Trade Center names for "Trade Routes of Glorantha" Map

[hkokko]

First attempt at having the route order in trade routes. This is only noting the bigger stops - there might be others. Genertelan caravan routes missing. Did some of the below already have names somewhere I did not notice. 

Trading Routes

• Great Coastal Route: Delerenkos Goan Dumanaba, the Floating City Kormani Tondiji Dindanko Garguna Tortrica Nikosdros

• Western Coast Route: Nikosdros Arvanor Garzanz

• Coastal Maslo Route: Delerenkos Westel

• Outer Maslo Route: Tondiji Westel

• Teleos Route: Tondiji Iskisdar Dosakayo

• Jrustela Route: Nikosdros Crandess Noloswal

• Jolar Caravan Route: Garguna Jolar

• Lesser Kralorelan Route: Dosakayo Lur Nop

• Northern East Isles Route: Lur Nop Champaya

• Southern East Isles Route: Yanchi Champaya

• Outer East Isles Route: Champaya Mirivarea Dalanamadury Lugash check order

• Lesser Coastal Route: Noloswal Sog City
• Great Coastal Route: Noloswal Handra Nochet Dosakayo

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, JRE said:

Salt traveled surprisingly far in Antiquity, but that will always will be away from the coasts.

Not necessarily. Not every climate is suitable for salt gardening, and not every coast will have sufficient salinity. If you add a coastal industry requiring salt, you will have salt transport to the coasts, or across the seas from coasts with more accessible salt. Not relevant for Glorantha, though.

When discussing the international trade going through Sartar and Dragon Pass, Jeff dismissed salt as a regionally traded good without any long-distance relevance (at least in Dragon Pass). This is why that may be reasonable:

Central Genertela has access to salt deposits from the Storm Age flood in the places surrounding the lands of Kethaela, Kerofinela and Saird that were defended by the Storm Gods. Quite a bit of that lies in Prax, Dagori Inkarth and Balazar where the Aroka Sea separated the Storm Lands from Genert's Garden, with enterprising traders able to dig for profits if they include the local natives.

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Not necessarily. Not every climate is suitable for salt gardening, and not every coast will have sufficient salinity. If you add a coastal industry requiring salt, you will have salt transport to the coasts, or across the seas from coasts with more accessible salt. Not relevant for Glorantha, though.

When discussing the international trade going through Sartar and Dragon Pass, Jeff dismissed salt as a regionally traded good without any long-distance relevance (at least in Dragon Pass). This is why that may be reasonable:

Central Genertela has access to salt deposits from the Storm Age flood in the places surrounding the lands of Kethaela, Kerofinela and Saird that were defended by the Storm Gods. Quite a bit of that lies in Prax, Dagori Inkarth and Balazar where the Aroka Sea separated the Storm Lands from Genert's Garden, with enterprising traders able to dig for profits if they include the local natives.

This implies thar for salt "regionally traded" includes, for example, Prax to Sartar or Balazar to Imther.  

And implies that Heortland to Sartar is also likely, as it is no more distant than Prax.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[Erol of Backford]

On 7/21/2023 at 12:01 PM, Joerg said:

Central Genertela has access to salt deposits from the Storm Age flood in the places surrounding the lands of Kethaela, Kerofinela and Saird that were defended by the Storm Gods. Quite a bit of that lies in Prax, Dagori Inkarth and Balazar where the Aroka Sea separated the Storm Lands from Genert's Garden, with enterprising traders able to dig for profits if they include the local natives.

We had discussed that Backford would likely have a good number of wallers farming salt pans or potentially could. It may export a good bit of pink salt as the Syphon runs from the sea upstream into the Print, its an idea location in our Glorantha. The Seapolis map TotRM 17 p.09 also shows some salt pans at the NE section of the city and so it's also likely that along the coasts where salt pans could be made and harvested, without too much interruption for the adjacent sea there would be potential salt export. Additionally Karse would also have some tidal flats nearby where salt would be farmed.

With Nochet being the largest trade hub most local trade ports around the Mirrorsea Bay would be integrated. I could see some traders circling the Bay continuously (less the stormiest seasons) just moving goods. Its almost like someone could easily develop a trade game like Great Western Trail but its focus would be the Mirrorsea Bay

Most places that exported salt would also fish and or oceanic goods I am guessing, there was a note somewhere about Sora Goodseller's caravan IIRC where they noted some traders would remove sections of the Building Wall and sell it far away for coral? I suppose there are shysters in all societies?

Sorry if off topic.

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

I completely agree about Backford.

Also in general about trade over tbe Mirrors each/ Choralinthor Bay.  A unified Holy Country with efficient water transportation in its center could easily become a common market with all the prosperity that implies.  And the Holy Country fragmenting because of Belintar's death plus Lunar invasion, implies an economic recession.  Throw in piracy and you get hard times.

Nevertheless the trade patterns should  persist despite variations in volume.

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I could see some traders circling the Bay continuously (less the stormiest seasons) just moving goods. Its almost like someone could easily develop a trade game like Great Western Trail but its focus would be the Mirrorsea Bay

This would have been the natural trade route from the Closing until Belintar's arrival. Even with Belintar's arrival, that circulation (both clockwise and counterclockwise) would have continued. What did change after Belintar's arrival was the construction of the Fish Roads - spokes centered on the hub of the City of Wonders. Now trade also began passing through that hub, and in its heyday perhaps even oared ships could traverse those roads (not to mention caravan trains passing under the sea). 

The Opening changed that. For the first time in centuries fleets sailed beyond that little circuit. Greater profit and more variety of goods would have shifted the focus of sea captains out of the Mirrorsea and into longer sailing ventures - even after the Wolf Pirates first appeared. It also changed Nochet from a large, significant city in the trade circle, to a metropolis surpassing all the others (though Karse remains a key station in the route to Dragon Pass and the Lunar Empire). The ones cut out of the circle were likely Leskos/Durengard, Seapolis, Rhigos, and Storos. They still have trade, but certainly diminished.

[Erol of Backford]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Fish Roads

Not a fan at all, we don't have them in our Glorantha, might as well have Feldici flying machines and what not like the old cartoon, the Jetsons. No Sir, not in a bronze age setting!?

 

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

They still have trade, but certainly diminished.

Or not. The Opening would have done just that, opened more distant markets, locally diminished maybe but for sure more demand further out from the Mirrorsea Bay. (or so we are thinking).

After the opening, the ships would in lieu of taking everything to Notchet and then to an overland route, would simply be an additional stop on the way out of the Bay. Goods a cheaper by not being taken to Notchet with increased handling and transport.

Either way it'll work increase/decrease but no on the fish roads, at least for us.

[JRE]

The ships required for overseas trading are quite different from the coastal coursers, so I expect the coastal trade continues. The main difference for me is that with the large population shift to Nochet rather than alternaticg clockwise and counterclockwise trade around the bay, now they are all going to Nochet, and then returning with exotic goods, so the bay is in two halves, mostly Rhigos-Nochet and back, and Karse --Nochet and back. Their relationship with the Manirian road and the Sartar route I think keeps the two of them still going strong, though not at the same level as Nochet. You cannot lose an overseas trade you never had. But yes, the new trade direction and the loss of the fish roads has probably crippled the other local trade centers in the Holy Country, but that is some of the people who have flocked to Nochet in the last thirty years. 

[Erol of Backford]

13 hours ago, JRE said:

The ships required for overseas trading are quite different from the coastal coursers, so I expect the coastal trade continues.

We were thinking the coastal trade would actually be invigorated as local wares no longer need to go to Nochet to go west over the land route...

Where would we see the estimated change in the size of Nochet from say 1580 in 10 year increments? That we didn't think on, possibly Nochet would absorb most of the locale surplus trade goods just do to its size increase.

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Where would we see the estimated change in the size of Nochet from say 1580 in 10 year increments?

At the moment, nowhere. 

However, from the article in the Well of Daliath, you'll note the following: 

"Nochet has grown tremendously, rapidly growing from 20,000 people to over 100,000 in little more than a generation."

At the start those would have been all Esrolian. By 1621, you have 70k Esrolians. If you figure a generation is roughly 20 years, I'd say that the majority of that growth occurs 1582-1602.

There are 20k Heortlings in Nochet - most would have come in the period 1590-1613. Partly from new opportunities, partly tribal/clan feuds, partly the Lunar wars.

There are ~10k immigrants from the West, the East, Pamaltela, and the Lunar Empire. I think most of these would have come in the period 1590-1600 after the Kralori disaster and the spread of regular sea trade.

Then there are some additional assorted arrivals such as the Caladralanders which might have occurred any time, but probably after the Manirian Road was eclipsed by the sea trade (likely 1590-1600).

[JRE]

I am missing in your list Sartarite refugees, or would you include them among the Heortlings? They are culturally similar but they probably have different internal feuds, and many will probably leave after 1628. That would include a sizable (for Ducks) number of Duck refugees from the Duck Hunt. Those would not be very keen to return to Sartar and those neighbours that betrayed them. That interests me because one of the characters in my game is one of such Ducks, while the other is a true cosmopolitan Nochet boy (a self promoting historian, a LM godtalker and Issaries initiate, so we are discussing where he stands among the LM factions). Character creation was over one year ago, but we are discussing how to integrate Nochet more in their back history.

I would also expect a second Esrolian wave during the abandonment of the city of Wonders and with Greymane raids, as the city brings safety compared to the countryside.

As well, we should have a Nolos and Pasos influx after 1621, but that may be too early to show in 1623, but will surely be there in 1626. Similarly with hunger refugees from the Long Winter, but those  will leave the city when the situation normalizes. 

People probably are still traumatized in 1626, after war, famine, civil war and a long siege, but going forward the biggest problem will probably be "only" the pirates, together with Argrath's request for help against the Lunars.

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, JRE said:

I am missing in your list Sartarite refugees, or would you include them among the Heortlings?

By Heortlings I meant both Sartarites and folk from Heortland.

4 hours ago, JRE said:

I would also expect a second Esrolian wave during the abandonment of the city of Wonders and with Greymane raids, as the city brings safety compared to the countryside.

Yes, more would have arrived in those years, and some seeking shelter from Wolf Pirates after 1616 as well.

4 hours ago, JRE said:

we should have a Nolos and Pasos influx after 1621, but that may be too early to show in 1623, but will surely be there in 1626.

I have those arriving ca.1625-6 - just in time to add into the mix of a Hero Wars era campaign. They will mostly settle outside the walls in Meldektown.