Who counts as an Ancestor?

[Akhôrahil]

So when it comes to Ancestor worship, who exactly counts? Does it have to be someone you're a direct descendant of (this would be the most immediate interpretation)? Or is it wider, such as (for instance) having access to "in-law" Ancestors of your wife or other family members? Do you have access to "cultural" Ancestors, such as tribal Ancestors that you might in fact not be a direct descendant of, or Ancestors of a clan you were adopted by or married into? If you yourself were adopted as a child, do you have access to the Ancestors of your adopted family? Only of your adopted family? Essentially, can you "pick up" (or possibly even lose) new Ancestors through social and cultural means, or are they a fixed matter of descent?

Also, when do you not have access to someone who would otherwise count as an Ancestor? Heroes don't count for Ancestor spells, and presumably being devoured by the Bat would also make it... void. What about restrictive afterlives, like hells? In fact, what part(s) of the soul make up an Ancestor? If you summon an Ancestor who did well, do they come from the Underworld or from whatever nice afterlife they picked up? Does an Ancestor become unavailable if current reincarnated (presumably not?). If currently summoned by someone else (presumably yes?)? Can an Ancestor be summoned if it's also busy being a ghost (no, I think?)?

Edited April 10, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[soltakss]

For me, if you are part of an Ancestor worshipping family then an Ancestor is someone from that family. They don't have to be a direct ancestor, although that helps.

In the film "The Emerald Forest", there is a funeral service where they cremate a corpse and then place a handful of ashes into a common container, basically adding that person to the pot of ancestors. Others would have different ways of doing this, but it emphasises the importance of the proper funeral rites, so that you are accepted as an ancestor.

Adoption means that you are formally adopted by your parents and are now part of that lineage, so you adopt your new ancestors and discard your current ones. However, if you are an ancestor worshipper, then discarding your current ancestors is a big step, so adoption from an ancestor worshipping clan is rare.

Heroes count as Ancestors. In fact, one of the strengths of trolls is that they can Incarnate their Clan Founder, essentially a heroic ancestor.

 

As for what stops you from summoning an ancestor:

• Being bound into an item (cf The Sword of Rone)
• Being bound as a bound spirit, or as a ghost
• Being destroyed by Chaos
• Being trapped somewhere (Lunar hell, The Dead Place, other nasty places)
• Being reincarnated
• Being resurrected

 

 

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

So when it comes to Ancestor worship, who exactly counts? Does it have to be someone you're a direct descendant of (this would be the most immediate interpretation)? Or is it wider, such as (for instance) having access to "in-law" Ancestors of your wife or other family members? Do you have access to "cultural" Ancestors, such as tribal Ancestors .......

In my own very unofficial opinion the practise of reciting long lineages indicates that who is a blood ancestor counts.  

However when it comes to Sartarite  ancient tribal heroes, almost  everyone in the tribe may be related to them.  We are discussing a relatively small population that immigrated to Sartar and multiplied Post Dragonkill.  It is a situation in which your parents or grandparents may have been 4th cousins even though their clans practise exogamy (but mostly with the  same two or three parter clans.)  Go back another couple of hundred years and a lot of people are related.  

[Akhôrahil]

6 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

However when it comes to Sartarite  ancient tribal heroes, almost  everyone in the tribe may be related to them.  We are discussing a relatively small population that immigrated to Sartar and multiplied Post Dragonkill.  It is a situation in which your parents or grandparents may have been 4th cousins even though their clans practise exogamy (but mostly with the  same two or three parter clans.)  Go back another couple of hundred years and a lot of people are related.  

Agree completely about this - my setup was more in order to illustrate the conceptual discussion.

[David Scott]

14 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

So when it comes to Ancestor worship, who exactly counts? Does it have to be someone you're a direct descendant of (this would be the most immediate interpretation)? Or is it wider, such as (for instance) having access to "in-law" Ancestors of your wife or other family members? Do you have access to "cultural" Ancestors, such as tribal Ancestors that you might in fact not be a direct descendant of, or Ancestors of a clan you were adopted by or married into? If you yourself were adopted as a child, do you have access to the Ancestors of your adopted family? Only of your adopted family? Essentially, can you "pick up" (or possibly even lose) new Ancestors through social and cultural means, or are they a fixed matter of descent?

Given the variety of ancestor worship in the real world, the following is a good definition:

Ancestors: While this word suggests those from earlier generations, its precise meaning varies from one cultural context to another. It is likely that the term is equivalent to “all who have died” in modern European languages.

• Bloodline ancestors are those who went before that we are related to by birth. (So yes to your mother's brother, but not his wife (but see below).
• Milkline ancestors are all those who have nurtured us, but are not always related by blood (important if you are adopted, or brought up by in-law ancestors)
• Storyline ancestors are those who have nurtured or inspired us even though we have never met them (important for culture heroes)

There are other ways of describing these titles. The above come from Tom Cowen, author and shamanic practitioner.

Remember also that after about 12 generations you are related to most people in your area (I'm related to my partner as a 13th cousin)

 

[svensson]

To quote the line from 'The 13th Warrior', "Lo, there I see the line of my people going back to the beginning..."

Every single man and woman in your family going back into the Godtime is an 'ancestor' by the standards of Daka Fal. There are so many that you couldn't possibly know all their names. In the Spirit Plane of Glorantha, there are hundreds of thousands of spirits who are directly related to you by blood lineage on either side of your parentage. This is why the table for Summon Ancestor is random.

[Agentorange]

I've always wondered whether you could access magic from different traditions via ancester worship. So say my great great great grandmother was a western sorceress ( or grandfather if you would prefer ) who had a dalliance with the other grandparent...would I be able to contact them and learn sorcery ?

[David Scott]

Just now, Agentorange said:

I've always wondered whether you could access magic from different traditions via ancester worship. So say my great great great grandmother was a western sorceress ( or grandfather if you would prefer ) who had a dalliance with the other grandparent...would I be able to contact them and learn sorcery ?

Given the opposing natures of sorcery and spirit magic in RuneQuest, I'd say no. 

[HreshtIronBorne]

20 minutes ago, David Scott said:

22 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

I've always wondered whether you could access magic from different traditions via ancester worship. So say my great great great grandmother was a western sorceress ( or grandfather if you would prefer ) who had a dalliance with the other grandparent...would I be able to contact them and learn sorcery ?

Expand  

Given the opposing natures of sorcery and spirit magic in RuneQuest, I'd say no. 

Isn't that pretty much how Jeff has described the Malkioni Castes other than Zzaburri getting their magic? They worship their ancestors and get Rune Magic and Spirit Magic whether or not they have any Caste Spell or Powers or whatever else from the Western World. 

[svensson]

32 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

I've always wondered whether you could access magic from different traditions via ancester worship. So say my great great great grandmother was a western sorceress ( or grandfather if you would prefer ) who had a dalliance with the other grandparent...would I be able to contact them and learn sorcery ?

I would think that would depend on whether the Rune Spells are one-use or not. I don't see a 'Glorantha' or 'Stafford-logic' reason why you couldn't access different traditions. After all, a Lhankor Mhy sage in RQG has Spirit Magic, Rune Magic and Sorcery in the repertoire of a single person, something impossible in RQ3.

But if the Rune spells are reusable, that's rather different. A reusable Rune spell is an investment by a deity into their worshiper, a sharing of powers. If an ancestor worshiper gains Orlanth magic from an ancestor, I don't think they ought to be able to cast that ancestor's Rune spells reusably.

[metcalph]

32 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

I've always wondered whether you could access magic from different traditions via ancester worship. So say my great great great grandmother was a western sorceress ( or grandfather if you would prefer ) who had a dalliance with the other grandparent...would I be able to contact them and learn sorcery ?

I think those who master sorcery have an intense sense of individuality that prevents them from entering Solace and being re-incarnated.  (Yes, there's a huge tension here within Malkionism).  Others who have learned some find themselves confined to the Citadel of Thought until their knowledge decays and they are finally able to be free to await reincarnation.  That is why Malkioni ancestors that can be contacted have no sorcery or Rightness.

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 4/10/2023 at 7:17 PM, Akhôrahil said:

So when it comes to Ancestor worship, who exactly counts?

In my opinion, from the books and rules we have different types of ancestor

 

- the same blood ancestor ( Sartar, the flamme, etc...)

- the direct line ancestor ( to become a khan, you must have a noble ancestor)

- the clan ancestor (you are member of a clan, by blood, marriage, adoption, you worship the "elder" /"founders" / ... )

 

 

and to worship ancestor, it seems to me that you need a shaman priest of Daka Fal (or equivalent)

 

now what I consider in my game

cult of ancestor is just a "design". You can worship any group or indivual with the same mechanics. The only condition is that these people are... dead.

The gloranthan may call them ancestors (if they are) founders/elders (for example if you worship the first people of your guild, etc...)

 

the same "cult" (= shaman = same rune pool ) allows you to worship at different level the deads.

For example, a praxian clan will worship the clan ancestors and obtain from them what any clan can obtain. But in the same cult, the bloodline, the grand grand grand grand son will obtain from the first khan more, or different answers. However, that's the same shaman, maybe with a different ceremony, maybe with other conditions but you don't need to create a clan ancestor cult and my own ancestor cult

 

so you may interact with some dead you know you have a specific relationship, your grandmother, etc... you may interact with some "group of spirits" who answer like a wyter (not any more individual) and represent the full clan, or you may interact with some well known individual you have not a great relationship with her but you share the same community

then it is roleplay (and maybe some dice ) and social play. Who are you for the ancestor, what will she accept or not (like validate the khan position or just some blessing)

[Dragon]

8 hours ago, metcalph said:

I think those who master sorcery have an intense sense of individuality that prevents them from entering Solace and being re-incarnated.  (Yes, there's a huge tension here within Malkionism).  Others who have learned some find themselves confined to the Citadel of Thought until their knowledge decays and they are finally able to be free to await reincarnation.  That is why Malkioni ancestors that can be contacted have no sorcery or Rightness.

But The Well of Daliath states under Malkion: "The essence of his teaching is that the universe is not soulless for those who practice sorcery, and that they can enter the realm of Solace after death." So that sense of individuality does not prevent them from entering Solace in Malkionism.

Random ancestors would be wildly unlikely to have been Zzaburi. But Malkion's statement wouldn't explain why Malkioni Zzaburi ancestors contacted by Summon Specific Ancestor would not have sorcery if the shaman knew one's name. Unless of course in your Glorantha, Malkion was lying about Solace. That said, the shaman should be completely unable to learn a sorcery spell from said ancestor. Because of the shaman's nature, not whether that Zzaburi achieved Solace. Whether another person near the shaman could learn from said ancestor is up to your Glorantha.

[metcalph]

45 minutes ago, Dragon said:

But The Well of Daliath states under Malkion: "The essence of his teaching is that the universe is not soulless for those who practice sorcery, and that they can enter the realm of Solace after death." So that sense of individuality does not prevent them from entering Solace in Malkionism.

Can, not will.  

45 minutes ago, Dragon said:

Random ancestors would be wildly unlikely to have been Zzaburi. But Malkion's statement wouldn't explain why Malkioni Zzaburi ancestors contacted by Summon Specific Ancestor would not have sorcery if the shaman knew one's name.  Unless of course in your Glorantha, Malkion was lying about Solace.

IMO the Shaman blame Zzabur for not being able to summon Zzaburi Ancestors.  Nothing to do with Malkion at all

 

[AndreJarosch]

I don´t want to derail this tread, but: 

Since the spirit of a dead person can (will?) be reborn at some point, is this ancestor gone, and no longer available via ancestor worship when he is reincarnated?

[SDLeary]

13 hours ago, David Scott said:

Given the opposing natures of sorcery and spirit magic in RuneQuest, I'd say no. 

OK, so here is a question off the top. 

How about a Pact with the Ancestor; and perhaps calling on them when needed to cast said Sorcery?

SDLeary

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

I don´t want to derail this tread, but: 

Since the spirit of a dead person can (will?) be reborn at some point, is this ancestor gone, and no longer available via ancestor worship when he is reincarnated?

In my opinion / impression of Glorantha  yes, he is not available if reborn. But in game terms there is no criterion for judging reincarnation other than the GM's whim. 

Unless you know he has come back like Jaldon Goldentooth: once he has been summoned and reincarnated you can't summon him to a different place until he dies again.  Otherwise any shaman of Ty Kora Tek would be able to jerk his chain any time, which makes for weird story lines and nerfs the culture hero

This is in no way an official canon opinion, it's just me and logic.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, SDLeary said:

OK, so here is a question off the top. 

How about a Pact with the Ancestor; and perhaps calling on them when needed to cast said Sorcery?

SDLeary

As I understand it, the summoned dead are just around until your summoning spell ends.  Unless you cast a lot of Extension that is probably not enough time for them to do sorcery.

And I don't know that a pact with the dead is a thing on Glorantha.  There are pacts with allied cult spirits, based on your POW + CHA, but will those be sorcerors?  The god is dealing them out.

But I don't understand how summoning the dead and getting anything from them  fits in with their having crossed the Styx and forgotten their previous life.  Wouldn't they have forgotten both their descendants, the events of their past, and their skills like sorcery?  Why should they care to help you or recall any answer to your questions?

This just requires us to believe two contradictory things at once.  Which people are good at, but I'm just pointing it out.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[jajagappa]

27 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

In my opinion / impression of Glorantha  yes, he is not available if reborn. But in game terms there is no criterion for judging reincarnation ther than the GM's whim. 

Since the soul ostensibly has six parts (or seven if Lunar), I think it's easy to say that one part (without memories usually) is what is reincarnated (if your cult practices such), and another part with memories is what can be summoned.

[Squaredeal Sten]

6 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Since the soul ostensibly has six parts (or seven if Lunar), I think it's easy to say that one part (without memories usually) is what is reincarnated (if your cult practices such), and another part with memories is what can be summoned.

So is a reincarnated person short part of their soul?

[Ormi Phengaria]

Or, if you're still given worship as an ancestor while also reincarnating into others, you are mighty enough to be in multiple places at once, like the gods can. Possibly the case with most heroes. Might even meet and interact with yourself. I don't think that's so unimaginable.

[Eff]

4 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

I don´t want to derail this tread, but: 

Since the spirit of a dead person can (will?) be reborn at some point, is this ancestor gone, and no longer available via ancestor worship when he is reincarnated?

In the real world, ancestor veneration (which is the better term for what's going on in Gloranthan texts typically) and acceptance of reincarnation are quite compatible with one another. There are of course fine-grained metaphysical understandings of these things and how they mesh with one another (do some reading on the Ghost Festival in China and its Taoist and Buddhist origins, or on the distinctions between a tamaya, kamidana, and a butsudan are in a Japanese context, for two specific examples), but developing those in play seems like quite the enjoyable time to me.

[svensson]

5 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

I don´t want to derail this tread, but: 

Since the spirit of a dead person can (will?) be reborn at some point, is this ancestor gone, and no longer available via ancestor worship when he is reincarnated?

It's an interesting question. But with hundreds of thousands to choose from, it shouldn't be a problem.

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So is a reincarnated person short part of their soul?

No, they just have 5 new parts in addition to the reincarnated part. (Or whatever combination is preferred or works.)

[Shiningbrow]

I'd just like to point out that the Uz allow for learning (using, casting) any form of magic, and I can therefore certainly see a troll with Rune Magic from KL or DF or similar, with obviously Spirit magic spells - and sorcery! And that also means a priestess who then goes on to talk to their version of the First Shaman, and then face their version of the Bad Man....

And, therefore, anyone with Summon Ancestor should also be able to summon one who has sorcery, and would, by extension, be able to teach it!