Confused by Weapon Skills, Specialties, Classes, and Base Skill values

[Gnoman]

Hello!

I just bought the new Basic Roleplaying: Universal Game Edition hardcover, I really like what I’ve read and I'm eager to run a game in the new year, so I started preparing a quick handout to guide my players through character creation when I noticed what appears (to my novice eyes) to be a contradiction between weapon skills, weapon specialties, and weapon classes that I can’t reconcile. I’ve re-read the sections a few times and I still feel like I’m missing something, and wondered if someone with more experience might be able to clarify, thank you.

In short: I’m struggling to understand the way a weapon specialty/class can include weapons with different base chances, which doesn't seem consistent with having a single skill value, e.g. ‘Melee Weapon (Sword) 55%’ when a short sword has a base of 15% and a great sword has a base of 05%.

Looking at the Melee Weapon (Various) skill description on page 47, it reads (bold/underlined my emphasis):
Base Chance: As per weapon specialty
Category: Combat
Use this skill to wield a particular type of weapon in hand-to-hand combat, whether attacking or parrying.
Specialties: Specialties are equivalent to weapon classes. See Weapon Classes (page 169) of Chapter 8: Equipment. Each specialty applies to weapons from that category of weapon only: but the gamemaster may allow use of a similar weapon class as if Difficult.

Then ‘Weapon Classes’ on page 169 reads:
The descriptions for the Heavy Weapon, Melee Weapon, and Missile Weapon skills in Chapter Three: Skills refer to weapon specialties and weapon classes. A weapon class is a rough group the weapon belongs to, while the specialty is your character’s skill using weapons in that class.
Weapons fall into classes, with skills into specialties.

And then under ‘Using Weapons of the Same Class’ on page 170:
Use your skill specialty with all weapons of that particular class. This generalization means your character can use most types of similar weapons without hindrance.
For example, if your character has the skill Melee Weapon (Sword), this applies to long swords, broadswords, short swords, etc., just as Firearm (Revolver) applies to light, medium, and heavy revolvers.

So all of the above suggests (to me) that weapon specialties and classes are the same, ‘Sword’ is both a specialty and a class, so if I put points into ‘Melee Weapon (Sword)’ I will have the same chance to hit with all weapons in the ‘Sword’ class.

But if we then under the list of weapon classes, we can see ‘Sword’ includes the following, each with diffent base chances: ‘Bastard sword (10%), broad sword (15%), energy sword (10%), great sword (05%), katana (15%), long sword (15%), monofilament sword (05%), rapier (15%), saber (05%), scimitar (15%), short sword (15%), sickle* (10%), sword cane (15%), vibro-sword (20%), wakizashi (15%).'

*sickle is actually classed as an 'improvised' weapon rather than a 'sword' on the historic melee weapons table.

So what's confusing me is how the skill’s base chance could be ‘as per weapon specialty’ if various weapons within that specialty have different base chances? If my character puts 50 points into ‘Melee Weapon (Sword)’, what would the total be?
 

• If I want Character A to use a great sword I might work it out as Base 05% + 50% = Melee Weapon (Sword) 55%
• If I want Character B to use a short sword I might work it out as Base 15% + 50% = Melee Weapon (Sword) 65%

But if Character A later picks up a short sword, would their Melee Weapon (Sword) would still be 55%? If Character B picks up a great sword, would their Melee Weapon (Sword) still be 65%, even though they’re using the more difficult weapon?

I've searched around and haven't found anybody else struggling to understand this, which makes me think I must be missing something - I hope some BRP veterans can clarify for me as I really like the feel of the system overall.

I've also noticed the ‘Skill’ column for a lot of listings doesn’t actually align with a weapon class. For example, with the primitive missile weapons:

• The Boomerang weapon gives its skill as ‘Boomerang,’ but the weapon class list puts the Boomerang under the ‘Missile’ class, does that mean there there should be no ‘Boomerang’ skill?
• Knife (thrown) gives its skill as ‘Throw Knife’ which isn’t a skill mentioned anywhere in the book, so I guess that should just be ‘Throw’?

Similarly most artillery weapons on the various artillery weapons tables give the relevant skill as just ‘Artillery’ rather than one of the Artillery weapon classes (Cannon, Launcher, Mounted Gun, Siege Engine, Missile, Turret).

Thanks very much for any help, I'm really looking forward to running my first session!

 

[Dangermouse]

Hi, I had the same issue when trying to code things and got some answes from the authors.  I'll try and summarise:

• For the most part the weapons class/speciaility is as per the weapons tables (so Sword is a skill, Axe is a different skill etc)
• Ignore the percentages in the weapons tables - take the highest value as the base for that weapons class.  For example all "Hammers" use the Hammer skill and the base% is 25%.  The different percentages are a hangover from previous editions and can be ignored (other than for the point just mentioned)
• There should be a Thrown Axe skill for using a Thrown Axe - which is separate from Axe
• Throwing Knife in Primitive weapons should use "Thrown Knife" skill rather than Missile (so Thrown Knife is a skill)
• Lasso and Net should have their own skills rather than Other Missile
• Cestus should be Brawl skill (not Hand)
• Using a sniper rifle without a bipod does incur a 10% penalty (note 4)

I tool the same approach as you and gave each of the Artillery weapons separate skills in line with the Equipment list.

Hope that helps

Cheers

Edited December 28, 2023 by Dangermouse

[Mugen]

If you have a Melee Weapon skill with a Great Sword specialization (base 5%) and use a Short Sword (base 15%), you're supposed to use your Melee Weapon (Great Sword) skill and add 10% (the difference between skills) to your skill.

There's an exploit here, as it's easier to gain experience and go over 100% with a skill that has a base of 5% than it is with a skill with a base of 15%.

I'd simply use the same base value for all weapon skills, and apply the difference in base skill as a modifier to the skill. For instance, the Melee Weapon (Swords) would have a 10% base, and I'd add 5% when using Short swords and subtract 5% when using Two handed swords.

[Atgxtg]

I'd go with:

1. Weapons of the same type (1H Sword, 1H Axe, 2H Spear, etc) used the same skill (so Broadsword, Shortsword and Scimitar would all use 1H Sword).
2. Weapons that were considered by the GM to similar (i.e 1H Club and 1H Axe) can default to one half the higher of the two skills. 
3. OPTIONALLY: Rule  #2 can be applied to someone using an weapon that they are unfamiliar with at first, until they get time to become familiar with the balance of the weapon. For instance, if a PC loses their broadsword (1H Sword) and picks up a kopesh (also 1H Sword) for the first time.

That seems a lot simpler to me, and is more in keeping with the spirit of older BRP games.

[g33k]

Three general notes, as you approach the BRP:UGE rulebook:

#1 - as noted by @Dangermouse, above, the game is descended from a rather-large suite of games in the "BRP family" and often has holdovers from those games included accidentally.

#2 - The BRP rulebook is really NOT a "role-playing game;" it is a suite of rules-options from which you can assemble a role-playing game.  As such, some of the options are mutually-incompatible (either/or choices) while others are "pick as many or as few as desired" choices.

(in your specific case, it looks to me like the "weapon classes" and "specialty" rules are mis-matched, and mistakenly linked together when they should be "either/or" choice here; the old Ringworld BRP game used a "Skill Tree" approach to skills, where "Combat / Melee / Sword / Greatsword" each represented successive specialties of one another; so with NO ranged-combat skill at all, you could still grab a crossbow and use your "Combat" skill + DEX to do a much better job than the wizard without any combat-skills)

#3 - Despite the two points above -- or maybe because of the two points above -- it doesn't really matter!  The BRP rules are largely intercompatible, robust, and forgiving.  Pick any reasonable interpretation (as best suits your own preference)... and it'll work.

Edited December 28, 2023 by g33k
typo

[Atgxtg]

7 minutes ago, g33k said:

Three general notes, as you approach the BRP:UGE rulebook:

#1 - as noted by @Dangermouse, above, the game is descended from a rather-large suite of games in the "BRP family" and often has holdovers from those games included accidentally.

And often those holdovers are either incopatible with each other or with new rules added in the BGB/UGE. 

Basically most, if not all, of this stuff worked, back in the game where it orginally ame from. But the mix 'n match nature of the BGB leads to things being used together that were not created to do so. 

7 minutes ago, g33k said:

#2 - The RP rulebook is really NOT a "role-playing game;" it is a suite of rules-options from which you can assemble a role-playing game.  As such, some of the options are mutually-incompatible (either/or choices) while others are "pick as many or as few as desired" choices.

Yeah, it's greatest strength is it's greatest weakness. It's a great tool kit for experienced GMs who want to fine tune it to fit a specific setting, but it's very hard to get it all to work together until you do. 

7 minutes ago, g33k said:

#3 - Despite the two points above -- or maybe because of the two points above -- it doesn't really matter!  The BRP rules are largely intercompatible, robust, and forgiving.  Pick any reasonable interpretation (as best suits your own preference)... and it'll work.

Yup. How well it works will be the issue, and that is subjective, both by player preferences and by the genre being emulated.  

[soltakss]

20 hours ago, Gnoman said:

I just bought the new Basic Roleplaying: Universal Game Edition hardcover, I really like what I’ve read and I'm eager to run a game in the new year, so I started preparing a quick handout to guide my players through character creation when I noticed what appears (to my novice eyes) to be a contradiction between weapon skills, weapon specialties, and weapon classes that I can’t reconcile. I’ve re-read the sections a few times and I still feel like I’m missing something, and wondered if someone with more experience might be able to clarify, thank you.

The issue of Weapon Types vs individual weapons has always been a mess.

What I would do would be use generic Weapon Types, so 1H Sword, 2H Sword, 1H Axe, 2H Axe and so on. Just give each type a single base chance and don't bother splitting the Base Chance from the eventual skill.

20 hours ago, Gnoman said:

So all of the above suggests (to me) that weapon specialties and classes are the same, ‘Sword’ is both a specialty and a class, so if I put points into ‘Melee Weapon (Sword)’ I will have the same chance to hit with all weapons in the ‘Sword’ class.

But if we then under the list of weapon classes, we can see ‘Sword’ includes the following, each with diffent base chances: ‘Bastard sword (10%), broad sword (15%), energy sword (10%), great sword (05%), katana (15%), long sword (15%), monofilament sword (05%), rapier (15%), saber (05%), scimitar (15%), short sword (15%), sickle* (10%), sword cane (15%), vibro-sword (20%), wakizashi (15%).'

I would do the opposite, personally.

So, I would have 1H Sword as a weapon type, with a Base chance of, maybe 15. Then I would have a Speciality of Shortsword then using a Shortsword should be better than using a Longsword, Broadsword, Bastard Sword, Scimitar or whatever other 1H Swords you have in your setting. The rules are unclear, or poor, in this respect, but I'd give a +20 for having a Speciality but would have that Speciality as an individual weapon, as you specialise in Shortsword.

 

20 hours ago, Gnoman said:

The Boomerang weapon gives its skill as ‘Boomerang,’ but the weapon class list puts the Boomerang under the ‘Missile’ class, does that mean there there should be no ‘Boomerang’ skill?

Just use Boomerang as a Weapon Class and the issue goes away.

 

20 hours ago, Gnoman said:

Knife (thrown) gives its skill as ‘Throw Knife’ which isn’t a skill mentioned anywhere in the book, so I guess that should just be ‘Throw’?

I would have Thrown Weapon as a Weapon Class which works the same for knives, shuriken, darts, axes and so on.

Keep Throw for lobbing bricks, grenades and Molotov cocktails.

 

20 hours ago, Gnoman said:

Similarly most artillery weapons on the various artillery weapons tables give the relevant skill as just ‘Artillery’ rather than one of the Artillery weapon classes (Cannon, Launcher, Mounted Gun, Siege Engine, Missile, Turret).

Similarly, have Artillery as a Weapon Class and have the weapons under that, with Specialities if required.

The rules seem a bit backwards here, so it is a matter of interpretation.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by soltakss

[Gnoman]

Thanks for the input everyone, I'd hoped I was just missing something and there was one 'true' by-the-book answer/method between the lines, seems that isn't the case but you've all provided great alternatives and I really appreciate you taking the time to share your wisdom!

12 hours ago, Dangermouse said:

Hi, I had the same issue when trying to code things and got some answes from the authors.  I'll try and summarise:

• For the most part the weapons class/speciaility is as per the weapons tables (so Sword is a skill, Axe is a different skill etc)
• Ignore the percentages in the weapons tables - take the highest value as the base for that weapons class.  For example all "Hammers" use the Hammer skill and the base% is 25%.  The different percentages are a hangover from previous editions and can be ignored (other than for the point just mentioned)
• There should be a Thrown Axe skill for using a Thrown Axe - which is separate from Axe
• Throwing Knife in Primitive weapons should use "Thrown Knife" skill rather than Missile (so Thrown Knife is a skill)
• Lasso and Net should have their own skills rather than Other Missile
• Cestus should be Brawl skill (not Hand)
• Using a sniper rifle without a bipod does incur a 10% penalty (note 4)

I tool the same approach as you and gave each of the Artillery weapons separate skills in line with the Equipment list.

Hope that helps

Cheers

I reckon I'll go with this method, I did think about the 'ignore the percentages - take the highest value' approach before posting, so considering you heard that from the author that's as good as by-the-book for me, many thanks!

(I'm also just glad to find out I'm not the only person to struggle with this!)

[Mugen]

1 hour ago, Gnoman said:

Thanks for the input everyone, I'd hoped I was just missing something and there was one 'true' by-the-book answer/method between the lines, seems that isn't the case but you've all provided great alternatives and I really appreciate you taking the time to share your wisdom!

Well, what I described above is the rules as written.

But, despite what I said earlier, I would certainly not handle weapon skills this way. I'd rather have a broad "Melee" skill that can be used with any melee weapon, and specialties that adds a % to the base skill.

I would also treat every skill this way, with -for instance- an Athletics skill with specialties such as Jump, Climb, Swim, etc. Or a Communication skill with specialties such as Command, Seduce, Bargain, Persuade, etc.

I've yet to implement an experience system that works well with this variant, though...

[Zit]

My understanding is that it depends on the granularity you want, as explained in the Equipment chapter (note that I'm refering to the former editionof BRP). "Speciality" refers to a skill, while "weapon class" to a family of items.

If you choose a rough granularity, the default rule, then speciality = weapon class and all weapons of a single class are included in the skill, all at the same rating. Note that in old Runequest 2, which is the origin of the BRP, swords were divided into 1H and 2H -and even Shortsword was a class- which explains the difference between Great Sword 5% and 1H swords 15%.

If you choose a more acurate granularity, each speciality is a single weapon (ex shortsword) with its own base rating and specialities do not correspond exactly to weapon classes. Weapons are still gathered in weapon classes as items, not as skills, with the only advantage that using a weapon of the same class is easier (either with the method explained above by @Mugen or at 1/2 rating -GM's choice) than starting at base rating.