Who counts as an Ancestor?

[Dragon]

17 hours ago, metcalph said:

Can, not will.  

Got you. You stated your world's reasoning that 100% of sorcerers could not be summoned. I pointed out the 100% prohibition contradicted Well of Daliath. Then you agreed that it was somewhat possible by stating 'can, not will'. 

Then you state a new reason why your Glorantha varies:

17 hours ago, metcalph said:

IMO the Shaman blame Zzabur for not being able to summon Zzaburi Ancestors.  Nothing to do with Malkion at all

Got it. In your Glorantha, you will not allow shaman to summon sorcerers using Summon Specific Ancestor, ever. You have defended your particular Glorantha quite well. I was merely pointing out to others who read this thread that there are reasonably canon reasons that it is possible. In my Glorantha, some shamans may well be able to summon one, but not without using Summon Specific Ancestor combined with a name.

[dumuzid]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'd just like to point out that the Uz allow for learning (using, casting) any form of magic, and I can therefore certainly see a troll with Rune Magic from KL or DF or similar, with obviously Spirit magic spells - and sorcery! And that also means a priestess who then goes on to talk to their version of the First Shaman, and then face their version of the Bad Man....

In many places once ruled by the First Council, but especially in Esrolia, some humans even have trollish ancestry and could claim those frightful KL shaman-priestess-sorceresses as their ancestresses!

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, Dragon said:

Got you. You stated your world's reasoning that 100% of sorcerers could not be summoned. I pointed out the 100% prohibition contradicted Well of Daliath. Then you agreed that it was somewhat possible by stating 'can, not will'. 

Seriously?  I was offering my opinion (the posts starts "I think...") and did not say 100%.  This isn't the place for hostile nitpicks as the following post makes clear:

 

6 hours ago, Dragon said:

Then you state a new reason why your Glorantha varies:

Err.  I offered an in-gloranthan reason as to how the Malkioni might explain this difference.  That's allowed to be different from the real truth and not a sign of inconsistency,.

6 hours ago, Dragon said:

Got it. In your Glorantha, you will not allow shaman to summon sorcerers using Summon Specific Ancestor, ever. You have defended your particular Glorantha quite well. I was merely pointing out to others who read this thread that there are reasonably canon reasons that it is possible.

You are quite free to state your own opinion without using the platform of adverse commentary of another person's post.

 

[Dragon]

2 hours ago, dumuzid said:

In many places once ruled by the First Council, but especially in Esrolia, some humans even have trollish ancestry and could claim those frightful KL shaman-priestess-sorceresses as their ancestresses!

One of the interesting points that I recall from Trollpak was that many Uzuz had a much more limited set of 'ancestors' and that meant that when they summoned a random ancestor, they were likely to get extremely powerful ones. Because they were over 1600 years old and only a few generations from KL, ZZ, XU, and others. Note: I did not check my old physical books to find that reference. I can if someone requires.

Which, if it is still canon, would imply that  'ancestors' are really those from whom the shaman was descended and not the entire set of Uz ghosts.

Which would mean a certain DF shaman in a published Chaosium scenario who summons someone much younger than he, and recently dead, did not use Summon Specific Ancestor, but instead e.g. a spirit magic version of Summon Ghost. My group is going through that adventure right now.

[Dragon]

11 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Seriously?  I was offering my opinion (the posts starts "I think...") and did not say 100%.  This isn't the place for hostile nitpicks as the following post makes clear:

I apologize if you thought I was nitpicking your Glorantha. I stated multiple times that your Glorantha may vary (in various forms).

[Ironwall]

The way I've dealt with this is a direct ancestor can always be summoned. However someone can count as an ancestor and be summoned if they are A: share ancestry with one of your direct ancestors ie: grand uncle Bobatar or 23 times great aunt Suesena however they must also be B: had been a member of the same clan. 

Let me just give a little edit to explain my reasoning. In my view ancestors can be an individual ancestor or a communal "our ancestors" if a clan worships a hero as an ancestor than the hero becomes the spiritual ancestor of everyone in said clan regardless of whose actually directly descended from said hero.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Ironwall

[hasevir]

On 4/11/2023 at 11:27 AM, David Scott said:

Remember also that after about 12 generations you are related to most people in your area (I'm related to my partner as a 13th cousin)

In glorantha trees, bushes, sartari, broos and gods and for that matter rats and lions are all about 80th cousins via grandfather mortal.

[Ironwall]

6 hours ago, hasevir said:

grandfather mortal.

That guy really got around makes you wonder what was going on in his head.

[Joerg]

16 minutes ago, Ironwall said:

That guy really got around makes you wonder what was going on in his head.

According to the  Kralori story of WIld Man, rather little blood, as that needed to be collected in his nethers.