Daka Fal question

[ChrisWentWhere]

I am planning a sort of heist scenario which will be defended in part by a Spirit Guardian as the item they are after is in the family shrine.   

Could a Daka Fal initiate use Command (Cult Spirit) in this situation or would that only work with a Cult Spirit of their own ancestor tradition?    

And conversely would there be any comeback (other than all the usual ones of course...) on that initiate from Daka Fal?

As I see it each tradition worships their own ancestors and what they do to another tradition's shrine / spirit guardian is sort of up to them. But that would also imply that they would have no hold over a cult spirit from a different tradition, so the Command (Cult Spirit) would not work...        

Cheers

Chris 

[JRE]

First of all, I suppose the Spirit Guardian is actually a guardian spirit, as described in the bestiary, and not a spirit affected by the Spirit Guardian spell, as that means a shaman is looking from the spirit's perception and the spirit has access to all the shaman's spells and MPs. A discorporate shaman could be there shortly to help the spirit, making the encounter much more complex.

So, if it is a spirit used as a guardian, if I have a Daka Fali in the group, my first decision is whether the spirit should be considered as a ghost, and subject to Free Ghost, or not. The rules say that ancestral spirits behave like ghosts, but it is not clear if that is enough to make Ghost spells work on them. Assuming they do not have the spell, or you consider a bound spirit of the death somehow is not considered a ghost (possibly because it is there voluntarily, and not compelled or bound), then I agree that unless it is also an ancestor of the Daka Fali, Command Cult Spirit should not work, as Daka Fali magic is focused on ancestors, and that requires both recognize that link. 

I would not use tradition with Daka Fali, it should be family, or at least ancestry what separates one group from another.

Of course the further back you go to find a powerful ancestor, more people will have them as an ancestor as well, which opens the MGF possibility that such a guardian may be their ancestor and be willing to discuss conditions. 

[ChrisWentWhere]

Cheers that all makes sense, yes you are right I did mean a guardian spirit and not the Spirit Guardian spell. 

I did not know that about ancestral spirits, that actually makes it simpler in a way and it means that how I feel about different families (noted: not traditions) not being able to command each others cult spirits is retained. I think that also effectively answers my second question (that it is open season on other families). The character has Free Ghost!   

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

by the way don't know if your Daka Fali is or not a shaman. But a shaman doesn't need a spell to manage it (well... if enough powerful)

 

for me the Daka Fall cult should be seen as a pattern: few worship Daka Fal (they don"t command anybody) but their family/ clan / community ancestors

 

[ChrisWentWhere]

In this case not a shaman. 

[JRE]

Daka Fal, as Grandfather (also Grandmother, in certain cultures) Mortal, is the ancestor of all* humans. So he is the ur-ancestor, the end point in the ascendancy chain. So they are the only sure common ancestor we have, which is why the cult is named for him. I also consider you may have adoption and dispossession from the family, so it is not only a matter of blood, but ritual and belonging.

*In Glorantha all is a loaded term, as you are bound to find someone who is different from the "all". Such as the hsunchen that are actually animals that took human shape, though they have mixed enough with the original humans that most will still have Daka Fal as their ancestor, so they can access their magic.

[g33k]

There is also this issue -- Daka Fal is the Judge of the Dead.

As such, DF offers some degree of authority over all ancestral spirits.  YGWV, and MGF, so this doesn't definitively fix the "truth," but it gives a rationale for how/why DF offers "Command Cult Spirit" that affects all ancestor-cults, even if the caster has no known ancestry within the family... which option is the MGF option?

(Honestly, tho, I'd find DF awfully limited if they could only CCS within their own familial ancestor-cult, same-same as every other ancestral-cult elder)

Edited August 2, 2023 by g33k

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

There is also this issue -- Daka Fal is the Judge of the Dead.

that's an import point (even if I have not the same conclusion 🙂 )

For me, Daka Fal is not anymore Grandfather mortal (aka family member, first ancestor, what you want) because Grandfather mortal is dead, in the same way that Humakt is not Orlanth's brother any more. Death severs something in both case.

That doesn't mean people don't remember what/who were these entities before they meet Death.

Just that, now, they have not all the properties they had before. But they have some new (there is a new deal between Orlanth and Humakt, there is a new deal between Daka Fal and mortals).

 

then if I meet a shaman who is dedicated to a family, or a community XXX. I will know him/her as the shaman of the XXX ancestors, not as a shaman of Daka Fal

In the other and, If I meet an initiate of Daka Fal (in my glorantha) this person is not dedicated to a family, ancestor, or any community worship:

This weird one  is a kind of judge of spirits or someone applying Daka Fal's judgement (who said "judge dreed" ? no just  "judge dead", but you got the idea).

Do they exist ? not sure at all. But if yes, well this initiate would have generic rune spells for a lot of spirits. Is there usefull to have these spell when you are shaman ? don't know. You can manage them with your shaman powers 

Is it easy to follow this way when you are not a shaman ? mm probably not, you are too weak for your "targets".

So that is most a question of "devotion", than a question of power.

 

[soltakss]

On 8/1/2023 at 1:25 PM, ChrisWentWhere said:

Could a Daka Fal initiate use Command (Cult Spirit) in this situation or would that only work with a Cult Spirit of their own ancestor tradition?    

If the spirit is one of their own family then sure, that's what it is for.

However, if the spirit is from a different family it gets more complicated. In theory, an ancestor is an ancestor, whether it is your ancestor or not. An example of this is in RQ2 Cults of Prax where Bituran Varosh trades for Summon Ancestor with some Baboons, clearly they are not his relatives and their ancestors are not his ancestors, but he can use the spell to summon his ancestors. That implies that Command Cult Spirit works on other people's ancestors.

So, I would probably say that it works if the Player can justify it well enough.

 

[Akhôrahil]

On 8/5/2023 at 12:15 PM, soltakss said:

So, I would probably say that it works if the Player can justify it well enough.

I would also certainly allow it for all ghosts. Handling ghosts is one of the major points of Daka Fal!

[ChrisWentWhere]

So presumably a DK initiate could cast summon ancestor and if it is malign as they are 30% of the time cast Command Cult Spirit?

[Zit]

I think that it is the main purpose of the spell.

[Akhôrahil]

17 minutes ago, ChrisWentWhere said:

So presumably a DK initiate could cast summon ancestor and if it is malign as they are 30% of the time cast Command Cult Spirit?

Sure.