Jeff Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 From time to time I try to put Gloranthan events in historical context, to help get a feel for "how long ago" something was. So here's a history of Dragon Pass with the foundation of the Kingdom of Sartar (1492) being synchronized with the Ratification of the US constitution (1789). Some of these dates are +/- a year or two, but this is just to get a feeling rather than precise dates. American History Date (AD) / Gloranthan Date (ST) 1420 AD - King Henry V becomes regent France / 1120 ST Dragonkill War 1547 AD - King Henry VIII dies / 1248 ST - Red Moon rises 1620 AD - Plymouth Bay Colony established / 1320 ST Orlanthi begin to resettle Dragon Pass 1789 AD - Ratification of the US Constitution / 1492 ST Sartar acclaimed Prince by assembled tribes 1817 AD - Era of Good Feelings begins 1520 ST - Apotheosis of Sartar 1847 AD - US Army captures Mexico City /1550 ST- Death of Prince Saronil 1863 AD - Battle of Gettysburg /1565 ST - Battle of Dwarf Ford 1867 AD - Reconstruction /1569 ST - Prince Jarolar killed by Elmali 1876 AD- Wild Bill Hickok killed /1578 ST - King Tarkalor dominates Dragon Pass 1901 AD - Teddy Roosevelt president /1602 ST - Lunar Empire rules Sartar 1922 AD - Pres. Harding makes first radio speech /1625 ST - Liberation of Sartar 1952 AD - Eisenhower elected president / 1655 ST traditional date for end of Hero Wars So if we posit our campaigns starting around the time when Harding was president (the era of Call of Cthulhu), the Hero Wars end with the election of Eisenhower. And when viewed this way, the Vingkotlings (subject of so much fascination by some fans), would have coexisted with the rise of Uruk. 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallowglass Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 1 hour ago, Jeff said: And when viewed this way, the Vingkotlings (subject of so much fascination by some fans), would have coexisted with the rise of Uruk Aren’t “modern Orlanthi” able to visit the time of the Vingkotlings in Heroquests? I would think that still makes them feel more relevant, even with all the time that has passed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard S. Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 1 minute ago, Gallowglass said: Aren’t “modern Orlanthi” able to visit the time of the Vingkotlings in Heroquests? I would think that still makes them feel more relevant, even with all the time that has passed. While there's probably several myths of the Orlanthi from around the same "time" as the Vingkotlings, it's not time travel. Modern Orlanthi will probably be aware of the Vingkotlings as ancestors, but they won't really interact with them as anything other than characters in the myth being told. You could take part in a play set in the time and place of your own distant ancestors and probably have about the same level of interaction with them as Gloranthans would have on a this-world heroquest, which is the farthest most will ever go. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radmonger Posted April 26, 2023 Share Posted April 26, 2023 8 hours ago, Richard S. said: Modern Orlanthi will probably be aware of the Vingkotlings as ancestors, but they won't really interact with them as anything other than characters in the myth being told. Excepting a handful of academics, this a hell of a lot more than any modern american interacts with any legacy of Uruk. https://www.joh.cam.ac.uk/babylonian-story-revenge-made-worlds-first-original-language-film A minimal comparison would be with those ancient Greek plays that still sometimes get performed and even watched. https://archive.kpcc.org/blogs/offramp/2014/09/05/17257/world-s-oldest-play-persians-has-message-for-today/ Myths of the vingkotlings are probably more like Shakespeare; from a different land, and clearly archaic, but many people know them. And also, they give you superpowers, 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfbrandi Posted April 26, 2023 Share Posted April 26, 2023 8 hours ago, Gallowglass said: visit the time of the Vingkotlings in Heroquests? I would think that still makes them feel more relevant 8 hours ago, Richard S. said: it's not time travel … they won't really interact with them as anything other than characters … You could take part in a play set in the time and place of your own distant ancestors and probably have about the same level of interaction I am tempted to agree with you both: they will feel more connected to their supposed ancestors; what is seen, heard, smelled, tasted, and touched of their “ancestors” on the heroquest may be no more real than the events of a play, of fiction, of a trip. I come back from my heroquest and now I can blow shit up, but that doesn’t mean the tale I have to tell is true, is history (remade) — nor that I have travelled back in time some way past the beginning of time. But where would that leave the “reality” of the gods? Quote NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squaredeal Sten Posted April 26, 2023 Share Posted April 26, 2023 3 hours ago, mfbrandi said: ......... I come back from my heroquest and now I can blow shit up, but that doesn’t mean the tale I have to tell is true, is history (remade) — nor that I have travelled back in time some way past the beginning of time. But where would that leave the “reality” of the gods? The " reality of tbe gods" is as malleable as other legends, in my unofficial view. As demonstrated by the God Learners and also by the Seven Mothers reviving the Red Goddess. As demonstrated by the Elmal/Yelmalio threads that will not die, even though they annoy Jeff and are beginning to bore me. How malleable is that? Usually not very. As I understand it change will normally be cumulative and minor. One heroquester coming back from the Other Side with an edited legend won't do it. But repetition of quests and telling that tale to many others, will do it as the Gloranthan population accepts the edited legend. Generational change or slower is the pace I envision. But i wrote "normally". Sometimes, once an Age, the abnormal is done: You get Monrogh reshaping Yelmalio as he reshapes the Yelmalians. You get the Seven Mothers presenting the Red Goddess. These are still the products of a charismatic prophet and a lifetime. A long campaign, not an adventure. And while Your Glorantha May Vary, that doesn't mean mine varies with yours. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted April 26, 2023 Share Posted April 26, 2023 5 hours ago, radmonger said: Excepting a handful of academics, this a hell of a lot more than any modern american interacts with any legacy of Uruk. Perhaps better to relate it to those myths most Americans are familiar with, e.g. Cain and Abel, Methusaleh, Noah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted April 26, 2023 Author Share Posted April 26, 2023 36 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said: The " reality of tbe gods" is as malleable as other legends, in my unofficial view. As demonstrated by the God Learners and also by the Seven Mothers reviving the Red Goddess. As demonstrated by the Elmal/Yelmalio threads that will not die, even though they annoy Jeff and are beginning to bore me. How malleable is that? Usually not very. As I understand it change will normally be cumulative and minor. One heroquester coming back from the Other Side with an edited legend won't do it. But repetition of quests and telling that tale to many others, will do it as the Gloranthan population accepts the edited legend. Generational change or slower is the pace I envision. But i wrote "normally". Sometimes, once an Age, the abnormal is done: You get Monrogh reshaping Yelmalio as he reshapes the Yelmalians. You get the Seven Mothers presenting the Red Goddess. These are still the products of a charismatic prophet and a lifetime. A long campaign, not an adventure. And while Your Glorantha May Vary, that doesn't mean mine varies with yours. "Malleable" is probably the wrong word as it conjures up hints of Orwell. Understanding of myth for most cults is based on participation in that myth, and then seeing the meaning of that myth and then seeing beyond that to a new meaning. As Lhankor Mhy writes, "Mythology is the art of Meaning." But in the end, Gloranthans participate in these myths. When we participate in a myth, we interact with the gods and might reveal secrets previously unrevealed that are clues to deeper meaning and understanding. For example, we can question then, confirm their identity through such techniques as the Three Questions Contest or other Challenges. Different mortals are going to have different experiences and meanings. Is that "malleability"? Or is that merely a reflection of mortal limitation in perceiving the fullness of the divine? 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrGoth Posted April 26, 2023 Share Posted April 26, 2023 15 hours ago, Jeff said: 1420 AD - King Henry V becomes regent France / 1120 ST Dragonkill War Just goes to show - crying "once more unto the breach" doesn't work too well when it's dragons making the breach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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