Synchronising history

[Jeff]

From time to time I try to put Gloranthan events in historical context, to help get a feel for "how long ago" something was. So here's a history of Dragon Pass with the foundation of the Kingdom of Sartar (1492) being synchronized with the Ratification of the US constitution (1789). Some of these dates are +/- a year or two, but this is just to get a feeling rather than precise dates.

 

American History Date (AD) / Gloranthan Date (ST)

1420 AD - King Henry V becomes regent France / 1120 ST Dragonkill War

1547 AD - King Henry VIII dies / 1248 ST - Red Moon rises

1620 AD - Plymouth Bay Colony established / 1320 ST Orlanthi begin to resettle Dragon Pass

1789 AD - Ratification of the US Constitution / 1492 ST Sartar acclaimed Prince by assembled tribes

1817 AD - Era of Good Feelings begins 1520 ST - Apotheosis of Sartar

1847 AD - US Army captures Mexico City /1550 ST- Death of Prince Saronil

1863 AD - Battle of Gettysburg /1565 ST - Battle of Dwarf Ford

1867 AD - Reconstruction /1569 ST - Prince Jarolar killed by Elmali

1876 AD- Wild Bill Hickok killed /1578 ST - King Tarkalor dominates Dragon Pass

1901 AD - Teddy Roosevelt president /1602 ST - Lunar Empire rules Sartar

1922 AD - Pres. Harding makes first radio speech /1625 ST - Liberation of Sartar

1952 AD - Eisenhower elected president / 1655 ST traditional date for end of Hero Wars

 

So if we posit our campaigns starting around the time when Harding was president (the era of Call of Cthulhu), the Hero Wars end with the election of Eisenhower. And when viewed this way, the Vingkotlings (subject of so much fascination by some fans), would have coexisted with the rise of Uruk.

[Gallowglass]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

And when viewed this way, the Vingkotlings (subject of so much fascination by some fans), would have coexisted with the rise of Uruk

Aren’t “modern Orlanthi” able to visit the time of the Vingkotlings in Heroquests? I would think that still makes them feel more relevant, even with all the time that has passed. 

[Richard S.]

1 minute ago, Gallowglass said:

Aren’t “modern Orlanthi” able to visit the time of the Vingkotlings in Heroquests? I would think that still makes them feel more relevant, even with all the time that has passed. 

While there's probably several myths of the Orlanthi from around the same "time" as the Vingkotlings, it's not time travel. Modern Orlanthi will probably be aware of the Vingkotlings as ancestors, but they won't really interact with them as anything other than characters in the myth being told. You could take part in a play set in the time and place of your own distant ancestors and probably have about the same level of interaction with them as Gloranthans would have on a this-world heroquest, which is the farthest most will ever go.

[radmonger]

8 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Modern Orlanthi will probably be aware of the Vingkotlings as ancestors, but they won't really interact with them as anything other than characters in the myth being told.

Excepting a handful of academics, this a hell of a lot more than any modern american interacts with any legacy of Uruk.

https://www.joh.cam.ac.uk/babylonian-story-revenge-made-worlds-first-original-language-film

A minimal comparison would be with those ancient Greek plays that still sometimes get performed and even watched.

https://archive.kpcc.org/blogs/offramp/2014/09/05/17257/world-s-oldest-play-persians-has-message-for-today/

Myths of the vingkotlings are probably more like Shakespeare; from a  different land, and clearly archaic, but many people know them.

And also, they give you superpowers, 

 

[mfbrandi]

8 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

visit the time of the Vingkotlings in Heroquests? I would think that still makes them feel more relevant

8 hours ago, Richard S. said:

it's not time travel … they won't really interact with them as anything other than characters … You could take part in a play set in the time and place of your own distant ancestors and probably have about the same level of interaction

I am tempted to agree with you both:

• they will feel more connected to their supposed ancestors;
• what is seen, heard, smelled, tasted, and touched of their “ancestors” on the heroquest may be no more real than the events of a play, of fiction, of a trip.

I come back from my heroquest and now I can blow shit up, but that doesn’t mean the tale I have to tell is true, is history (remade) — nor that I have travelled back in time some way past the beginning of time.

But where would that leave the “reality” of the gods?

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

.........

I come back from my heroquest and now I can blow shit up, but that doesn’t mean the tale I have to tell is true, is history (remade) — nor that I have travelled back in time some way past the beginning of time.

But where would that leave the “reality” of the gods?

The " reality of tbe gods" is as malleable as other legends, in my unofficial view. As demonstrated by the God Learners and also by the Seven Mothers reviving the Red Goddess.  As demonstrated by the Elmal/Yelmalio threads that will not die, even though they annoy Jeff and are beginning to bore me.

How malleable is that?  Usually not very.  As I understand it change will normally be cumulative and minor.  One heroquester coming back from the Other Side with an edited legend won't do it.  But repetition of quests and telling that tale to many others, will do it as the Gloranthan population accepts the edited legend. Generational change or slower is the pace I envision.  

But i wrote "normally".  Sometimes, once an Age, the abnormal is done: You get Monrogh reshaping Yelmalio as he reshapes the Yelmalians.  You get the Seven Mothers presenting the Red Goddess.  These are still the products of a charismatic prophet and a lifetime.  A long campaign, not an adventure.  And while Your Glorantha May Vary, that doesn't mean mine varies with yours. 

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, radmonger said:

Excepting a handful of academics, this a hell of a lot more than any modern american interacts with any legacy of Uruk.

Perhaps better to relate it to those myths most Americans are familiar with, e.g. Cain and Abel, Methusaleh, Noah.

[Jeff]

36 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

The " reality of tbe gods" is as malleable as other legends, in my unofficial view. As demonstrated by the God Learners and also by the Seven Mothers reviving the Red Goddess.  As demonstrated by the Elmal/Yelmalio threads that will not die, even though they annoy Jeff and are beginning to bore me.

How malleable is that?  Usually not very.  As I understand it change will normally be cumulative and minor.  One heroquester coming back from the Other Side with an edited legend won't do it.  But repetition of quests and telling that tale to many others, will do it as the Gloranthan population accepts the edited legend. Generational change or slower is the pace I envision.  

But i wrote "normally".  Sometimes, once an Age, the abnormal is done: You get Monrogh reshaping Yelmalio as he reshapes the Yelmalians.  You get the Seven Mothers presenting the Red Goddess.  These are still the products of a charismatic prophet and a lifetime.  A long campaign, not an adventure.  And while Your Glorantha May Vary, that doesn't mean mine varies with yours. 

"Malleable" is probably the wrong word as it conjures up hints of Orwell. Understanding of myth for most cults is based on participation in that myth, and then seeing the meaning of that myth and then seeing beyond that to a new meaning. As Lhankor Mhy writes, "Mythology is the art of Meaning." But in the end, Gloranthans participate in these myths.

When we participate in a myth, we interact with the gods and might reveal secrets previously unrevealed that are clues to deeper meaning and understanding. For example, we can question then, confirm their identity through such techniques as the Three Questions Contest or other Challenges. Different mortals are going to have different experiences and meanings. Is that "malleability"? Or is that merely a reflection of mortal limitation in perceiving the fullness of the divine?

[DrGoth]

15 hours ago, Jeff said:

1420 AD - King Henry V becomes regent France / 1120 ST Dragonkill War

Just goes to show - crying "once more unto the breach" doesn't work too well when it's dragons making the breach