Trade Center names for "Trade Routes of Glorantha" Map

[hkokko]

HI

Has somebody gathered these already.  Great trade centres are named but for some of the others Major / Regional ones I have trouble of selecting the correct ones. 

[metcalph]

Fronela: Sog City.

Seshnela:  Nolos

Ralios:  Kustria, Estal and Syran (guesstimate)

Maniria:  Handra.

Kethaela:  Nochet.

Dragon Pass: Furthest and Boldhome.

Peloria: Elz Ast, Raibanth and Mirin's Cross (Raibanth could have been Good Shore but that's not large enough for a major trade center IMO).  Palbar.

Kralorela:  Lur Nop and Jangi-Shar.

Teshnos: Dosakayo.

Jrustela: Crandress.

Teleos: Iskisdar.

Umathea: Garzanz, Arvanor, Nikosdras and Tortirica.

Fonrit:  Garguna, Dindanko, Tondiji, Kormani, Dunmanaba, Goan and Delerenkos (possibly).

Maslo: Westela and Charth (according to the text, this is rarely visited by othsiders.  Yanchi is more probable).

Eastern Isles: Champaya, Mirivarea, Dalanamadury and Lugash.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, hkokko said:

Has somebody gathered these already.  Great trade centres are named but for some of the others Major / Regional ones I have trouble of selecting the correct ones. 

For the Holy Country-Dragon Pass-Lunar Empire line through central Genertela, the main trade centers from south to north will be:

Nochet - Karse - Boldhome - Furthest - Mirin's Cross - Jillaro - Raibanth - Glamour

(There are other stopping points along that route, but those will pick up most of the regional trade along the way.)

[M Helsdon]

The Manirian Road runs from the cities of Safelster, the caravans gathering at Drom, to Rhigos in Esrolia.

Edited July 19, 2023 by M Helsdon

[jajagappa]

1 minute ago, M Helsdon said:

The Manirian Road runs from the cities of Safelster to Rhigos.

And then by short road/ship to Nochet.

[M Helsdon]

Just now, jajagappa said:

And then by short road/ship to Nochet.

True, but Rhigos is the eastern terminus of the Manirian Road and once surpassed Nochet in size and wealth.

[JRE]

In Ralios it is the control of the rivers which drives trade, so although they were declining with the Manirian Road, the rise of the Wolf Pirates has renewed the importance of Galin / Drom. I agree with the other three, though I think Estal is mostly intra-Safelster trade, rather than international trade, as the river Jrimb does not have the reach of the others. The Kustria / Galin alliance reinforces this, and it will become more important as Safelster faces problems in the future trading through the Tanier river in the face of growing Seshnelan agression.

[dumuzid]

When you sail up the Janube from Sog, Galastar is the last major river port before the Sweet Sea

[AlHazred]

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

Fronela: Sog City.

Seshnela:  Nolos

Ralios:  Kustria, Estal and Syran (guesstimate)

Maniria:  Handra.

Kethaela:  Nochet.

Dragon Pass: Furthest and Boldhome.

Peloria: Elz Ast, Raibanth and Mirin's Cross (Raibanth could have been Good Shore but that's not large enough for a major trade center IMO).  Palbar.

Kralorela:  Lur Nop and Jangi-Shar.

Teshnos: Dosakayo.

Jrustela: Crandress.

Teleos: Iskisdar.

Umathea: Garzanz, Arvanor, Nikosdras and Tortirica.

Fonrit:  Garguna, Dindanko, Tondiji, Kormani, Dunmanaba, Goan and Delerenkos (possibly).

Maslo: Westela and Charth (according to the text, this is rarely visited by othsiders.  Yanchi is more probable).

Eastern Isles: Champaya, Mirivarea, Dalanamadury and Lugash.

Elder Wilds: Gonn Orta's Castle (possibly)

I mean, he can't only trade with Joh Mith...

[Squaredeal Sten]

12 minutes ago, AlHazred said:

Elder Wilds: Gonn Orta's Castle (possibly)

I mean, he can't only trade with Joh Mith...

Indeed. It's clear in Griifin Mountain that Gonn Orta and his smaller giants trade regularly for food, and they keep many items for other trade. 

Also that he has a monopoly on direct trade between Prax and the Elder Wilds.  I doubt that caravans pass through Gonn Orta's castle.  They just pass to it.

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

How about sea routes between Genertela and Pamaltela?  Would you go more directly south avoiding Magasta's Pool, or via the East Iskes to make sure you avoid it?  In the first case a storm or navigational error can take you down, down to the Chaosium, in the second case the Isles are known breeding grounds for pirates.

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling and capitalization

[hkokko]

Seshnela: Probably Noloswal (as that is the city)

[M Helsdon]

18 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

How about sea routes between Genertela and Pamaltela?  Would you go more directly south avoiding Magasta's Pool, or via the East Iskes to make sure you avoid it?  I. The first case a storm or navigational error can take you down, down to the Chaosium, in the second case the Isles are known breeding grounds for Pirates.

 

The Guide to Glorantha weather chapter includes maps that show sailing routes.

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

True, but Rhigos is the eastern terminus of the Manirian Road and once surpassed Nochet in size and wealth.

Yes, but that was 2+ generations ago, and Nochet has since increased population by 5X and likely wealth by an even greater factor. It will naturally draw Manirian trade goods to it for exchange with goods coming from Dragon Pass and the Lunar Empire. 

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, dumuzid said:

When you sail up the Janube from Sog, Galastar is the last major river port before the Sweet Sea

With the Opening, that trade traffic can then move to the Poralistor and go via Aldog, Zern, Dendeno, and some minor stops before reaching Joranit and Elz-Ast and then up the Oslir to Yuthuppa, Good Shore, and finally Glamour.

[M Helsdon]

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, but that was 2+ generations ago, and Nochet has since increased population by 5X and likely wealth by an even greater factor. It will naturally draw Manirian trade goods to it for exchange with goods coming from Dragon Pass and the Lunar Empire. 

True, but the goods will travel via Rhigos and be subject to tolls there....  It's likely that there's one of the 52 Tombs of Castelain at Rhigos.

[jajagappa]

8 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

True, but the goods will travel via Rhigos and be subject to tolls there....  It's likely that there's one of the 52 Tombs of Castelain at Rhigos.

Of course! It won't bypass it, but for some/many goods it becomes less the terminus and just the final waystop before Nochet.

[M Helsdon]

47 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Of course! It won't bypass it, but for some/many goods it becomes less the terminus and just the final waystop before Nochet.

It's interesting looking at the map of roads in Esrolia; I suspect that some of the Manirian Road is actually by river, and its final stretch is via the Gorphing River, or at least follows her river valley. In what I believe is one of Greg's maps, the river is navigable (by boats, barges?) for a long way to the west, even further upstream than Kithma. Whilst a road does follow the river for some distance, river trade is, at least downstream, faster and cheaper than carrying goods on mule back. I would expect goods to then be transhipped to Nochet and to Karse.

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, AlHazred said:

Elder Wilds: Gonn Orta's Castle (possibly)

I mean, he can't only trade with Joh Mith...

The subject is the map in the Guide p469.  Goon Orta's castle does not correspond to one of the unlabelled trade centers.

[Darius West]

On 7/19/2023 at 8:14 PM, metcalph said:

Fonrit:  Garguna, Dindanko, Tondiji, Kormani, Dunmanaba, Goan and Delerenkos (possibly).

Doesn't Fonrit seem a bit over-blessed with trade centers?

[dumuzid]

That's part of the nature of the place.  Lots of big, wealthy cities with highly productive suburban and rural surrounding areas, plus a tendency to specialize local production towards the crafts supported by one or another Glorious One cult and a lack of strong superregional authority (with the possible exception of Golden Kareeshtu), will tend to create a scattering of several mid-sized to large economic centers rather than a few very big ones.

[JRE]

According to the guide, Fonrit has over 10 million humans. The Holy Country has 3 million. The Lunar Empire around 8 million. The whole Western culture, including Seshnela, Fronela, Safelster and colonies does not reach 8 million. No other area is so densely populated with an active trading urban culture. Even isolationist Kralorela is over one million short and has more surface. Our Genertela centric view may ignore them, but it should be the trading powerhouse.

[hkokko]

Regarding the import export table on the same chapter in GtG  - where would these regions export these products to. The rest of the goods I can extrapolate.  Timber and Salt possibly only nearby regions? Tea, glass, glassware and parchment to "civilised" regions? 
 

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Edited July 21, 2023 by hkokko

[metcalph]

8 minutes ago, hkokko said:

Regarding the import export table on the same chapter in GtG  - where would these regions export these products to. The rest of the goods I can extrapolate.  Timber and Salt possibly only nearby regions? Tea, glass, glassware and parchment to "civilised" regions? 
 

---

 

I just assume they trade such goods to the civilized world at large.  Thus even in Sog City, you would get copper from Dragon Pass, Dye from Kralorela, Glass from Teshnos (more highfalutin' that the Ralian garbage), Incense from Teleos etc at the local markets.  

[JRE]

You need to keep in mind the trade transport and the neighbouring areas, and where will it join the general international trade. The Wastes exports animal leather. It starts by foot, so the options are Kralorela, and likely an ongoing trade in the border for metal objects and other sundries, Dragon Pass, where it will enter into the international sea trade hubs and the internal Lunar Empire trade, and Pent, that does not seem a good trade partner, being normally self sufficient.

If you follow the Dragon Pass Copper, it could go north to the Lunar Empire, East to Prax and the Wastes, or South, where it is packaged with the Holy Country's own copper so the Holy Country ports become the main source of copper worldwide.

Salt traveled surprisingly far in Antiquity, but that will always will be away from the coasts.

Teshnos glassware will be common in the East and in the Holy Country, where it has probably replaced the Ralian glass, as the Manirian road does not seem the right environment for glass transport, but the Ralians still sell strongly in the West. The fall of Nolos and Pasos probably mean most Genertelan glass traveling to Pamaltela is now from Teshnos, though carried by non-Teshnos traders.

As for timber, it may well be specialized timber, whether tall straight redwoods for masts, hardwoods for shipbuilding or luxury furniture, so it may sell far away. It happened with Norwegian firs or mahogany. But it will not be Errinoru elves who trade it, but Fonritian traders.

At the end of the day, what decides where you go is what trade hub you can reach. Despite their efforts with Corflu and Karse, most of the Lunar international trade passes through Nochet, but that also means they can sell and buy all over Glorantha, but with a severe markup (buying) or down (selling) when compared to the native Esrolians.

Gives a different version for The Lunar policies in the south, and it makes you wonder if the death of Orlanth was for religious reasons, but the death of Ernalda was purely economic.