Distributions of Dragonnewts

[bronze]

Why most of Dragonnewts and other draconic creatures live in Kralorela, despite of historical significance of the Dragon Pass? After all, the Dragon Nest is located in the Dragon Pass, and that is why the Dragonkill did occur. Does the East contain a greater Nest? 

And what is the nature of the Void and otherworlds the True Dragons ultimately return by performing utuma? 

Edited October 20, 2023 by bronze

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, bronze said:

Does the East contain a greater Nest? 

Not just a greater Nest, but also a Dragon Emperor (i.e. the Emperor Godunya is also a True Dragon).

Some relevant notes here: Dragon People – The Well of Daliath (chaosium.com)

1 hour ago, bronze said:

And what is the nature of the Void and otherworlds the True Dragons ultimately return by performing utuma?

The primal stuff of Creation.

[soltakss]

22 hours ago, bronze said:

Why most of Dragonnewts and other draconic creatures live in Kralorela, despite of historical significance of the Dragon Pass? After all, the Dragon Nest is located in the Dragon Pass, and that is why the Dragonkill did occur. Does the East contain a greater Nest? 

For me, there were two Draconic centres in GodTime, Dragon Pass and Kralorela. They were equally as important. The Dragonewts of Dragon Pass had Inhuman Kings as their ruler, or end state, before the Inhuman King turned into a Dragon. The Dragonewts of Kralorela had the Dragon Emperor as their leader and their Rulers turned into Dragons without reaching the Inhuman King state.

22 hours ago, bronze said:

And what is the nature of the Void and otherworlds the True Dragons ultimately return by performing utuma? 

Nothingness, the Emptiness, the lack of everything, the Unknowable.

 

[bronze]

On 10/20/2023 at 6:50 AM, jajagappa said:

Not just a greater Nest, but also a Dragon Emperor (i.e. the Emperor Godunya is also a True Dragon).

Some relevant notes here: Dragon People – The Well of Daliath (chaosium.com)

The primal stuff of Creation.

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

For me, there were two Draconic centres in GodTime, Dragon Pass and Kralorela. They were equally as important. The Dragonewts of Dragon Pass had Inhuman Kings as their ruler, or end state, before the Inhuman King turned into a Dragon. The Dragonewts of Kralorela had the Dragon Emperor as their leader and their Rulers turned into Dragons without reaching the Inhuman King state.

Nothingness, the Emptiness, the lack of everything, the Unknowable.

Wondering why Kralorela has never managed to establish a world empire. After all, Orlanthi achieved it with much less. Is it due to development of Wyrmtongue? 

It is said the Void and Chaos refer to distinct concepts, but it is difficult to specify how they differ from each other. 

[soltakss]

17 hours ago, bronze said:

Wondering why Kralorela has never managed to establish a world empire. After all, Orlanthi achieved it with much less. Is it due to development of Wyrmtongue? 

Why bother? Kralorela was perfect in the Golden Age and the Emperors have been trying to make it perfect again. The rest of Glorantha can continue to wallow in its filth and impurity for all they care. Kralorela helped the EWF in the Second Age and look what happened then, they learned that lesson.

17 hours ago, bronze said:

It is said the Void and Chaos refer to distinct concepts, but it is difficult to specify how they differ from each other. 

Void is nothingness, emptiness, the loss of existence.

Chaos is corruption, destruction, the loss of everything.

So, they are very different.

Some people want to return Glorantha to Primal Chaos, which is the state of not being, and identify that as the Void. However, the Void is not simply Primal Chaos, for Primal Chaos is something, and the Void is nothing.

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

On 10/21/2023 at 12:45 AM, bronze said:

It is said the Void and Chaos refer to distinct concepts, but it is difficult to specify how they differ from each other. 

This is my personal take/understanding: Chaos is Void that leaks into the Cosmos. It's not where it should be, and it's basically inimical to the underlying laws of nature, so it dissolves and warps everything it touches. Unbridled creative potential just doesn't do well with things that usually need to stay in one shape and have one mental configuration and the like.

It's a bit like how sunlight is absolutely necessary for life on Earth, but if we remove the ozone layer, it will burn your skin and fry your cells into a cancerous mess. 

Dragons and mystics USUALLY have little to no desire to further push void into creation (ie. chaos) because it doesn't further their goals of personal or collective liberation/illumination/transcendence, but ALSO illumination does involve the realization that Chaos is mostly just something that's where it's not supposed to be, as it were. 

So mystics usually seek to freely join the Void, while Chaotics seek to topple the Cosmos by violently breaking down the barrier between cosmos and chaos. It's like if someone lived on a raft, and some people sought to hop into the water and learn to swim, while some others sought to sink the entire raft because f*** you.

[bronze]

On 10/22/2023 at 1:18 AM, soltakss said:

Why bother? Kralorela was perfect in the Golden Age and the Emperors have been trying to make it perfect again. The rest of Glorantha can continue to wallow in its filth and impurity for all they care. Kralorela helped the EWF in the Second Age and look what happened then, they learned that lesson.

Didn't the False Dragon Ring teach the EWF and benefitted from it? 

On 10/22/2023 at 1:18 AM, soltakss said:

Void is nothingness, emptiness, the loss of existence.

Chaos is corruption, destruction, the loss of everything.

So, they are very different.

Some people want to return Glorantha to Primal Chaos, which is the state of not being, and identify that as the Void. However, the Void is not simply Primal Chaos, for Primal Chaos is something, and the Void is nothing.

If Void and Chaos are different, where the Dragons are coming and going? 

[jajagappa]

50 minutes ago, bronze said:

where the Dragons are coming and going? 

Ouroboros, the infinite.  

[John Biles]

On 10/20/2023 at 5:45 PM, bronze said:

Wondering why Kralorela has never managed to establish a world empire. After all, Orlanthi achieved it with much less. Is it due to development of Wyrmtongue? 

It is said the Void and Chaos refer to distinct concepts, but it is difficult to specify how they differ from each other. 

Kralorela is as big or bigger than the Empire of Wyrm Friends or the lands of the three Councils.

And hasn't spent centuries beating each other up like the Orlanthi.

On 10/19/2023 at 3:29 PM, bronze said:

Why most of Dragonnewts and other draconic creatures live in Kralorela, despite of historical significance of the Dragon Pass? After all, the Dragon Nest is located in the Dragon Pass, and that is why the Dragonkill did occur. Does the East contain a greater Nest? 

And what is the nature of the Void and otherworlds the True Dragons ultimately return by performing utuma? 

From an Eastern viewpoint, Dragon Pass is full of unenlightened yahoos who kill each for nothing and the Dragons and Dragonnewts of DP are doing it wrong.

[Malin]

I think it also is important to consider that many of the more philosophical/weird things in Glorantha do not really have a clear answer in game, it is still an ongoing philosophical debate between different factions (gestures to the forum). We can't know exactly what the Void is, and how/if it is related to primal chaos because the only ones who would know are the people who have become enlightened enough to return to it, and they are not coming back. Even if a Dragon would be friendly enough to try to explain the full concept, the barrier of language would still be there. No human can have a perfect enough grasp of Auld Wyrmish, and I think part of it is because we cannot grasp the core concepts of certain words.

It is a bit like trying to picture the fourth dimension, we can mathematically simulate how a hypercube would interact with our three-dimensional world, but we can't picture how it would look in our minds. We are not equipped for it.

That's one of the things I love about Glorantha, the more you learn, the more questions there are. There's no secret guide to answers anywhere.

[Joerg]

13 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Ouroboros, the infinite.  

Lately that shape has been usurped by Zaramaka.

[Joerg]

14 hours ago, bronze said:

Didn't the False Dragon Ring teach the EWF and benefitted from it?

Depends. There were various short cut practices in the EWF, like the one practiced by Isgangdrang which has similarities to Immanent Mastery but much greater results.

14 hours ago, bronze said:

If Void and Chaos are different, where the Dragons are coming and going? 

There is no Chaos outside of Glorantha, unless you bring it there. Chaos is the corruption of Creation. As such, Primal Chaos emerges from the Chaosium. The Void is the endless Sea of possibilities beyond Creation. On the far side of the Cosmos, there is the Source, a well of energies that permeates the Cosmos before it escapes from the Underworld into the Void.

There is one story telling about the arrival of the dragons from outside the Cosmos, settling down in Glorantha to spawn. (There is of course also the draconic creation myth about dismembering Orxili)

True Dragons are nearly complete mystics, but still waiting about their ascension. The only dragon ascension that we know about was that of Obduran the Flyer, the only successful EWF leader (we know by name) who left his draconic shape behind to become one with the Source. We know of a handful of Eastern mystics (including one of their Greater Deities) who obtained mystical ascension - Oorduren, Venforn are named, Kralori dragon emperors are assumed. (Malkioni ascension appears to be a different thing, to a different end.)

10 hours ago, John Biles said:

Kralorela is as big or bigger than the Empire of Wyrm Friends or the lands of the three Councils.

At the time of its greatest extent, the EWF contained much of Peloria and Ralios in addition to Dragon Pass, Prax and the Elder Wilds. Ignorance has always been externalized.

 

10 hours ago, John Biles said:

And hasn't spent centuries beating each other up like the Orlanthi.

Kralorela has its homegrown antigods - not just Sekever's Huan-To, but also ogres and other demons, some of them right within or below their major cities. Its many schools of martial artists don't keep peace among themselves or with those demons etc., either. The conquests by the False Dragon Ring and later by Sheng Seleris may have been less impactful on the dragonewts, but then it isn't clear whether Sekever is an acceptable dragon emperor to them, too.

6 hours ago, Malin said:

I think it also is important to consider that many of the more philosophical/weird things in Glorantha do not really have a clear answer in game, it is still an ongoing philosophical debate between different factions (gestures to the forum). We can't know exactly what the Void is, and how/if it is related to primal chaos because the only ones who would know are the people who have become enlightened enough to return to it, and they are not coming back.

No successful ascension ends up in the Void - it ends up in the Source, on the far end of the Cosmos. While the mystics meditate on the Void (or Nothing, or Stillness), they advance away from it (and the shackles of the Cosmos).

 

6 hours ago, Malin said:

Even if a Dragon would be friendly enough to try to explain the full concept, the barrier of language would still be there. No human can have a perfect enough grasp of Auld Wyrmish, and I think part of it is because we cannot grasp the core concepts of certain words. to answers anywhere.

No unmodified human being. A dragonfriend who has undergone the required modifications (and who has integrated enough dragon portions of their selves) will have no difficulties advancing in Auld Wyrmish.

 

[g33k]

21 hours ago, bronze said:

...

If Void and Chaos are different, where the Dragons are coming and going? 

One of the things to learn about Glorantha -- and best learned sooner than later -- is the futility of trying to pin down cosmological truth; even less-possible, Truth!

Two things can each be "true" in Glorantha (provably true, by HQ'ing to the Godtime & seeing it happen, participating, even bringing back pieces of that "truth" as HQ'ing rewards) and yet be mutually-incompatible ("both cannot be true") things.  Those things (and their manifest Truths, in the forms of their respective HQ-rewards) coexist.

There is no singular reality behind the veil.  When the blind men feel the legs, the trunk, etc... some of them are feeling the selfsame elephant, but some are feeling a rhino; and some are feel a walrus.  Just pray you aren't one of the ones feeling Kyger Litor ...