read like someones record of their RPG sessions.

[p_clapham]

If Chaosium never came up with Call of Cthulhu the rpg, I would have. Back in the early 90's I discovered Lovecraft and Roleplaying. I had a good adaptation of the Masque of the Red Death rules when a friend pointed out the pre-existing RPG.

I kinda doubt there would be much Locvecraft stuff on the shelves now without CoC. Or that a lot of authors in the horror field considered him a major influence.

I don't deny the rpg has greatly helped spread his and his friends work. One of the things I love about the gentleman from Providence is the circle of friends and pen-pals he had. Through Lovecraft's work I've found a world of other authors. Robert E Howard and Clark Ashton Smith being my two favorite. Smith's writing btw can make Lovecraft's writing seem positively simple.

[Simlasa]

There was a 'Masque Of The Red Death' RPG?

What, like a game where you were at a party waiting for the plague to strike?

[p_clapham]

Well it was pretty much Ravenloft during the 1890's. There was some big stink in this world's ancient Egypt that unleashed a evil force called the Red Death. It was an interesting game, the first "modern" D&D game I think. A fair amount of it was unfortunatly the same Ravenloft Monster Mash pastiche. Still the rules were decent enough for doing Victorian Horror Roleplaying back then.

There was a 'Masque Of The Red Death' RPG?

What, like a game where you were at a party waiting for the plague to strike?

I think one of the adventures in the main box set involved that particular party.

[soltakss]

I've seen lots of people say this and I still think it's a load of crap.

Soldiers come home all the time mentally unhinged because of what they've experienced at war. They see things that are completely outside of normal experience and I really doubt watching several hours of war movies before setting out would have spared them.

Seeing a rubber/cgi monster on some SciFi Channel crapfest is NOT going to put your mind at ease when you come across a deep one rooting through your garbage at 3am. Maybe you won't go insane... but it will sure as hell shake you up.

Hang on a minute.

You specifically asked me to justify my stated opinion, which I did.

You haven't asked anyone else to justify their opinion.

I smell a little bit of bias here.

Lovecraft's style isn't to everyone's taste, no... but then neither is Henry James or Stephen King or JK Rowling or James Joyce. I was talking to a high school kid the other day who was complaining how 'To Kill A Mockingbird' is complete garbage...

Style and taste are both highly subjective.

So by those loose guidelines it's ALL bad in somebody's opinion.

That's the most sensible comment in this entire thread.

[Simlasa]

I smell a little bit of bias here.

Yeah, I've definitely got bias... but that's the nature of the thread... so.

The only reason I jumped on that 'these things won't drive people insane' bit was because I've seen lots of people say that with regards to Lovecraft's writing and it kind of bugs me... I think a lot of it comes out of modern desires to see everything in a bright light and covered in gore (not saying that's your take, necessarily, it just seems to coincide with complaints I see about Lovecraft... 'well, Jack Ketchum is a REAL horror writer!'.

The same sorts of complaints that claim the Blair Witch Project isn't scary because they never show anything.

Besides, seems to me very few of Lovecraft's characters were driven insane anyway.

[seneschal]

Besides, seems to me very few of his Lovecraft's characters were driven insane anyway.

Oh, they were. They just stopped narrating when they went nuts.

Personally, I think Lovecraft does a wonderful job of creating suspense and has a good grasp of regional dialect. His monsters were unique. On the other hand, he doesn't even try to write dialogue. His atmospheric descriptions of scenery sometimes drag on and on. And he doesn't so much present a plot as pile bit upon disturbing bit. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

Although Lovecraft's writings and Chaosium's game can each stand on their own tentacles, they have a symbiotic relationship. People stumbling upon the one tend to find out about and become interested in the other. I knew about the game long before I got my hands on Lovecraft's stories, but it sparked my curiosity. At this point, I've read lots of stories but only played the game once.

[fmitchell]

The same sorts of complaints that claim the Blair Witch Project isn't scary because they never show anything.

Maybe not the best example. The Blair Witch Project wasn't scary to me because the plot was nonexistent and the sound wasn't clear. (Although I did see it in a theater full of chattering teenagers.) The only reason it was scary to initial audiences was that they thought it was an actual documentary until the actors came forward after the premiere.

[drohem]

I couldn't stand BWP. I hate the shakey cam trick; especially for the full feature. It can be a useful tool when used sparingly and for short bursts, but for the movie it gave me a headache.

[Atgxtg]

Besides, seems to me very few of his Lovecraft's characters were driven insane anyway.

That was something my first CoC GM mentioned. He said that while characters did get shocked and shaken up, none of the heroes in a Lovecraft story everwent permanently insane.

Likewise there is a bit of a discrepancy between the writings and the RPG. In the books, the character often don;t know whats going on and yet things (the forces of nature) tend to work out and save humanity, the world etc. In the game it is more like if the PCs don't save the world its doomed.

[Simlasa]

Maybe not the best example. The Blair Witch Project wasn't scary to me because the plot was nonexistent and the sound wasn't clear. (Although I did see it in a theater full of chattering teenagers.) The only reason it was scary to initial audiences was that they thought it was an actual documentary until the actors came forward after the premiere.

Seems like it was real hit or miss with people... the guys I saw it with all knew it wasn't a 'real' documentary but we were all 'edge of our seats' anyway... I've only met a few gullible people who thought it was a 'true' story.

I'm pretty sure that it was, at least partially, inspired by Karl Edward Wagner's short story 'Sticks'.

(interestingly, the new giant monster movie Cloverfield is very much in the same style as Blair Witch... fake 'documentary' footage, shaky cam, etc... and people seem hit or miss on that one too).

Anyway... like I said, hit or miss... like a Lovecraft seems to be for a lot of people.

My high school American Lit teacher introduced me to Lovecraft's stuff... and I wrote papers on him in undergrad... it wasn't until later that I found the game.

[Simlasa]

That was something my first CoC GM mentioned. He said that while characters did get shocked and shaken up, none of the heroes in a Lovecraft story everwent permanently insane.

The only one I can recall going obviously and permanently bonkers was the narrator from 'The Rats In The Walls'... the rest screamed and ran away... or got eaten.

[drohem]

That's exactly why I'm not going to see Cloverfield- the shakey cam action. Also, there will probably only be a couple of shots or scene with the actual monster. Supposedly, the monster is from the Cthulhu Mythos, but I'm sure they'll cheese that out, screw it up, or not play up that angle.

Maybe I'll put it on my Netflix list when available.

[Simlasa]

My friend went to a sneak preview of Cloverfield this week.

He enjoyed it a lot, said it's very brutal and realistic... not at all like a Godzilla movie (he said it is totally from the perspective of those anonymous people you see fleeing in those Toho movies...).

The monster may or may not be Lovecraftian... but it's NOT Cthulhu... there's no supernatural element except that the thing is impossibly huge.

He also said not to sit too close to the screen or you'll throw up... cause of the camera movement.

[drohem]

My friend went to a sneak preview of Cloverfield this week.

He enjoyed it a lot, said it's very brutal and realistic... not at all like a Godzilla movie (he said it is totally from the perspective of those anonymous people you see fleeing in those Toho movies...).

The monster may or may not be Lovecraftian... but it's NOT Cthulhu... there's no supernatural element except that the thing is impossibly huge.

He also said not to sit too close to the screen or you'll throw up... cause of the camera movement.

Yup, that's what I figured. They won't get my $15 in the theater. If anything, Netflix will get a cut if I put on my list.

[Atgxtg]

The only one I can recall going obviously and permanently bonkers was the narrator from 'The Rats In The Walls'... the rest screamed and ran away... or got eaten.

Probably more likely. I figure the going bonkers is more for those who can't run away and don't get eaten. LIke when the Deep Ones get full and throw someone back onto land so they can catch 'em later when the've gotten bigger.

[soltakss]

The same sorts of complaints that claim the Blair Witch Project isn't scary because they never show anything.

Well, it wasn't

[Agentorange]

Everything H P Lovecraft ever wrote.......

scene 1

"So how did you come by this place?"

"My uncle left it me, he was a bit of a mysterious character really"

scene 2

" I wonder what these strange looking books are ? "

" Can you hear some sort of eldritch chanting ? "

scene 3

" Watch out for those batrachian squamous tentacles ! "

" ARGHH ! "

And I quite like HPL

[Simlasa]

Everything H P Lovecraft ever wrote.......

Well... it certainly seems that way... until you actually read some of his stuff and notice that very few, if any, of his stories fit that mold.

The thing with the Mythos stories is, that once you've read a few... you start to anticipate the Mythos in all his stories... kind of a variation on 'the butler did it' syndrome in English mysteries... though how many actually feature muderous butlers (I suspect not many... but I wouldn't know).

Thats why I always thought it was important, in COC games, to toss in plenty of sessions where the Mythos played no part at all... and leave plenty of evil to good old human nature.