Sorcery instead of Rune Magic in RQ:G

[Glacir]

In RQ3, some of the regions (Safelster and Jonatela, Kingdom of Ignorance) grant all characters access either to Divine Magic or to Sorcery. How would one adapt that into RQ:G ruleset?

I've been thinking of allowing sorcerous characters (= Malkioni/Arkati worshippers) to receive the benefits of Philosopher occupation from RQ:G (understanding of one Rune and one technique and three spells) instead of Rune Magic, and probably Philosopher skills instead of Cult skills, but that will probably caall for a need to create a specific occupation for dedicated sorcerer with access to more Runes and techniques, like Malkioni and Aeolian wizards described on p. 389 in RQ:G rulebook.

[metcalph]

23 minutes ago, Glacir said:

In RQ3, some of the regions (Safelster and Jonatela, Kingdom of Ignorance) grant all characters access either to Divine Magic or to Sorcery. How would one adapt that into RQ:G ruleset?

Most people (Malkioni included) use Rune or Spirit Magic.  The only people who learn and study sorcery are their wizards (ie the type of people covered by the Philosopher occupation in RQ;G)  If you think there should be a separate occupation to handle a full-time sorceror rather than one who muses about the nature of the cosmos, then go for it, I'm just not that familiar with the rules to number-crunch the occupation.

All Malkioni practice Rightness and Caste Magic.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/notes-on-hrestol-and-the-invisible-god/

No rules have been presented for them yet.  My guess is that they function similarly to shamanic gifts, except that the effects are more redolent of sorcery than spirit magic.  Most Malkioni have three points of rightness with leaders having five or more.

FIGHTER:

Ward against [weapon]: Each point adds two points of protection against damage from a chosen weapon.  Critical hits still bypass.

NOBLE:

Air of Authority:  Each point allows +10% in skill in all communication skills employed against those of lower castes.

WIZARD:

Arcane Attack: Each point adds two magic point to the magician's magic points towards overcoming an opponent's magic points when casting a spell.

FARMER:

Stoicism: Each point improves the caster's standard of living by one in his or her mind.  Thus destitute becomes poor etc.

 

 

[radmonger]

In RQ3, the idea was that in the West, all normal people used sorcery. This meant a single rule system had to handle folk magic, craft specialists, village priests and wizards. Opinions differ on how well that worked.

The current picture of how sorcery-dominated societies work using the rules is that the _ideal_ is that only Zzabur-caste wizards do magic, and they do so solely to support the rest of society. But everyone (except perhaps the Britihini) is living in a world of scarcity. There simply just aren't enough wizards to bless the crops, awe the kings enemies, shine the soldier's armor and lecture the peasants. So something has to give. Typically this comes down to  having peasants, warriors and sometimes nobles follow standard rune cults. Perhaps under a slightly different name, with some local variation.

When there are enough wizards, they do support something like pseudo-cults for the 4 castes, as in the post above.

The remaining issue is that coming up with a concept for a playable PC wizard is something that inherently needs a lot of support . The current sorcery rules are not going to naturally give you a 21 year old who belongs outside a monastery or library studying. One who is useful to the rest of the party without overshadowing them.

So until someone does that, they are best treated as a background detail in society, not adventurers.

Edited October 18, 2023 by radmonger

[Godlearner]

On 10/18/2023 at 5:55 AM, radmonger said:

The current picture of how sorcery-dominated societies work using the rules is that the _ideal_ is that only Zzabur-caste wizards do magic, and they do so solely to support the rest of society. But everyone (except perhaps the Britihini) is living in a world of scarcity. There simply just aren't enough wizards to bless the crops, awe the kings enemies, shine the soldier's armor and lecture the peasants. So something has to give. Typically this comes down to  having peasants, warriors and sometimes nobles follow standard rune cults. Perhaps under a slightly different name, with some local variation.

No, the current pocture is that most of this society use Spirit and Divine magic while  Zzabur-caste use sorcery above the rest.

[Richard S.]

27 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

No, the current pocture is that most of this society use Spirit and Divine magic while  Zzabur-caste use sorcery above the rest.

That's what radmonger said. The Zzaburi, however, would like it better if they were the only magic users and everyone else relied on them and didn't let gods and spirits muck up Malkion's ideal society. That's not going to happen though, except maybe in Loskalm for a few years, because of the complications of living in a world of mortals.

On 10/18/2023 at 3:46 AM, Glacir said:

In RQ3, some of the regions (Safelster and Jonatela, Kingdom of Ignorance) grant all characters access either to Divine Magic or to Sorcery. How would one adapt that into RQ:G ruleset?

I've been thinking of allowing sorcerous characters (= Malkioni/Arkati worshippers) to receive the benefits of Philosopher occupation from RQ:G (understanding of one Rune and one technique and three spells) instead of Rune Magic, and probably Philosopher skills instead of Cult skills, but that will probably caall for a need to create a specific occupation for dedicated sorcerer with access to more Runes and techniques, like Malkioni and Aeolian wizards described on p. 389 in RQ:G rulebook.

Sorcery typically replaces spirit magic instead of rune magic, since the former ties up your free INT and also uses MP. Full sorcerers, of course, prefer to only use sorcery, but mixed sorcerers are far more likely to use it alongside divine magic, which doesn't take up space in their brain and doesn't eat up their personal power as much. Also, base level sorcery is closer in power to spirit magic.

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, Richard S. said:

That's what radmonger said. The Zzaburi, however, would like it better if they were the only magic users and everyone else relied on them and didn't let gods and spirits muck up Malkion's ideal society. That's not going to happen though, except maybe in Loskalm for a few years, because of the complications of living in a world of mortals.

Loskalm has a greater number of people with entry levels in sorcery than anywhere else, with the mandatory basic knowledge to be acquired by Guardians preparing for Man-of-All qualification.

Ancestor worship (though maybe not with the exclusivity deal of Daka Fal initiation) would be wide-spread in Malkioni society, Whether this results in readily available battle magic is a different question, but it is a possiblity.

Sorcerers' interaction with spirits and minor deities may not be so different from shamanic-led spirit cults.

[soltakss]

On 10/18/2023 at 9:46 AM, Glacir said:

In RQ3, some of the regions (Safelster and Jonatela, Kingdom of Ignorance) grant all characters access either to Divine Magic or to Sorcery. How would one adapt that into RQ:G ruleset?

To be honest, I wouldn't bother. For me, Sorcery is dull and boring, it is too complex and doesn't really interest me.

Better to have Rune and Spirit Magic for most people, with Sorcerers using Sorcery.

[Glacir]

On 10/18/2023 at 12:55 PM, radmonger said:

The current picture of how sorcery-dominated societies work using the rules is that the _ideal_ is that only Zzabur-caste wizards do magic, and they do so solely to support the rest of society. But everyone (except perhaps the Britihini) is living in a world of scarcity. There simply just aren't enough wizards to bless the crops, awe the kings enemies, shine the soldier's armor and lecture the peasants. So something has to give. Typically this comes down to  having peasants, warriors and sometimes nobles follow standard rune cults. Perhaps under a slightly different name, with some local variation.

When there are enough wizards, they do support something like pseudo-cults for the 4 castes, as in the post above.

I understand how that could work for henotheists of Fronela, Ralios and Kethaela (especially if treating Arkati cults as Rune cults and not some philosophy schools or cabals teaching sorcery), but that feels kind of wrong for "true" Western societies. Both Rokari and Hrestoli as far as I remember forbid the veneration of "pagan gods", and Rokari forbid even the veneration of Ascended Masters, which means that for Seshnela you wouldn't even be able to disguise a Rune cult as a saint's cult, and commoners will have to do only with Spirit magic. 

Also, as Joerg said, 

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

Loskalm has a greater number of people with entry levels in sorcery than anywhere else, with the mandatory basic knowledge to be acquired by Guardians preparing for Man-of-All qualification.

[Joerg]

13 minutes ago, Glacir said:

I understand how that could work for henotheists of Fronela, Ralios and Kethaela (especially if treating Arkati cults as Rune cults and not some philosophy schools or cabals teaching sorcery), but that feels kind of wrong for "true" Western societies. Both Rokari and Hrestoli as far as I remember forbid the veneration of "pagan gods", and Rokari forbid even the veneration of Ascended Masters, which means that for Seshnela you wouldn't even be able to disguise a Rune cult as a saint's cult, and commoners will have to do only with Spirit magic.

In our recent episode of God Learners podcast, I use one of the three impromptu lore auction questions on just this topic. Check out the transcript, or listen to Jeff explaining how reality and an ideal society struggle to co-exist.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Glacir said:

I understand how that could work for henotheists of Fronela, Ralios and Kethaela (especially if treating Arkati cults as Rune cults and not some philosophy schools or cabals teaching sorcery), but that feels kind of wrong for "true" Western societies. Both Rokari and Hrestoli as far as I remember forbid the veneration of "pagan gods", and Rokari forbid even the veneration of Ascended Masters, which means that for Seshnela you wouldn't even be able to disguise a Rune cult as a saint's cult, and commoners will have to do only with Spirit magic. 

ROKARI:

"Not all Malkioni venerate Ascended Masters.  The Rokari view prayer to the Ascended Masters as barbaric superstition" Guide p51

"The Rokari do not offer sacrifice or worship to any gods except the Invisible God, but they do worship lesser beings such as Ascended Masters and other heroes."

Cults of Runequest: the Prosopaedia p106

"The New Hrestoli do not worship any god except the Invisible God and the Ascended Masters. Worship of anyone or anything else is an unforgivable crime."

Cults of Runequest: the Prosopaedia p89

A lot hinges on the precise meaning of venerate and prayer in the first quote.  Rather than work it out, I should just point out that the Rokari have numerous warrior societies who look like barely disguised hsunchen spirits.  So their capacity for forbidding anything is somewhat threadbare.  More importantly is their worship of Ancestors.  Consider the case of Aerlit who is Malkion's Father.  Is it lawful for a Rokari to worship him as a God or an Ancestor?  And if Aerlit's worship is permissible in some form or another then what of the other gods?

For the New Hrestoli, similar questions can be posed about the worship of Drona who has friends in Eurmal and a Boar God.