CHA is underwhelming, and other rule tinkering topics

[Lloyd Dupont]

CHA 13 is all you need it seems, give you the +1XP (when in town), what other benefit is there for high CHA?
(I know, 18CHA instead of 13 gives a +5% headstart on CHA derived skill.. but this is a rather punny improvement, I reckon...)
(ok it is used with Animism or something, but planning to use Classic Fantasy, CHA doesn't help in magic over there)

Another question which nag my mind, I know save are often skill vs skill, like Magic Skill vs Willpower. Is there anytime one could or would transform that into a characteristic contest like in BRP (where equal value have 50% of success, and increase/decrease by 5% for each point of difference) (related to CHA, sometimes I might want to role CHA vs INT contest or the like of it, maybe augmented with Insight, ie. +Insight%/5 chance of success, or passion?)

Are shield damaged when parrying? They seem to behave like cover with unlimited HP as far as I see it...

In Classic Fantasy, if you are a fighter, each rank you can buy some perks for XP. It is worded as if you could only buy 1. I find Fighter class, while still good, a little underwhelming compared to say, Wizard with their tons of spells. Would it really hurt anyone to let Fighter by all the available perks? After all, for example, 2 weapon mastery don't do more damage than 1 weapon mastery, but feels way cooler. Beside it's another XP sink.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Lloyd Dupont

[Ravenheart87]

36 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

CHA 13 is all you need it seems, give you the +1XP (when in town), what other benefit is there for high CHA?
(I know, 18CHA instead of 13 gives a +5% headstart on CHA derived skill.. but this is a rather punny improvement, I reckon...)
(ok it is used with Animism or something, but planning to use Classic Fantasy, CHA doesn't help in magic over there)

In case of CHA x 2 skills like Influence that's a hefty +10% bonus. How useful it is of course depends on your campaign. Having high STR for example doesn't make much difference in a campaign focusing on intrigue or taking place in a post-gunpowder setting.

  

36 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Another question which nag my mind, I know save are often skill vs skill, like Magic Skill vs Willpower. Is there anytime one could or would transform that into a characteristic contest like in BRP (where equal value have 50% of success, and increase/decrease by 5% for each point of difference) (related to CHA, sometimes I might want to role CHA vs INT contest or the like of it, maybe augmented with Insight, ie. +Insight%/5 chance of success, or passion?)

 

I don't see any characteristic test that doesn't have an equivalent on the skill list. What's the goal of your CHA vs INT test? Why isn't Deceit vs Insight or Influence vs Insight good for you?

 

36 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Are shield damaged when parrying? They seem to behave like cover with unlimited HP as far as I see it...

There is a Damage Weapon special effect.

[lawrence.whitaker]

CHA is fundamental component of 5 Standard Skills and 12 Professional skills (excluding the Magic skills, which bring it up to 15) and an infinite number of Passions. It's as well represented as any of the other characteristics and, indeed, was consciously designed that way.

Generally Mythras eschews characteristic rolls, but in certain circumstances that may be useful and helpful. There's no reason why you couldn't use a CHA multiplier to resist another skill, although generally there is a skill that's designed to do the job (such as Insight, Influence, Willpower or Deceit).

And no, shields don't suffer incidental damage when used to parry. They can be damaged though, if specifically targeted for damage, or using the Damage Weapon Special Effect.

[Raleel]

6 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

CHA 13 is all you need it seems, give you the +1XP (when in town), what other benefit is there for high CHA?
(I know, 18CHA instead of 13 gives a +5% headstart on CHA derived skill.. but this is a rather punny improvement, I reckon...)
(ok it is used with Animism or something, but planning to use Classic Fantasy, CHA doesn't help in magic over there)

"when in town" really depends on your game. For my game, it averaged about once every other session.  That adds up fairly quick. 5% over half a dozen skills is a lot of skill points.

Charisma plays a role in divine magic in CF, specifically in Channel and Piety. It's literally half of the magic skill base for clerics and druids, as well as druidic bards and rangers.

6 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

In Classic Fantasy, if you are a fighter, each rank you can buy some perks for XP. It is worded as if you could only buy 1. I find Fighter class, while still good, a little underwhelming compared to say, Wizard with their tons of spells. Would it really hurt anyone to let Fighter by all the available perks? After all, for example, 2 weapon mastery don't do more damage than 1 weapon mastery, but feels way cooler. Beside it's another XP sink.

I had a fighter in my game. He was not "underwhelming" to say the least. He was the second toughest (we had a paladin), and he did the most damage by a stretch. What you are missing is that he gets access to any weapon, and all the attendant special effects that go along with it, as well as being better in his fighter skills because he doesn't have XP sinks. He's going to have the highest endurance, one of the highest evades, the highest brawn, and will eventually be able to fair well in willpower as well. He's always going to hit, he's going to be able to block giants, he's going to be very hard to stop. The fighter (and the paladin) forced me to move to armor piercing crossbow bolts  and magic that ignored armor to threaten them. They are very strong.

Nothing stops you from doing what you want - it's designed to emulate 2e AD&D, which only allowed one. 

have you played a game yet?

[Lloyd Dupont]

I guess CHA determine initial Skill value... but it's easy to forget afterwards.. although now that you reminded me, I can see it's something. And while it doesn't feel as impactful as, say, STR+SIZ doing bonus damage... well I guess there is less crunch dedicated to influence and also.. I just remembered since it's not explicitly mentioned in Mythras or CF, but some people came up with conflict... which, is perfect way to blend skill and characteristic, when needed...

I am just reading CF again... refreshing my memory.. and oh, I see you mean they are CHA based skill. Mmmmf.

To answer the question, nope I haven't played CF yet. I played Mythras, as GM only though. And it's easy to ignore characteristic when I just eyeball my NPC skill values arbitrarily, in fact I am not sure how the player feels about the impact of the characteristic, never asked them. It's only relevant for the next characters they will roll, as I plan to roll base characteristics as normal, and then add 2~3 bonus D6 where they want. And I feel like I would put all in INT/DEX/STR/CON if it were me...

Also haven't played BRP/RD100/Mythras in a while since we took turn at GMing... Juts preparing a campaign to GM next. And I am definitely enticed by CF.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Lloyd Dupont

[Mugen]

If you only focus on secondary attributes, I think you can find an optimal value for every characteristic in Mythras, except for POW, where each point adds 1 to your MP maximum.

For those that are paired with other stats to determine secondary attributes, that optimal value depends on the other part of the duo.

[Lloyd Dupont]

On 6/4/2023 at 12:12 AM, Mugen said:

If you only focus on secondary attributes, I think you can find an optimal value for every characteristic in Mythras, except for POW, where each point adds 1 to your MP maximum.

For those that are paired with other stats to determine secondary attributes, that optimal value depends on the other part of the duo.

true, true.. 

However, it's mostly because, come to think of it, there isn't that many number to tweak in the convincing. game.

Whereas for fighting... every INT+DEX point is worth 1 initiative point advantage every round of combat. every few points of STR+SIZ is worth some higher damage bonus every round of combat, every SIZ+CON point is worth higher HP.

But anyway, trying to apply extended conflict where CHA is a sort of HP pool is the way to fight that. But I don't like extended conflict that often. Maybe for court case, and climbing a mountain? But anyway, there is a way! 🙂

[Mugen]

1 hour ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Whereas for fighting... every INT+DEX point is worth 1 initiative point advantage every round of combat. every few points of STR+SIZ is worth some higher damage bonus every round of combat, every SIZ+CON point is worth higher HP.

In Mythras, secondary attributes charts usually work with multiples of 5 or 6. You need 5 full points in SIZ+CON to gain extra 1 extra HP in each location, for instance. The only exceptions being the MP maximum and Initiative Bonus.

A solution to make 18 APP more appealing would be to change the charts to allow humans with maximum rolled attribute (i.e. 18) to have a benefit. I don't think it would break the game.

1 hour ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

But anyway, trying to apply extended conflict where CHA is a sort of HP pool is the way to fight that. But I don't like extended conflict that often. Maybe for court case, and climbing a mountain? But anyway, there is a way! 

🙂

I agree.

[Lloyd Dupont]

18 hours ago, Mugen said:

You need 5 full points in SIZ+CON to gain extra 1 extra HP in each location, for instance

oh damn, you right... too used to general HP from BRP, right!!

[Atgxtg]

On 5/27/2023 at 9:56 AM, Lloyd Dupont said:

I guess CHA determine initial Skill value... but it's easy to forget afterwards

That's why I liked how category modifiers added to improvement rolls in RQ3. Having a high CHA/APP not only improved your starting score, but added a few percentiles to your improvement rolls with CHA based skills, leading to slightly faster improvement and slighter higher skills throughout the character's career. . Something like adding 1/5th the base score to improvement rolls in Mythras would make all attributes more useful after chargen.

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Atgxtg

[lawrence.whitaker]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

That's why I liked how category modifiers added to improvement rolls in RQ3. Having a high CHA/APP not only improved your starting score, but added a few percentiles to your improvement rolls with CHA based skills, leading to slightly faster improvement and slighter higher skills throughout the character's career. . Something like adding 1/5th the base score to improvement rolls in Mythras would make all attributes more useful after chargen.

 

INT is added to the d100 roll for improving skills, but there are good arguments for making the bonus be one of the two characteristics that make up the base.

[Atgxtg]

5 hours ago, lawrence.whitaker said:

INT is added to the d100 roll for improving skills,

I know, RQ2 and BRP do the same. I just mentioned this because the OP was wondering about the value of CHA and how to make it more useful. 

5 hours ago, lawrence.whitaker said:

 

but there are good arguments for making the bonus be one of the two characteristics that make up the base.

Or even the average of the two.  

[lawrence.whitaker]

8 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I know, RQ2 and BRP do the same. I just mentioned this because the OP was wondering about the value of CHA and how to make it more useful. 

Or even the average of the two.  

I do go for the higher of the two. Less math.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, lawrence.whitaker said:

I do go for the higher of the two. Less math.

Works for me. 

[Mugen]

On 6/11/2023 at 10:57 PM, Atgxtg said:

That's why I liked how category modifiers added to improvement rolls in RQ3. Having a high CHA/APP not only improved your starting score, but added a few percentiles to your improvement rolls with CHA based skills, leading to slightly faster improvement and slighter higher skills throughout the character's career. . Something like adding 1/5th the base score to improvement rolls in Mythras would make all attributes more useful after chargen.

 

It could be possible to introduce an optimal skill value for each skill, which should be used instead of 100. It would be based on the skill base value, for instance (base x3). If your skill is under that optimum, your experience roll would be a roll under (optimal skill - actual skill).

[Atgxtg]

8 hours ago, Mugen said:

It could be possible to introduce an optimal skill value for each skill, which should be used instead of 100. It would be based on the skill base value, for instance (base x3). If your skill is under that optimum, your experience roll would be a roll under (optimal skill - actual skill).

Yeah, you could. Probably something like 100%+Stat. So Someone with CHA would roll against 115%. But, that would functionally be the same as add CHA to the improvement rolls, but require slightly more math that what Loz suggested. For example: Skill 60%, CHA 15 would be:

100

+15 CHA

------------

115

-60% Skill

----------------

55% chance to improve

 

as opposed to:

Roll over 60 = 40% chance to improve

+15 CHA = Roll over 45, for a 55% chance to improve. 

 

Loz wins again! (Good title for a movie or slogan for a T-Shirt).

 

 

 

 

 

[Mugen]

16 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Yeah, you could. Probably something like 100%+Stat. 

No, not something like 100+characteristic or anything that is just the same as another rule, but clunkier.  🙂

Something that depends on skill base value, and can be below 100 if base skill is lower than average. I wrote Base x3, but it's obviously too low.

16 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

 

 

[Atgxtg]

5 hours ago, Mugen said:

No, not something like 100+characteristic or anything that is just the same as another rule, but clunkier.  🙂

Something that depends on skill base value, and can be below 100 if base skill is lower than average. I wrote Base x3, but it's obviously too low.

 

Base x5 would be the logical choice which would mean a 5% difference in max per point of attribute. I'm not so sure about the merits of such a cap though. HARN has one, but but HARN has slower development making the cap sort of moot. THe cap would make attributes more important though.

[Mugen]

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Base x5 would be the logical choice which would mean a 5% difference in max per point of attribute. 

I truly don't know which multiplier to use.

And, to make matters worse, I tend to use 2d6+6 for all characteristics, which means I need another multiplier myself...

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I'm not so sure about the merits of such a cap though.

It's not really a cap, as it would still be possible to increase skills after reaching this value, but only 1% each time. Perhaps with a minimum 5% chance...

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Mugen said:

I truly don't know which multiplier to use.

It depends on when you want things to get more difficult. The most likely places are 50% (i.e. professional level), 75% (veteran/expert level), 90% (mastery) or 100%.

1 hour ago, Mugen said:

And, to make matters worse, I tend to use 2d6+6 for all characteristics, which means I need another multiplier myself...

Not necessarily. Assuming that 2d6+6 represents above average PCs, then they would have above average caps

1 hour ago, Mugen said:

It's not really a cap, as it would still be possible to increase skills after reaching this value, but only 1% each time. Perhaps with a minimum 5% chance...

It's a soft cap. You can exceed it but it bets tougher. This is similar to how in RQ3 you needed to roll over 100% to improve skill that were 100% or higher, which limited ultra high skills to those with a positive category modifier. BTW, that makes 100% look like a nice place for the limit. 

 

But then it all depends on if you want/need such a rule, and at what power level a game is at.  For some groups and characters it's a non-limit as they might never get skills that high. For others it could show up during chargen.

 

For me, if I were to use such a rule I'd probably keep the improvement chance the same (the attribute) but just reduce the improvement from 1d4+1% to a flat 1% and eliminate the 1% flat improvement for failed rolls, past the cap. So once someone hits the "threshold" improvement would slow down, and putting rolls into other skill becomes a better option.