Turn Undead

[kara]

I am baffled by the Turn Undead spell. Could someone explain with an example or two how it works please?

In particular I am trying to see how it will work on the undead chariot in The Rattling Wind scenario (Pegasus Plateau) but I do not understand it even for more normal undead.

[Squaredeal Sten]

Red Book of magic p.101 -  I see your problem!  

Caster's POW vs. each undead target's Magic Points, on the resistance table.  If you succeed, the undead is affected, and the problem now arises: the undead results table is written in terms of single-actor success, from fumble to critical, which the resistance table does not have.  It doesn't make sense to use the result level from your casting of the spell, although it would give fumble/failure/success.special. critical results - because the Fumble and Failure results should never come up if you fail to cast the spell.

But the book says 'if successful roll on' the table- so for each affected undead being,  I would use a new roll on the Death rune affinity %, and use that to read the table.

Example:

You face two undead, who we will call A and B.   You cast 2 Rune points of Turn Undead.

Let's say your character has Death 70%.  You roll a 67% and make it, the spell affects your undead targets.

Now for each undead, you roll your character's POW vs. its MPs.  Say 15 POW vs.  16 MPs- so a 45% chance of success.  You roll a 40 and a 25 and win twice, your undead targets are both affected.

Now roll for the effect vs. your character's  67% Death rune. 

For  undead "A" you roll a 70, failure.  Reading the table, that undead is merely befuddled, not "turned".  (If it has no INT then just as for Befuddle, you can't befuddle something with no INT, this becomes a bad result for you.)

For undead "B", you roll a 06, special:  Reading the table this undead is paralyzed and immobile for a number of melee rounds depending on its INT, if any. 

You quietly leave before the two undead become functional again.

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
typing / proofing.

[g33k]

Hmmm.
It's possible this thread (this Q) needs attention from @Scotty & maybe to be raised in the official Q thread, to be Rune Fixed...?

 

[Dirk Le Daring]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Red Book of magic p.101 -  I see your problem!  

Caster's POW vs. each undead target's Magic Points, on the resistance table.  If you succeed, the undead is affected, and the problem now arises: the undead results table is written in terms of single-actor success, from fumble to critical, which the resistance table does not have.  It doesn't make sense to use the result level from your casting of the spell, although it would give fumble/failure/success.special. critical results - because the Fumble and Failure results should never come up if you fail to cast the spell.

But the book says 'if successful roll on' the table- so for each affected undead being,  I would use a new roll on the Death rune affinity %, and use that to read the table.

Example:

You face two undead, who we will call A and B.   You cast 2 Rune points of Turn Undead.

Let's say your character has Death 70%.  You roll a 67% and make it, the spell affects your undead targets.

Now for each undead, you roll your character's POW vs. its MPs.  Say 15 POW vs.  16 MPs- so a 45% chance of success.  You roll a 40 and a 25 and win twice, your undead targets are both affected.

Now roll for the effect vs. your character's  67% Death rune. 

For  undead "A" you roll a 70, failure.  Reading the table, that undead is merely befuddled, not "turned".  (If it has no INT then just as for Befuddle, you can't befuddle something with no INT, this becomes a bad result for you.)

For undead "B", you roll a 06, special:  Reading the table this undead is paralyzed and immobile for a number of melee rounds depending on its INT, if any. 

You quietly leave before the two undead become functional again.

 

 

 

Page 9, last paragraph, first sentence......

" The chariot and skeletons are one being, one spirit, bound
by Rune magic and bronze chains."

By the spell description Turn Undead will work, given success on casting.

As for Pow or MP vs Pow , yeah, dunno.... It has no Pow or Cha.

 

[kara]

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Red Book of magic p.101 -  I see your problem!  

Caster's POW vs. each undead target's Magic Points, on the resistance table.  If you succeed, the undead is affected, and the problem now arises: the undead results table is written in terms of single-actor success, from fumble to critical, which the resistance table does not have.  It doesn't make sense to use the result level from your casting of the spell, although it would give fumble/failure/success.special. critical results - because the Fumble and Failure results should never come up if you fail to cast the spell.

But the book says 'if successful roll on' the table- so for each affected undead being,  I would use a new roll on the Death rune affinity %, and use that to read the table.

 

Thank you.

In the absense of any official clarification, that's what I'll run with for now.

I'll likely be running The Rattling Wind shortly. Of course the chance of the PC's 15 Pow overcoming the 27 MP is small but I wanted to be prepared as this is the first Undead he'll be meeting ingame.

[kara]

4 hours ago, g33k said:

Hmmm.
It's possible this thread (this Q) needs attention from @Scotty & maybe to be raised in the official Q thread, to be Rune Fixed...?

 

Yes, I did look there first and found nothing.

[Kloster]

6 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

from fumble to critical, which the resistance table does not have.

You can have success levels on the resistance table.

[Steve]

As Kloster said, p.145 of the core rulebook: "As with other rolls, resistance rolls may result in critical successes, special successes, and fumbles".

 

[Scotty]

10 hours ago, kara said:

I am baffled by the Turn Undead spell. Could someone explain with an example or two how it works please?

In particular I am trying to see how it will work on the undead chariot in The Rattling Wind scenario (Pegasus Plateau) but I do not understand it even for more normal undead.

Firstly, The bone chariot is an undead thing of wood and bronze and bones, infused by the Rune Lord’s spirit and stirred by the power of the Red Moon (page 57). So it is a weird construct that defies the rules, unlike normal undead, it has POW - so use that.

Secondly, make sure you've read the correction in the Q&A:

107. Turn Undead

Change

Correction

The caster must overcome each target’s magic points (undead do not have POW) with their own POW; roll separately for each target, and consult the Turn Undead Results table:

Using the Humakti of one of my player's: Bermanar, POW 17.

1. Bermanar casts Turn Undead on SR1..., and succeeds in casting the spell (ticks Death Rune).
2. The chariot has POW 18, Bermanar, POW 17 (((17-18) x 5%) = -5% + 50% = 45% my players usually do this bit in their head, quicker than the table lookup)
3. Rolls against 45% chance, and rolls 10%, a success, and looks up on the Turn Undead Results table: The undead turns and flees.
4. So the chariot turns and flees.

[kara]

17 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Firstly, The bone chariot is an undead thing of wood and bronze and bones, infused by the Rune Lord’s spirit and stirred by the power of the Red Moon (page 57). So it is a weird construct that defies the rules, unlike normal undead, it has POW - so use that.

That's interesting. My version of the scenario has the Chariot with no Power.

[Scotty]

3 minutes ago, kara said:

That's interesting. My version of the scenario has the Chariot with no Power.

Top left, page 59.

[kara]

41 minutes ago, Steve said:

As Kloster said, p.145 of the core rulebook: "As with other rolls, resistance rolls may result in critical successes, special successes, and fumbles".

 

So, in that case, even on a failure the Humakti achieves a success of sorts? Ie. the undead is Befuddled (unless having no Int).

[kara]

1 minute ago, Scotty said:

Top left, page 59.

Yes, it's different in my version: Pow-

Pow 18 will certainly be far easier than MP 27 so my player will thank you.

[Scotty]

1 minute ago, kara said:

So, in that case, even on a failure the Humakti achieves a success of sorts? Ie. the undead is Befuddled (unless having no Int).

Yes. So even in the case of the chariot it's possible.

[kara]

1 minute ago, Scotty said:

Yes. So even in the case of the chariot it's possible.

Thank you for the clarification.

[Scotty]

7 minutes ago, kara said:

Yes, it's different in my version: Pow-

Pow 18 will certainly be far easier than MP 27 so my player will thank you.

It's correct in the first printing and current PDF. Do you have the most up to date copy of the PDF? If not download it again from the account you received it from (Chaosium.com, Bits and Mortar or Drivethru).

[kara]

It's on page 10 of The Rattling Wind, released 2019.

Now I see that it is indeed different on p.59 of the full Pegasus Plateau, released 2020. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, Steve said:

As Kloster said, p.145 of the core rulebook: "As with other rolls, resistance rolls may result in critical successes, special successes, and fumbles".

 

That's very Interesting, something I had never noticed in RQiG.  There is great value in these discussions of examples.