Why Humakt, Yelm and Ourania are ambivalent towards the Chaos?

[bronze]

Of all deities, they should oppose the Chaos the most. Are they secretly in league with the Chaos? 

How could Yelm accept the Red Goddess as his daughter? Isn't Chaos the ultimate rebellions against cosmic order? 

Edited November 15, 2023 by bronze

[Richard S.]

They oppose chaos when it must be opposed, but they're illuminated, having overcome the unthinking fear and hatred towards it that others have. Yelm is illuminated because of his death and confrontation with his shadow, but I don't recall why Humakt and Ourania are.

The Red Goddess is Yelm's daughter because she proved she was. Yes, chaos is evil, but the Red Goddess can control it, making it serve Yelm's order.

Edit: Here's some reading that touches on the subject:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/yelm-chaos/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/notes-on-humakt/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/non-chaotic-cults-primal-chaos/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/greg-sez/humakti/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/notes-on-the-red-goddess-and-chaos/

Edited November 15, 2023 by Richard S.

[John Biles]

Dara Happans basically lump Chaos in with the Orlanthi and other unruly folk.But also, Yelm is basically the Red Goddess' flunky at this point.

Humakt just wants to stab and isn't too picky on the morality of it.

[Richard S.]

14 minutes ago, John Biles said:

Yelm is basically the Red Goddess' flunky at this point.

Yelm is very much still in charge. The Red Emperor - Yelm's representative - rules, not his mother. She gave mortals the tools to change the world, but she doesn't care what is done with those tools. Jar-Eel is the closest thing to a mortal representative of the Goddess, and she definitely takes orders from the emperor.

[John Biles]

24 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Yelm is very much still in charge. The Red Emperor - Yelm's representative - rules, not his mother. She gave mortals the tools to change the world, but she doesn't care what is done with those tools. Jar-Eel is the closest thing to a mortal representative of the Goddess, and she definitely takes orders from the emperor.

That's the scam which keeps Dara Happa in line.

But in practice, Yelm isn't really in charge of anything and certainly the Red Emperor is not really taking orders from Yelm or his cult.

The Lunar cults control the Empire and the Red Emperor is closer to them than to Yelm. 

But this isn't the first time a cuckoo took over the Dara Happans as the Draconic Emperor pulled pretty much the same scam.

 

[Cassius]

31 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Jar-Eel is the closest thing to a mortal representative of the Goddess, and she definitely takes orders from the emperor.

I would have said Great Sister is closer because she takes orders from the Red Moon herself. But maybe she can't be count as "mortal".

[Richard S.]

1 hour ago, John Biles said:

That's the scam which keeps Dara Happa in line.

But in practice, Yelm isn't really in charge of anything and certainly the Red Emperor is not really taking orders from Yelm or his cult.

The Lunar cults control the Empire and the Red Emperor is closer to them than to Yelm. 

But this isn't the first time a cuckoo took over the Dara Happans as the Draconic Emperor pulled pretty much the same scam.

Of course the red emperor isn't taking orders from Yelm or his cult, he's the one giving them! For all intents and purposes, he is Yelm, on earth. Well at least for the Pelorians, the Pentans don't really agree. But in any case, he's the grandson of Yelm and son of the Red Goddess, and high priest for both Yelm Imperator and the Red Goddess, and so controls nearly all the lunar and solar cults.  There's no scam, the Red Goddess and her message have been accepted as part of the cosmic order, and unlike the Sun Dragon, which was an enemy that only took the nation by conquest, the Red Emperor was a respected ally of Yelmgatha and named as his heir.

Most of my sources are the same ones I linked in my initial post, plus the Sourcebook and Guide.

Edit: I think your points are pretty close to how Pentans would see things, though they also probably see Dara Happa as a false empire on principle.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Richard S.

[radmonger]

5 hours ago, John Biles said:

Dara Happans basically lump Chaos in with the Orlanthi and other unruly folk

Old school Dara Happans are somewhat fuzzy on the distinction between Orlanth the son of Umath, and his brother Ragnaglar, father of Wakboth. Both of those are storm gods who broke the world, supported by violent rebels against civilisation. Any subtle distinction between the two is not really evident from the outside.

Enlightened lunar scholars would tend to respond with 'well actually' when someone  confuses the two, as they would if someone confuses say Antirius and Khelmal.  But then they go on to say that the partial redemption of Orlanth, when he went on the lightbringers quest, shows that the same is possible for Ragnaglar.

 

[Mao]

For anyone who reveres Yelm as Emperor of the Universe it seems to come down to the Lunars being able to command Chaos. The power of commanding Chaos and the official inheritance of Yelm's power of ruling over the universe is united in the body and person of The Red Emperor. So even Chaos is made to submit to the Emperor of the universe and that's so much better than having it run around causing problems. I don't think the Yelmic priest hierarchy and other associated cults actually LIKE Chaos. Chaos is inherently repugnant, unless you're illuminated. Now a lot of the Yelmic priesthood are illuminated so that helps resolve that issue. But illumination doesn't make you into a robot who adores Chaos. They're just able to recognize Chaos has it's place in the world, and can be made to submit to the Empire, just like any enemy to the legitimacy and inhabitants of the Lunar Empire.

Personal opinion on this rant starts here:

Now that being said this is part of my hangup with the Empire. I really like the Solars and I do not vibe at all with the Lunars. The over-reach of illuminated weapons of mass destruction threatens to upset the world at large, which conflicts with the element of responsibility and temperance I think a leader should embody. Which also, that's kind of been my read on how the Light/Fire rune embodies itself. Yes they tend to be stuck-up, but there are good reasons for that beyond just needing my ritual purity intact so I can throw Sun Spears at people I don't like. Temperance, measured command, upholding justice. These are virtues that are going to become more important as the Hero Wars progress and we see the excesses of both sides.
For me I don't see the use of Chaos as ever 'measured', the Crimson Bat is a true atrocity and stain on the world. Of course the illuminated Yelmic priests would understand it is Chaos that has been made to submit and serve the Empire. But an Empire built on such pain and suffering abrogates the greater responsibility to the Universe. You can say that's how all Empires end up eventually in Glorantha, and sure, but the Crimson Bat and the use and abuse of Chaos is pretty damn bad.
Then again, Yelm's arrogance and desire for control is also what led to him being murdered by Orlanth. At least from the perspective of the Theyalans. Maybe we're seeing this play out in time again. Yelm on Earth thinks they're doing the world a favour by bringing it under control but is also doing harm at the same time. Except this time the Emperor has Chaos in his arsenal which further intensifies the conflict. But it needn't have been Chaos in particular, the threat of the Emperor over-reaching is always there. And for every action there's a reaction, and the storm of the Hero Wars is that reaction.

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, radmonger said:

Old school Dara Happans are somewhat fuzzy on the distinction between Orlanth the son of Umath, and his brother Ragnaglar, father of Wakboth. Both of those are storm gods who broke the world

Perhaps illuminated Yelm thinks that getting shanked by stupid, violent, uncultured, “demonic” Orlanth was the best thing that ever happened to him — he underwent spiritual development, and now he balances the powers of Life and Death. In the short term, getting stabbed sucked, but taking the long view, Yelm’s murder was part of the creation of the world we all know and love.

Attitudes to Orlanth may be a bit like attitudes to Seth — if Seth hadn’t killed Osiris, Osiris wouldn’t have become ruler of the Underworld (a necessary part of the solar cycle). At some points, the Egyptians saw Seth as violent and unruly but necessary and a fighter against Apophis/Chaos, but later perhaps saw Seth as more and more like Apophis, an enemy of good order. Paralleling the slide in Glorantha from détente at the dawn to the Hero Wars at the end of the 3rd Age? (Going too far to see the RG as a bit like Isis — putting one over on the sun god, sometimes — and the Red Emperor as her son Horus?)

I do wonder whether any of Humakt (Lord of Terror #1), Yelm, and Sedenya really think Chaos can be controlled or domesticated — perhaps they have just made their peace with what cannot be controlled or eradicated. People running the Empire might think they have Chaos (and various subject peoples) under their thumb, but it may be that the delusion of control is an occupational hazard for imperialists.

[radmonger]

Humakt is neutral to chaos because, having severed all relations his kin, he can't feel anything but indifference towards his nephew Wakboth.

Doesn't mean he won't kill him in a fair fight. or if he's getting paid. But there is no hatred there.

[Akhôrahil]

Also, Humakt is very much opposed to a subset of Chaos, i.e. the undead.

(Not sure how well this goes with Illumination, tbh.)

[Joerg]

Undead aren't necessarily Chaos. Pre-Devil encounter Nontraya, Zorak Zoran and Gagarth are not intrinsically chaotic. Gark is listed with the Chaos pantheon, but what is his Chaos?

Delecti has ties to the Vivamort cult, but doesn't seem to be chaotic himself.

Both Humakt and Yelm have agendas, and no tolerance for what goes against that agenda regardless of illumination.

[Akhôrahil]

9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Gagarth

Whirlvishes aren't undead - they're spirits, much as ghosts (although embodied). Or were you thinking of something else there?

In addition to the listed, would there be non-Chaotic sorcery-created undead (at least the mere constructs, like zombies and skeletons)?

Edited November 16, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Undead aren’t necessarily Chaos. Pre-Devil encounter Nontraya … not intrinsically chaotic.

Nontraya wasn’t intrinsically or necessarily Chaotic — in your language, they became corrupted; they weren’t born that way, and with better luck might not have ended up that way — but presumably before the deal with the Devil, they were not undead, either:

• [T]he Devil attacked him and wounded him. The wound would not heal, and his Power drained out through it to the void. Vivamort faced not just death, but annihilation from this Chaos wound … The Devil allowed him a hollow existence. Vivamort was cut off from the mystic unity of the world and from the universal flow of Power, and cast apart from both life and death. From that agreement onwards, Vivamort would need to drain life from others and to embrace Chaos. — CoT Classic, p. 45

This would seem to say that the Devil spared Vivamort annihilation by making him undead. This passage would seem to fit with the understanding of Chaos in which it may be essentially contested, but it is to be understood in terms of wrongness — vampiric flow of POW disrupts Cosmos — and absence — POW drains into the Void. I don’t say that this is a scientific understanding, but it would seem to suit Gloranthan ideology (which does not exist, of course … and asserting that it might is wrong).

So perhaps the way to determine whether Undeath is “intrinsically chaotic” is to analyse it in terms of Cosmos-disrupting POW shenanigans, always with an eye out for POW draining into the Void, of course. Likely, this will be normative, moralistic, ideological finger-wagging, but in as much as it draws out assumptions about Cosmos/rightness/Maat, it may still be instructive. Gark — for example — lures people away from the circle of life/cycle of rebirth (and so away from possible spiritual development) by doing a bait and switch with illumination and eternal apathy; how does that sit with the “mystic unity of the world and … the universal flow of Power”? (Alternatively, ask me how I learned to stop worrying about wrongness and love the Void.)

Of course, this sort of cod analysis is likely to lead to conclusions such as Tapping is Chaotic — but so it should, right? And even if we »proved« (Gloranthans love that word) that all was , we know that not all  is , so Humakt (an agent of Entropy himself) needn’t treat them both the same.

Edited November 16, 2023 by mfbrandi
hyphen

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Whirlvishes aren't undead - they're spirits, much as ghosts (although embodied). Or were you thinking of something else there?

Indeed. E.g. Prosopaedia p.42 or CoRQ Lightbringers p.90:

Quote

His companions include slavering spirit wolves and a howling crowd of dead followers.

Collectively called the Wild Hunt (CoRQ Lightbringers p.94).

 

In fact, the Wild Hunt and Nontrayas hordes of the dead don't sound so different.

 

There are also the undead Vadeli created by Vadel's encounter with the shaman in Pamaltela.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Joerg

[Akhôrahil]

Those might just be regular dead and not undead. 🙂

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

So perhaps the way to determine whether Undeath is “intrinsically chaotic” is to analyse it in terms of Cosmos-disrupting POW shenanigans, always with an eye out for POW draining into the Void, of course.

Undead as physical creatures lacking POW is a RuneQuest definition more than a Gloranthan definition. In RQ terms, it is very clear and concise.

 

The Walking Dead aren't necessarily undead - CoRQ Mythology has introduced to us the City of Departure, which seems to have seen a steady stream of passengers to the Underworld.

 

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Likely, this will be normative, moralistic, ideological finger-wagging, but in as much as it draws out assumptions about Cosmos/rightness/Maat, it may still be instructive.

An absence of POW doesn't indicate wrongness. Sandy's Pamaltela campaign encountered spirits who consisted of Magic Points only, that had existed in that shape since Creation. When captured and used to power spells, they ceased to exist.

 

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Gark — for example — lures people away from the circle of life/cycle of rebirth (and so away from possible spiritual development) by doing a bait and switch with illumination and eternal apathy; how does that sit with the “mystic unity of the world and … the universal flow of Power”?

Rather than pass on a work obligation to the next generation, a follower of Gark gets to fulfill their work quota, serving their community and easing the lives of their loved ones. Or, in Fonrit, make sure that the owner gets the amount of work owed for the acquisition of that slave.

Existence as a zombie is finite, but allows the deceased to leave free of debts or obligations when the zombified body finally breaks down. That is liberating. A soul thus purified of obligations brings better karma.

Zorak Zorani agree.

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

(Alternatively, ask me how I learned to stop worrying about wrongness and love the Void.)

There is nothing wrong about the Void where it belongs (which is nowhere inside the cosmos). Both the Source and the Void are acknowledge as extracosmic components interacting with the cosmos.

What broke Glorantha was not Chaos, it was an over-abundance of Creation bursting the seams of a too limiting design under a regime unwilling to adapt.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Joerg

[French Desperate WindChild]

17 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Undead as physical creatures lacking POW is a RuneQuest definition more than a Gloranthan definition. In RQ terms, it is very clear and concise.

 

"Undead as physical creatures laking soul"  seems to me a better Gloranthan  definition, it is enough clear and concise. But am I wrong ?

[Joerg]

17 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

 

"Undead as physical creatures laking soul"  seems to me a better Gloranthan  definition, it is enough clear and concise. But am I wrong ?

Do Jolanti have a soul (other than those in Aggar liberated from Nida by Gonn Orta who were gifted by the Aldryami)?

[French Desperate WindChild]

14 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Do Jolanti have a soul (other than those in Aggar liberated from Nida by Gonn Orta who were gifted by the Aldryami)?

I don't know, that's my question, what is life ?,

 

how were they created ? in the same way that gods created mortal ?

[French Desperate WindChild]

by the way, when there are spirits every where, even in grass, why deny any soul for "machine" ?

 

[Richard S.]

New Topic for undead discussion so it doesn't completely derail this.

[FlamingCatOfDeath]

On 11/15/2023 at 5:12 AM, mfbrandi said:

Perhaps illuminated Yelm thinks that getting shanked by stupid, violent, uncultured, “demonic” Orlanth was the best thing that ever happened to him — he underwent spiritual development, and now he balances the powers of Life and Death. In the short term, getting stabbed sucked, but taking the long view, Yelm’s murder was part of the creation of the world we all know and love

His murders aftermath has made him destined to be devoured by entropy so I don’t think he views his current situation as an improvement 

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

His murders aftermath has made him destined to be devoured by entropy so I don’t think he views his current situation as an improvement 

We all succumb to entropy in the end. In his illuminated state, Yelm can surely make his peace with that — the Darkness held secrets and solace for him. In the meantime, he has his place of honour in the celebrated daily and annual cycles … and longer cycles, too. Only the delusional and the depressed think that the world of Time — in which every mechanism is wearing — is essentially wrong. Yelm has seen too much to be so childish.

Perhaps the Mostali think that the original sin was setting the World Machine in motion at the very beginning of things — that the only way to have avoided running down would have been for nothing to have happened … ever. Perhaps. But the blueprint called for moving parts …

Meanwhile, Yelm sings along with Joni:

• But now old friends are acting strange
  They shake their heads, they say I’ve changed
  Well something’s lost, but something’s gained
  In living every day

(Although this is his secret favourite.)