Hrestoli in Tanisor

[Joerg]

In the thread on Rikard the Tiger-hearted, Jeff said:

5 hours ago, Jeff said:

So what we know is that he was a Hrestoli, not a Rokari - a heretic that was exiled from Tanisor

Meaning Rikard was an adherent to the Seshnegi form of Hrestolism, similar to that of the Castle Coast and various Safelstran heresies rather than Siglat's New Idealist Hrestolism.

What does it mean to be a Hrestoli in late 16th or early 17th century Tanisor? It seems to me that only talar caste Tanisorans have a chance at attaining a man-of-all status, with maybe one or two exceptional horali, outwardly little different from the Rokari.

We know that there are strong Hrestoli sympathies among the Pithdarans, who ironically provide many watchers and lesser wizards for the Rokari sect. Controlling the police from within?

[metcalph]

In terms of becoming a  Man-of-All (there's other forms of Hrestolism but this is the most blatant), there's a difference in my opinion between acting as a noble and legally being recognized as a noble.  The former is required for a Man-of-All status, the latter is not.  Therefore one can become a Man-of-All in Seshnela without being part of the establishment.  I do feel that to attain the Talar caste, one has to be an actual leader of men.

I don't believe the Wizards exert a policing function in Seshnegi society.  They generally stay within their haunts, collecting the magic that is owed to them and casting the spells requested of them by the nobility.  The Watchers and the like are principally concerned with policing the Wizards themselves to see whether they are engaging in Right Thought and abjuring forbidden philosophies (ie Hrestolism, Arkatism, God Learnerism) that will cause magical disasters if left unchecked.

The Nobles on the other hand do concern themselves with the spiritual welfare of the subjects.  If their subjects do not follow the minimal standards of prescribed caste behaviour or fail to turn over the required magics to the wizards, then that's a problem for the Nobles.  But this doesn't require that everybody serving the Nobles be Rokari, merely that as many of them as practical. 

So a Seshnegi Noble meets a Man-of-All would be more like an Orlanthi King dealing with a Storm Bull warrior (or perhaps even a Gagarthi).  Depending on his open-mindedness, he might be willing to retain the Man-of-All's services or send men to encourage him to move along.  But to denounce the Man-of-All to the Wizards?  Most Wizards have better things to deal with than to chase after a deranged madman and think it's the job of the nobility to sort out.  So there's little incentive to ensure total conformity when the Nobles can live with some level of heterodoxy within their lands.  

That doesn't preclude some Watcher in Leplain having a watching brief to track all the Men-of-All within the Kingdom and casting magical curses at the more powerful ones.  The principal concern of this Watcher is not that the Men-of-All are roaming the Kingdom but that they might be corrupting the local Wizards.  So if a Wizard has a noteworthy encounter with a Man-of-All, the Watcher in Leplain would be more concerned about questioning the Wizard to ensure he hasn't fallen into error rather than hunting down the Man-of-All.

 

 

[Jape_Vicho]

Correct me if I'm wrong but, isn't the basis for becoming a man-of-all to have experienced Joy? Joy being a sort of mysthical connection to the Invisible God? The way I saw things is that, unless you have a whole state apparatus designed to elevate ppl to men-of-all status, a thing that has only happened in Loskalm and very recently, becoming a man-of-all was about joining a usually isolated monastic community in which people of all castes learned from each other as for to master many different tasks, and experienced Joy through it. 

From what I've read, men of all are a mix of some Talar, much Horali, a bit of Zzaburi, and very very little bit of Dronar. 

Due to the radical caste system of the Rokari, it would make sense (to me at least) that the heretical Hrestoli of modern Tanisor were either malcontent peasants who band together in secret monastic societies which claim that all malkioni should be men of all, or idealistic Talars (mainly second sons and the like) who despise the oppressive system and want to commune with the peasants in some way. Those two kinds of groups would probably be very different and not have much connection. Dronar rebels would only work with other dronars as typical underground sects, and wannabe knights would just be running around, helping towns with their problems, being friendly with the populace and so on. No doubt some seshnegi now undertake the difficult journey towards Loskalm, the fabled land where castes have been abolished and every man can live to their full capabilities... Only for those that survive the journey to find an bleak and cold land beset by rabid and warmongering barbarians...

I think we don't know why was Rikard exiled, but there is no lack of reasons to exile a wayward noble in an ancient state. Hrestoli proselitism is probably more than enough to grant ostracism if you're a talar, and a death sentence if you're anything else.

[Richard S.]

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/notes-on-hrestol-and-the-invisible-god/ seems to imply that being a man-of-all requires initiating into Hrestol's cult, which allows you to break caste laws without losing your Rightness so long as the reason is just. I'm guessing that changing castes is something that can be handled within the Invisible God cult, so Loskalm's system can exist without everyone being Hrestol initiates.

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I'm guessing that changing castes is something that can be handled within the Invisible God cult, so Loskalm's system can exist without everyone being Hrestol initiates.

Quote

During the Syndics Ban, the miraculous King Siglat achieved radical transformation of Loskalmi society, overcoming the caste restrictions and establishing a successful idealistic commonwealth where each citizen performs the role best suited for them in harmony and justice. — GtG, p. 203

I just assumed (with no evidence): rightness schmightness — no castes (just pro tempore occupations); no caste special abilities; no problem. Worrying about “rightness” is for the old Hrestoli. Squares!

Following your link, doesn’t this sound a lot like illumination?

Quote

He taught how to achieve eternal Joy through unity with the Invisible God. Hrestol shook off the old limitations of caste that Zzabur demanded, in favour of the deeper truths of the world, and became the first Man of All …

Initiates of Hrestol do not lose RIGHTNESS when they violate caste restrictions in the service of Justice …

Ultimately, the reason people follow Hrestol’s path is the same reason Hrestol himself did – in order to make sure Justice is not sacrificed to Caste.

“Your stupid rules don’t matter to me, but I won’t detect ‘wrong’ to your enforcers.” But — as far as I know — there is not a Gloranthaphile moral panic about the Men of All.

Edited September 19, 2023 by mfbrandi
trimmed whitespace

[Richard S.]

13 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

I just assumed (with no evidence): rightness schmightness — no castes (just pro tempore occupations); no caste special abilities; no problem. Worrying about “rightness” is for the old Hrestoli. Squares!

I'm pretty sure they're still part of the Invisible God's "cult", given that they're still considered a Malkioni sect. They still believe in castes being the basis for civilization, they're just more lenient on which one people end up in.

20 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Following your link, doesn’t this sound a lot like illumination?

Not really, no. Hrestoli can only act out of line if they're acting Justly (protecting the weak, fighting monsters, self-sacrifice, etc.). Justice doesn't remove the restrictions of caste, it just reveals a deeper law that can supersede them in times of need. Illumination is far more liberating.

[mfbrandi]

32 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

I'm pretty sure they're still part of the Invisible God's "cult", given that they're still considered a Malkioni sect. They still believe in castes being the basis for civilization, they're just more lenient on which one people end up in.

Maybe, but caste and occupation are not the same thing are they, else “the four caste occupations” (GtG, p. 51, left sidebar) would be tautologous, right? Occupations are supposedly appropriate to “castes” — really Varna, hence (albeit different) colour-coding and only four — not identical with them. The GtG culture write-up for Loskalm — IIRC (or read carefully enough in the first place) — seems to eschew terms like “dronars” and “horali”.

Whether it is easy or hard, surely the point is to leave caste or at the very least caste restrictions behind (and achieve Nirvana or Moksha), no? You can do anything, and when you have done everything (or achieved morality and wisdom), then …

Doesn’t sound like thinking castes are the basis of civilization to me — without caste restrictions, what work are castes doing to structure society? — but I usually have things upside down and inside out, so maybe you are right.

Why must all Malkioni sects hold with caste? Not all Christians hold with the trinity. Some Malkioni may hold that other Malkioni are not “real” Malkioni, but we don’t have to. We are resplendent in diversity.

[John Biles]

My understanding of Loksalm is like this.

In an ideal world, everyone would work their way up through the castes and become Men-of-All.

But most people won't make it - they'll rise to some point and stay there, because mastering all the castes in order to be free of them is hard.

Indeed, I expect a majority stay in the dronar caste because they don't want to be a soldier. 

But one of the most important things about the system is that everyone, even the kids of talars, experience how the dronars live.  And that helps make a better society where the rulers don't have the kind of cognitive bubble that most rulers have. 

(And there are no child rulers, one of the great banes of civilization.)

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

So let's get down to practical matters, and go from absract principle to the actual society:

Who are the gatekeepers who decide whether a person is privileged to be a Man of All?

Edited September 20, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Who are the gatekeepers who decide whether a person is privileged to be a Man of All?

It is slightly complicated (GtG, p. 203), but I guess the short answer is that the Men-of-All decide. It is an organisation — a monastic order — after all. Who gets to decide who works for IBM? IBM. (I make no comment on whether it is right, but it is not terribly surprising.)

In contrast, when it comes to silly caste occupation labels, self-identification will do:

• [E]very Loskalmi can identify himself as worker, soldier, wizard, or ruler; many strive to pass through the four caste occupations during their lifetime.
  — GtG, p. 48 (but repeated in at least two other places in almost the same words)

With guardians and philosopher-kings, I guess Loskalm is supposed to resemble somewhat Greece as Plato — long known to have been a big fan of the Shaolin Monastery — wished it to be.

[John Biles]

5 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

It is slightly complicated (GtG, p. 203), but I guess the short answer is that the Men-of-All decide. It is an organisation — a monastic order — after all. Who gets to decide who works for IBM? IBM. (I make no comment on whether it is right, but it is not terribly surprising.)

In contrast, when it comes to silly caste occupation labels, self-identification will do:

• [E]very Loskalmi can identify himself as worker, soldier, wizard, or ruler; many strive to pass through the four caste occupations during their lifetime.
  — GtG, p. 48 (but repeated in at least two other places in almost the same words)

With guardians and philosopher-kings, I guess Loskalm is supposed to resemble somewhat Greece as Plato — long known to have been a big fan of the Shaolin Monastery — wished it to be.

Given Plato was a wrestler before he was a philosopher, that fits.  Plato was the name he wrestled under, which meant Rock and I'm not joking.

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by John Biles

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, John Biles said:

My understanding of Loksalm is like this.

This thread is about the other Hrestoli, the Seshnelan variant which has been suppressed since the Battle on Asgolan Fields.

[mfbrandi]

8 hours ago, John Biles said:

Plato … which meant Rock and I'm not joking.

Surely, he was a wide boy (think ‘platypus’), rather than a piece of stone.

Edited September 21, 2023 by mfbrandi
monotreme example

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

This thread is about the other Hrestoli

Yeah, how did that happen? Did we accidentally post to the wrong thread — in which case: sorry — or did some comments get ported across from somewhere else?

[Joerg]

7 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Yeah, how did that happen? Did we accidentally post to the wrong thread — in which case: sorry — or did some comments get ported across from somewhere else?

Mainly because the presence of Hrestoli in Seshnela since the Rokari reforms has been downplayed by the source material, and perhaps because maybe not everybody links Siglat to Loskalm/Fronela.

Other than that, typical thread drift, and my attempt to get it back into the Tanier Valley.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Joerg

[Richard S.]

I don't have a definite quotation to back me up, but I think that the main difference with old Hrestolism compared to Rokarism would be that you could initiate to a caste other than your parents', and under certain circumstances you could move to an entirely different caste later in life (both probably requiring approval from the local Talar and/or Zzaburi). Of course there'd be more doctrinal differences such as all the stuff Rokar purged from the Abiding Book, but we really don't know what that all was. I feel that that's essentially what the Castle Coast practices, the freedom to initiate to any caste, something that'd be rather difficult in places controlled by Rokari.

The Cult of Hrestol itself I think existed more in parallel to Hrestolism rather than being an integral part. It might have been required in some way for someone to change castes, but initiates would be Men-of-All living in their monasteries or wandering around practicing Justice. The majority of Malkioni would respect them, but they wouldn't be a part of the cult themselves. There's probably a few initiates wandering around the Castle Coast still if I had to guess, but they'd not be very popular in Seshnela.

These are just educated guesses so take them as you will.

Edit: Considering Rokarism as a reaction to the Hrestolism of the God Learners, and the excesses it allowed, it's possible that Hrestoli doctrine is far more open on how much you're allowed to exploit the natural world, following with Hrestol's ideal of mortals making a world for themselves. The GLs freely exploited barbarian cults, ravaged the hero plane, and imo were pretty big "ends justify the means" people. Maybe beliefs like that are what Rikard was exiled for, thinking the Rokari were too conservative in trying to control the world. That and maybe trying to be a man-of-all.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Richard S.