Gloranthan Coins

[DrGoth]

I actually kind of like Dragon Pass and Prax using 'Lunar' in world, not just for game purposes.  It shows how things from a a dominant culture seep in. And it is sort of implied by p5 and weapons and equipment

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, DrGoth said:

I actually kind of like Dragon Pass and Prax using 'Lunar' in world, not just for game purposes.  It shows how things from a a dominant culture seep in. And it is sort of implied by p5 and weapons and equipment

I think they could say ”Lunar” (the currency) ”silver piece” (the type of coin), or probably a whole slew of different words (much like the pound can be a ”quid”).

Edited July 10, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

On 7/11/2023 at 12:23 AM, Akhôrahil said:

I think they could say ”Lunar” (the currency) ”silver piece” (the type of coin), or probably a whole slew of different words (much like the pound can be a ”quid”).

Weapons & Equipment, p. 5 - different currencies. Prior to the Lunar invasion, Sartar used 'guilder's, and so I would presume that once the Lunars have been removed, then the Lunars were no longer accepted (except in a few rare instances with traders), and the guilder was reinstated.

[metcalph]

9 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Weapons & Equipment, p. 5 - different currencies. Prior to the Lunar invasion, Sartar used 'guilder's, and so I would presume that once the Lunars have been removed, then the Lunars were no longer accepted (except in a few rare instances with traders), and the guilder was reinstated.

Gresham's law - the bad currency drives out the good.  Guilders will be hoarded while Lunars will be freely spent in order to be rid of.  Besides coining a lot of silver coins for the new regime will take time.

[Richard S.]

Considering how important trade is for Sartar and how much of it comes from the Lunar Empire I doubt there's any realistic way to remove Lunars from circulation. They may well start minting Guilders again, and some particularly fanatic supporters of the Prince might refuse to use Lunars, but I doubt most people who use coins can afford to do that.

[Squaredeal Sten]

On the other hand in the Real World it was common for a new regime to re coin old currency.  The reason was to get the king's (or in this case the Prince's) image out there (next best thing to TV ads) , and to show everyone who was newly in charge.  

(Sometimes the reason for re coining was also to debase the currency and inflate the treasury.  But that is for old regimes struggling with debt, not new ones like Argrath's.  Because when the debasing becomes obvious people can see that you're a cheat.)

But realistically you can't re coin it all very quickly.  You"re making coins one by one with a hammer and a pair of dies.  Making or reproducing the dies will be a difficult process in a low tech world.   (IMHO it would be worth using iron for dies, even at 700L a Thing In Glorantha.  Because you don't want them to wear out.)  

    There would be both old and new coins in circulation for a long time.  And as the Guilder and Lunar are approximately the same weight of silver a handful of them is likely to be mixed.  Also remember that trade with Peloria continues and the flow of silver is evidently southward rather than being balanced.

 

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

Considering how important trade is for Sartar and how much of it comes from the Lunar Empire I doubt there's any realistic way to remove Lunars from circulation. They may well start minting Guilders again, and some particularly fanatic supporters of the Prince might refuse to use Lunars, but I doubt most people who use coins can afford to do that.

Over time, they will be recalled and re-coined (and probably debased). But that will take a very long time.

[JRE]

There are two aspects that always concern me about Gloranthan coinage. Where are the Sartarites getting their silver, and why, in an area with plentiful bronze deposits, they do not use bronze for coining, rather than their enemies silver. Bronze has been used in most of European history as a coinage metal, replaced later by brass and other cheaper alloys.

The Lunars have religious reasons to use and spread silver. The two only regions in the Guide that export silver are Jrustela y Umathela. The only declared importer of silver is Teleos, which I find also surprising considering their limited material culture. I suppose, due to the mythical origins of the metals, that the Blue Moon plateau is rich in silver, and that would explain where the Lunars get their silver.

It would make a lot of sense for Argrath to issue guilders made from bronze, much larger than the clacks and probably worth more. Greek coinage had bronze coins worth around 4 times the value of a copper coin of the same weight, while many other ancient coinmakers just ignored copper due to the low value and vulnerabily to corrosion. The plentiful bronze could make relative values different, but it is still a much better coin metal than copper, so I am still concerned about the absence of bronze coins in Glorantha. In the meantime they must be refacing lunars, though that is viable only when they are winning...

In Roman coins, gold is worth around 10-12 times the weight in silver (though actual precious metal content is less than in Glorantha, and can be extremely low), so it fits with the Gloranthan values. Silver is worth 15-20 times more than Bronze, which is worth twice more than Brass, which is worth twice more than Copper, so we lose the nice tenfold impact of Gloranthan regularity.

The exception would be the Chinese, who used copper for a long time, and were the first to recognize that money's value was nominal and not associated to the precious metal content, which is why they do not use precious metals as coinage. The Chinese copper coin metal is alloyed with lead and with some tin, so it is not pure copper, and made that way so it melts more easily, as the Chinese cast their coins, rather than using dies like the Europeans, and we suppose most Gloranthans, from the examples in the Guide.

The coin examples in the Guide show typical weights similar to ancient coins, though copper and bronze would typically have also larger and heavier forms. Roman sestertius were 25-30 g (around 1 troy ounce) of brass, or half that of bronze, and there was a bronze double sestertius that was worth half the basic silver coin, the denarius, which was similar to a lunar coin (0.2 troy ounce). In Roman terms, the clack with the proposed weight would be worth only 1/60th of a silver lunar, but typically there would be a heavy  1 ounce coin that would be worth ten times less than the lunar. Lead has never been used for coinage on Earth, except to debase and make easier to melt other metals.

[Shiningbrow]

11 hours ago, JRE said:

the first to recognize that money's value was nominal and not associated to the precious metal content, which is why they do not use precious metals as coinage.

I think this is a really important point! Have Gloranthan (at least, Sartarite, Esrolian, Lunar, Praxian) come to this conclusion?? I have been presuming it hasn't.

If not, then it would suggest that a sword is worth about 1/10th of it's weight in silver (well, more, because that would just be the value of the metal - how much for the craftmanship and labour, etc??)

And if you were paying in bronze, that would be a few ENCs worth. (not that anyone is buying a sword very often). But, having a coin (or something) between a bronze and a gold would make sense.

15 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

(IMHO it would be worth using iron for dies, even at 700L a Thing In Glorantha.

I wouldn't think a die would be that big... of course, I don't really know!

I figured it would be much easier just to melt the silver into moulds - significantly cheaper, maybe quicker. Turn all those Lunars you have in your pocket to Guilders within minutes.

[Richard S.]

Oh boy here I go pasting links again:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/coinage-and-value/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/silver-lunars-and-costs/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/lunar-legacy-in-sartar/

In general it looks like those who care are settling for defacing over re-minting. The kingdom just doesn't have the resources to mint a whole lot of coins yet, and I can't imagine they really get the Guilder machine rolling until a bit into Argrath's reign.

I thought I remembered something about the God Learners being the ones to popularize silver coinage, but I can't find it now.

[JRE]

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

I thought I remembered something about the God Learners being the ones to popularize silver coinage, but I can't find it now.

That would fit with Jrustela and Umathela being silver exporters, as former Jrusteli power centers. But is the silver coming from mines, or recovered hoards in Jrusteli ruins, after they pillaged Glorantha's silver for four centuries?

Casting coins, unless you decrease a lot the melting point of metals, will require a lot of wood or charcoal, and also good quality iron moulds, as a bronze mould will melt as well. So following the historical record and the example coins shown in the Guide, the Kralorelans are the only ones to cast coins. 

Thinking back, the problem with bronze coins in Glorantha is that you will need hardened bronze (is high tin bronze a thing in your Glorantha? It is in mine) for the dies or soft bronze (add some lead) for the coins. Or as indicated above, iron dies. Or magic, as we know Lokarnos magic can make wheels out of bulk gold.

[Akhôrahil]

(nvm, didn't realize how late I had come in.)

Edited July 13, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

59 minutes ago, JRE said:

That would fit with Jrustela and Umathela being silver exporters, as former Jrusteli power centers. But is the silver coming from mines, or recovered hoards in Jrusteli ruins, after they pillaged Glorantha's silver for four centuries?

Casting coins, unless you decrease a lot the melting point of metals, will require a lot of wood or charcoal, and also good quality iron moulds, as a bronze mould will melt as well. So following the historical record and the example coins shown in the Guide, the Kralorelans are the only ones to cast coins. 

The Lunars seem likely to have some rational process for their coinage?

And this being Glorantha, there's always the possibility of Fire magic for your melting needs. A suitably bound Fire elemental could do all the silver melting the whole empire needs?

Edited July 13, 2023 by Akhôrahil