Trifletraxor Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 The favorite past time of teh D&D players I know is to create high-level characters from scratch, spending hours to find the "right" combination of powers. When they play, it's usually "Charge!" whatever opposition they encounter. When playing RQ, they usually die because of this, and thus prefer D&D. This colours my impression of D&D players quite a bit, so I too believe there is more thought going into the actual playing of BRP conpared to D&D. SGL. Quote Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub! 116/420. High Priest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMS Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Hardly. I haven't seen one yet where mass genocide wasn't possible. One kick ass group I used to game with even developed some tactcis that would break most dugeouns wide open. Made a beeline to the bootm level. By the time you get there you've gotten tough enough to kill the "boss". Clear our the bottom level and then work your way up, with everything after bottom level or so becoming a cakewalk. My opinion would have been that they were being presented with way too easy of foes if they were able to do this. Of course they were the guys who won that Slave Pits module where the characters are overwhelemd by the Slave Lord's in a "no win" fight. Since the next part of the module required that the PCs escpae from their cell, it made that linear adventure a bit tough. You know I never did read or play those series of modules, though they were supposedly classics. I'd also note that they were tournament modules and I already conceded that tournament modules, by their very intent, were always linear. The classic, but generally poor, C modules are examples. Not in most dungeouns. To get item A means beating foe B. Foe B's minions will fight the group, and allies if any are prewritten into the adventure. The story is linerar. It is just that they put some randomness in the "triggers". In the end the party will ally with the gnomes, (or whoever the good guys are) and attack the kobolds (or whoever the bad guys are). The rest is just die rolling and racking up treasure and XP. That's not my experience. This certainly happened, but it wasn't universal and wasn't even the norm. Beating Foe B could take a lot of forms. A straight forward fight might be common, but I saw a lot of other approaches, and befriending the gnomes and killing the kobolds was far from a certainty with my groups. They were just as likely to befriend the kobolds, take out the gnomes, or even more likely to trick the gnomes into attacking the kobolds and then make off with everyone's loot while the two groups were fighting it out. They even ran protection rackets in several dungeons, essentially making off with group's loot without raising a sword. It would if all the options you presented actually applied to a dungeon crawl, but generally they don't. Such adventures typically have some "Save the princess/kingdom/whatever" reason for going into the dungeon. A bunch of meaningless encounters and some significant ones to push the PCs along the path towards the final bad guy. I disagree with your assesment in general. You must have had far different experiences with early adventures than i did. Plus, I'd point out that having a bunch of encounteres inbetween with the crisus and the climax isn't a linear adventure. The big deal is that the players don't have to navigate all those "meaningless encounters" in any specific way to deal with the final bad guy. They can deal with those however they want, and if one thing they do completely eliminates another one of those counters, it doesn't derail the adventure, which is what would happen in a linear adventure. Things like, oh, the PCs joining up with the bad guy, or walking away from the adventure are not even considered. It is really being led around by the nose. I don't know about the main bad guy. In most cases, he should be a foe they'll have to overcome IMO, and if he has the McGuffin they're after than that is the main purpose of the adventure. What I'm talking about is what's inbetween. How does the plot unfold during the advenure? Do the players have a plethora of avenues to get from the crisus to the big bad guy, or do they have to complete a bunch of individual actions first...eccentuated if there is only one way to deal with each of those encounters (ie. pixel bitching). I don't even have a problem if the adventure is set up so that the group really needs to do A, then B, and finally C. I just don't want there to be any one true way that each has to be handled. I also don't want anything to push the characters back onto the path to C, if they decide instead to wander off and deal with D. (Of course, I might let them socialize a bit while I figure out exactly what D is....) I'd also note here that many of the early dungeons that I'm thinking about were really there simply to be explored, so the group wasn't even there to find any big bad guy. Once again, I'm not necessarily a fan of the anonymous dungeon (though it's no worse than an illogical dungeon with a purpose), but I am convinced that there's nothing much less linear than a dungeon full of disconnected encounters that are there only to be experienced and not to build to some grand plot. The plot is whatever the players decide to do there, and isn't predetermined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trifletraxor Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Linear can be very good too, it actually just needs to give an illusion of choice for the players to enjoy it. The CoC scenarios I've read was f.ex. pretty linear. Gather these clues, go to next step - investigate some more and gather more clues, then final confrontration (wit a go insane possibility!). SGL. Quote Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub! 116/420. High Priest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Linear can be very good too, it actually just needs to give an illusion of choice for the players to enjoy it. The CoC scenarios I've read was f.ex. pretty linear. Gather these clues, go to next step - investigate some more and gather more clues, then final confrontration (wit a go insane possibility!). SGL. The favorite past time of teh D&D players I know is to create high-level characters from scratch, spending hours to find the "right" combination of powers. When they play, it's usually "Charge!" whatever opposition they encounter. When playing RQ, they usually die because of this, and thus prefer D&D. This colours my impression of D&D players quite a bit, so I too believe there is more thought going into the actual playing of BRP conpared to D&D. SGL. That is what I've seen. I've wiped out more D&Ders from frontal charges that probably anyone else in anything else-combined. Charging ,missile troops was a valid tactic in D&D. Missile weapons did around 1D6, and most fighters could shrug that off while getting in close to hit with their +3 swords and +4 STR bonuses (AD&D). Plus, the archers had a tendacy to stand out in the open nice and exposed. Go to RQ where the archers have planted stakes in the ground or are behind a wall, and the arrows can incapacitate or kill someone and those tactics don't work. Plus while dead may not stay dead in RQ, Dead is usually deader than in D&D. It isn't so much lack of thought, but thinking under a different system. The problem is, D&D players just don't seem to adapt. People who play other games do adapt, but the D&D crowd somehow feel that there is something fundamentally wrong and just can't wrap their minds around the different way of doing things. But I think there is probably less thinking, too, since the nature of the system is more forgiving. Screw up in RQ//BRP and you probably won't get a chance to bounce back. Screw up in D&D and you'll probably wake up to see the Cleric shaking his head. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMS Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 The favorite past time of teh D&D players I know is to create high-level characters from scratch, spending hours to find the "right" combination of powers. When they play, it's usually "Charge!" whatever opposition they encounter. When playing RQ, they usually die because of this, and thus prefer D&D. This colours my impression of D&D players quite a bit, so I too believe there is more thought going into the actual playing of BRP conpared to D&D. SGL. What are these "powers" and what is "designing" a D&D character! :confused: To me, D&D is 3d6, in order on the character sheet, pick a class that fits your stat, and play. Even with equipment purchasing, a typical character takes less than 5 minutes to create. If the character survives the first adventure (50/50), you might consider giving him/her some personality! OK, we did play enough AD&D to learn to "build" characters by shifting best 3 of 4d6 into stats before picking a character class, and characters became resilient enough at 1st level to give them some rudimentary personality, but not much... Seriously, when I read about modern D&D my eyes glaze over. I know people who spend hours designing characters. In fact, it seems like character design is more of the point than actually playing, from what I've seen. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soltakss Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Linear can be very good too, it actually just needs to give an illusion of choice for the players to enjoy it. The CoC scenarios I've read was f.ex. pretty linear. Gather these clues, go to next step - investigate some more and gather more clues, then final confrontration (wit a go insane possibility!). Yep, they are pretty much all the same. Quote Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. www.soltakss.com/index.html Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Aaron Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 I disagre. Gameplay has changed quite a bit over the years. Room/Monster/Treasure isn't the way people play or games sold anymore. I dunno about how games were sold, but they were never entirely played that way. Go google up "Dave Arneson" and "Blackmoor" - that's the first ever D&D game. Compared to the cliche of KIATIS, Arneson looks like some commie mutant story-gamer. This idea that rpgs were once all about hack and slash and have now evolved into some kind of thespian art form, it's just bollocks. They've always had a bit of thesp, and still have quite a bit of hack. They've just got fancier pictures. Quote Tiwesdæg ClÃewen - adventuring in a world where magic is magical, and monsters are monstrous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Aaron Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Beaucase "back then" that was all there was. Back then 90% of the "Alternate" RPGs out there were variantions of D&D, and the biggest differences in gaming style was iver XP awards. Bollocks. You are confusing your own lack of breadth of experience with a general lack in the gaming industry. In the first decade of roleplaying games there were published and sold for profit (ie, not homebrews with photocopier) at least 141 first edition English language rpgs (I include 1971's Chainmail, combatish precursor to D&D for completeness). A look down the following list will reveal that extraordinarily few of them in any way focused on killing things and taking their stuff. In addition, considerably fewer than "90%" of them were variations of D&D. (1971) Chainmail - (1973) Dungeons and Dragons - (1975) Tunnels and Trolls - (1975) En Garde - (1975) Empire of the Petal Throne - (1975) Boot Hill - (1975) The Complete Warlock - (1976) Uuhraah! - (1976) Bunnies and Burrows - (1976) Starfaring - (1976) Metamorphosis Alpha: Fantastic Role-Playing Game - (1976) Monsters! Monsters! - (1976) Knights of the Round Table - (1977) Bifrost - Volume 1: Faerie ed (1977) L.W.Felstead Ltd (1977) Chivalry and Sorcery - 1st ed (1977) Traveller - 1st ed by Marc Miller (1977) GDW (1977) The Fantasy Trip - Melee ed by Steve Jackson, Howard Thomson (1977) Metagaming (1977) Superhero 2044 - 1st ed by Donald Saxman (1977) Gamescience (1977) Flash Gordon and the Warriors of Mongo - 1st ed by Lin Carter, Scott Bizar (1977) FGU (1977) Dungeons and Dragons - Basic Set 1st ed ed by J. Eric Holmes (1977) (1977) Space Quest - 1st ed by Paul Hume, George Nyhen (1977) Tyr Gamemakers Ltd (1977) Star Patrol - Space Patrol ed by Michael Scott Kurtick, Rockland Russo (1977) Gamescience (1978) Adventures in Fantasy - 1st ed by Dave Arneson, Richard Snider (1978) Excalibre Games Inc. (1978) Dungeons and Dragons, Advanced - 1st ed by Gary Gygax (1978) TSR (1978) Starships and Spacemen - 1st ed by Leonard H. Kanterman (1978) FGU (1978) The Complete Warlock - 1st ed by Robert Cowan, Dave Clark, Kenneth M. Dahl, Nick Smith (1978) Balboa, Inc. (1978) Simian Combat - 1st ed by Marshall Rose, Norman Knight (1978) Avant-Garde Simulations Perspetives (1978) The Infinity System - 1st ed by Derrick Charbonnet, Terry Podgorski (1978) Threshold Games (1978) John Carter, Warlord of Mars - 1st ed by M. S. Matheny (1978) Heritage Models (1978) Legacy - 1st ed by David A. Feldt (1978) Legacy Press (1978) High Fantasy - 1st ed by Jeffrey C. Dillow (1978) Fantasy Productions Inc. (1978) Age of Chivalry - 1st ed by Marshall Rose (1978) Avant-Garde Simulations Perspectives (1978) Gamma World - 1st ed by James M. Ward, Gary Jaquet (1978) TSR (1978) Once Upon a Time in the West - 1st ed by Beck, Spencer (1978) What Price Glory?! - 1st ed by John Dankert, Jim Lauffenburger (1978) self-published (1978) RuneQuest - 1st ed by Steve Perrin, Ray Turney, Steve Henderson, Warren James, Greg Stafford (1978) Chaosium (1978) Star Trek: Adventure Gaming in the Final Frontier - 1st ed by Michael Scott (1978) Heritage Models (1978) Realm of Yolmi - 1st ed by Ken Black, Marshall Rose (1978) Avant-Garde Simulations Perspectives (1979) Buccaneer - 1st ed by Carl Smith (1979) Adversary Games (1979) Heroes - 1st ed by Dave Millard (1979) Tabletop Games (1979) Mortal Combat - 1st ed by David John Morris, Steve Foster, Andrew Murdin (1979) Waynflett House Ltd (UK) (1979) Commando - 1st ed by Eric Goldberg, Greg Costikyan, John Butterfield (1979) SPI (1979) Ysgarth - 1st ed by David Nalle (1979) Ragnarok Press (1979) Villians and Vigilantes - 1st ed by Jeff Dee, Jack Herman ] (1979) Crimson Cutlass - 1st ed by George Rahm, Joseph Hilmer (1979) Better Games (1979) Gangster! - 1st ed by Nick Marinacci, Pete Petrone (1979) FGU (1980) Knights and Magic - 1st ed by Arnold Hendrick (1980) Heritage Models (1980) The Archaereon Game System - Mage ed by Wilf K. Backhaus (1980) Archaereon Games Ltd. (1980) Supergame - 1st ed by Jay Hartlove, Aimee Karklyn (1980) DAG Productions (1980) Skull and Crossbones - 1st ed by Gerald D. Seypura, Anthony LeBoutillier (1980) FGU (1980) Laserburn - 1st ed by Bryan Ansell, Richard Halliwell, Tony Ackland (1980) Tabletop Games (1980) Land of the Rising Sun - 1st ed by Lee Gold (1980) FGU (1980) Star Patrol - 1st ed (1980) (1980) Rolemaster - 1st ed by S. Coleman Charlton, Peter C. Fenlon, Kurt H. Fischer, Terry K. Amthor (1980) Iron Crown Enterprises (1980) Bushido - 1st ed by Paul Hume, Bob Charrette (1980) Tyr / Phoenix Games (1980) Basic Role-Playing - 1st ed by Greg Stafford, Lynn Willis (1980) Chaosium (1980) Castle Perilous - 1st ed by James T. Sheldon (1980) West Wind Simulations (1980) Acquitane - 1st ed by Carl Smith (1980) Adversary Games (1980) Beasts, Men, & Gods - 1st ed by Bill Underwood (1980) Imagination Unlimited Imagination Unlimited The Game Masters (1980) The Atlantean Trilogy: The Arcanum, The Lexicon, The Bestiary - 1st ed by Stephan Michael Sechi, Vernie Taylor (1980) Bard Games (1980) The Morrow Project - 1st ed by Kevin Dockery, Robert Sadler, Richard Tucholka (1980) Timeline, Inc. (1980) Melanda: Land of Mystery - 1st ed by Lee McCormick, John Corradin (1980) Wilmark Dynasty (1980) Dragonquest - 1st ed by Eric Goldberg, David James Ritchie, Edward J. Woods (1980) SPI (1980) Dallas - 1st ed by James F. Dunnigan (1980) SPI (1980) The Hammer of Thor: The Game of Norse Mythology - 1st ed by Joe Angiolillo (1980) Gameshop (1980) KABAL - 1st ed by Ernest T. Hams (1980) Kabal Gaming Systems (1980) Space Opera - 1st ed by Ed Simbalist, A. Mark Ratner, Phil McGregor (1980) FGU (1980) Odysseus - 1st ed by Marshall Rose (1980) FGU (1980) Top Secret - 1st ed by Merle M. Rasmussen (1980) TSR (1981) Fringeworthy - 1st ed by Richard Tucholka (1981) Tri-Tac Games (1981) Wizard's Realm - 1st ed by Niels Erickson, C. Polite, W.G. Murphy (1981) Mystic Swamp (1981) Star Rovers - 1st ed by Stocken, Hoffman, Hoffman, Hargrave, Huey, Lortz (1981) Archive Miniatures and Game Systems (1981) Champions - 1st ed by George MacDonald, Steve Peterson (1981) Aftermath - 1st ed by Bob Charrette, Paul Hume (1981) FGU (1981) Crimefighters - 1st ed by David "Zeb" Cook (1981) TSR (1981) Spawn of Fashan - 1st ed by Kirby Lee Davis (1981) Games of Fashan (1981) The Official Superhero Adventure Game - 1st ed by Brian Phillips (1981) self-published (1981) Weapons and Warriors - 1st ed by Robert Alan Beatty (1981) self-published (1981) Arduin Adventure - 1st ed by David A. Hargrave (1981) Grimoire Games (1981) Wild West - 1st ed by Anthony P. LeBoutillier, Gerald D. Seypura (1981) FGU (1981) Stormbringer - 1st ed by Ken St. Andre, Steve Perrin (1981) Chaosium (1981) The Mechanoid Invasion - 1st ed by Kevin Siembieda (1981) Palladium Books (1981) Spacefarers: Rules for Science Fiction Skirmish Adventures - 1st ed by Bryan Ansell, Richard Halliwell, Tony Ackland, Richard Priestly (1981) Games Workshop (1981) Call of Cthulhu - 1st ed by Sandy Petersen (1981) Chaosium (1981) Heroes of Olympus - 1st ed by B. Dennis Sustare (1981) Task Force Games (1981) Merc - 1st ed by Paul D. Baader, Walter Mark, Lawrence Sangee (1981) FGU (1981) Universe - 1st ed by John H. Butterfield (1981) SPI (1982) Taste My Steel - 1st ed by Don Johnson (1982) Phantasy Network (1982) Second Dawn - 1st ed by Art Wiederhold, George J. Herget (1982) Arrose Enterprises (1982) Simulacron I - 1st ed by Mark Manning (1982) Simulacron I (1982) Gangbusters - 1st ed by Mark Acres, Rick Krebs, Tom Moldvay (1982) TSR (1982) Starleader: Assault - 1st ed by Howard Thompson (1982) Metagaming (1982) Cassiopean Empire - 1st ed by Raymond Norton (1982) Norton Games (1982) M.I.S.S.I.O.N. - 1st ed by Ernest T. Hams (1982) Kabal Gaming Systems (1982) Dawn Patrol - 1st ed by Mike Carr et al. (1982) TSR (1982) Swordbearer - 1st ed by Arnold Hendrick, Dennis Sustare (1982) Heritage Models (1982) Supervillians - 1st ed by Rick Register, R. Vance Buck, Allen D. Eldridge (1982) Task Force Games (1982) Man, Myth, and Magic - 1st ed by Herbie Brennan (1982) Yaquinto (1982) Phase VII - 1st ed by Dennis Drew II (1982) Cheshire Games (1982) FTL:2448 - 1st ed by Richard Tucholka (1982) Tri-Tac Games (1982) Neighborhood - 1st ed (1982) Wheaton Publications (1982) Daredevils - 1st ed by Bob Charrette, Paul Hume (1982) FGU (1982) Element Masters - 1st ed by Kenneth Burridge, Robert Finkbeiner, Kevin Nelson, Brian Pettitt (1982) Escape Ventures (1982) Alma Mater - 1st ed by Steve Davis, Andrew Warden (1982) Oracle Games (1982) Space Infantry - 1st ed by Daniel Douglas Hutto, Roger Allen Esnard (1982) D&R Game Design (1982) Dragon Warriors - 1st ed by Dave Morris, Oliver Johnson (1982) Corgi Books (1982) Pirates and Plunder - 1st ed by Michael S. Matheny (1982) Yaquinto (1982) Recon - 1st ed by Joe F. Martin (1982) RPG Inc. (1982) Drakar Och Demoner - 1st ed (1982) Aventyrspel (1982) Worlds of Wonder - 1st ed by Steve Perrin, Steve Henderson, Gordon Monson, Greg Stafford, Lynn Willis (1982) Chaosium (1982) To Challenge Tomorrow - 1st ed by Dave Nalle (1982) Ragnarok Press (1982) Timeship - 1st ed by Herbie Brennan (1982) Yaquinto (1982) Field Guide to Encounters - 1st ed (1982) Judges Guild (1982) Behind Enemy Lines - 1st ed by William H. Keith, Jr., Jordan Weisman, Ross Babcock, Eric Turn, Steve Turn (1982) FASA (1982) Star Frontiers - 1st ed by "TSR Staff" (1982) TSR (1982) Starfleet Voyages - 1st ed by Michael Scott (1982) Terra Games (1982) Fantasy Wargaming - 1st ed by Bruce Galloway, Mike Hodson-Smith, Nick Lowe, Bruce Quarrie, Paul Sturman (1982) Stein and Day (1982) Inner City - 1st ed by Chris Clark (1982) Inner City (1982) Star Trek - 1st ed by Guy W. McLimore, Greg Poehlein, David Tepool (1982) FASA (1983) Mercenaries, Spies, and Private Eyes - 1st ed by Michael A. Stackpole (1983) Blade (a division of Flying Buffalo) (1983) Timemaster - 1st ed by Mark Acres, Gali Sanchez, Garry Spiegle, Andria Hayday, Smith (1983) Pacesetter (1983) Dragons of Underearth - 1st ed by Keith Gross (1983) Metagaming (1983) Outime - 1st ed by Marc W.D. Tyrrell (1983) Valhalla Simulation Games (1983) Sword's Path: Glory - 1st ed by Barry Nakazano, David McKenzie (1983) Leading Edge (1983) Ringworld - 1st ed by Sherman Kahn, John Hewitt, Lynn Willis, Sandy Petersen, Charlie Krank, Rudy Kraft (1983) Chaosium (1983) Palladium Fantasy Role Playing Game - 1st ed by Kevin Siembieda, Erick Wujcik (1983) Palladium Books (1983) Victorian Adventure - 1st ed by Stephen Smith (1983) Kestrel Design / SKS Distribution (1983) James Bond 007 - 1st ed by Gerard Christopher Klug (1983) Victory Games (1983) Wizard's World - 1st ed by David Silvera, Douglas S. Krull (1983) Fantasy Worlds Unlimited (1983) Roleplayer - 1st ed by Matthew P. King (1983) Roleplayer Enterprises (1983) Bureau 13: Stalking the Night Fantastic - 1st ed by Richard Tucholka, Chris Belting (1983) Tri-Tac Games (1983) Witch Hunt - 1st ed by Paul D. Baader, Roger Buckelew (1983) Statcom Simulations, Inc. (1983) Lands of Adventure - 1st ed by Lee Gold (1983) FGU (1983) Other Suns - 1st ed by Niall Shapero (1983) FGU (1983) Super-Sentinels - 1st ed (1983) Judges Guild (1983) MuggerHunt - 1st ed by Kevin Dockery (1983) Firebird, Ltd. (1983) Mach: The First Colony - 1st ed by Michael Lange (1983) Alliance Publications Ltd. (1983) Droids - 1st ed by Neil Patrick Moore, Derek Stanovsky (1983) Integral Games (1983) Valley of the Pharaohs - 1st ed by Matthew Balent (1983) Palladium Books (1983) Powers and Perils - 1st ed by Richard Snider (1983) Avalon Hill (1983) Swords & Glory - Volume 1, 1st ed ed by M.A.R. Barker (1983) Gamescience (1983) Privateers and Gentlemen - 1st ed by Jon Williams (1983) FGU (1983) Espionage - 1st ed by George MacDonald, Steve Peterson (1983) Hero Games Quote Tiwesdæg ClÃewen - adventuring in a world where magic is magical, and monsters are monstrous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kloster Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Bollocks. You are confusing your own lack of breadth of experience with a general lack in the gaming industry. In the first decade of roleplaying games there were published and sold for profit (ie, not homebrews with photocopier) at least 141 first edition English language rpgs (I include 1971's Chainmail, combatish precursor to D&D for completeness). A look down the following list will reveal that extraordinarily few of them in any way focused on killing things and taking their stuff. In addition, considerably fewer than "90%" of them were variations of D&D. (1971) Chainmail - ... (1983) Espionage - 1st ed by George MacDonald, Steve Peterson (1983) Hero Games Ok, but combined sales of (A)D&D were probably higher than all the other ones combined. And the number of (A)D&D players was greater than the number of non (A)D&D players. So, even if a lot of products were not D&D clones, their presence was quite limited (who remembers having played Bifrost or Superhero 2044, even in this forum were, being 40, I am counted within the young ). And 'Drakar Och Demoner' is not really english . Runequestement votre, Kloster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ars Mysteriorum Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Bollocks. You are confusing your own lack of breadth of experience with a general lack in the gaming industry. In the first decade of roleplaying games there were published and sold for profit (ie, not homebrews with photocopier) at least 141 first edition English language rpgs (I include 1971's Chainmail, combatish precursor to D&D for completeness). A look down the following list will reveal that extraordinarily few of them in any way focused on killing things and taking their stuff. In addition, considerably fewer than "90%" of them were variations of D&D. Hugenormous List I like this fellow. Nicely done! Here's for research. Quote "Men of broader intellect know that there is no sharp distinction betwixt the real and the unreal..." - H.P. Lovecraft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Paul Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 RPGs have changed in the same way computer games have changed - there are more pretty pictures, but the gameplay is pretty much the same. And almost everyone just plays D&D. That was true in 1978, and it's true in 2008. I have never played D&D. Just sayin' Quote __________________ Joseph Paul "Nothing partys like a rental" explains the enduring popularity of prostitution.:eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightshade Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 I have never played D&D. Just sayin' And thus his use of the word "almost". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Bollocks. You are confusing your own lack of breadth of experience with a general lack in the gaming industry. No Kyle, you are assuming that I lack breath of experience. This is the second time you've made an assumption about other people's experience. I actually owned and of played a lot of the games you listed. I can also point out that many of them are not role-playing games. All the ones from Heritage models for example, were minatures games. Hammer of THor was a very extensive board game on Norse Mythology, with something like 1000 different counters. I bought it, and never could find anyone to play it. It was detailed, but it wasn't an RPG. Neither are rules for skirmishes. A good half of your list are games that are not RPGs, but ARE about killing things. Let me ask you a question about you're experience. Wore you gaming during the first decade? I was. I don't think you were because if you had been you would have noted a big difference between the early games of the 70, and the games of the early-to mid 80s where the big changes started to occur. Also, I suspect you are not gaming in the US. Fir, while many of these games did come out. Not all ofd them got into circulation, or were played. For example, I owned the Flash Gordon RPG. I wasn't really an RPG, AND it was a linerar story. The character went through the book in the same order as the episodes of the serial. Everything was predestined. It looks to me like you just copied as list and posted it without any knowledge of the subject matter. I've played Bunnies & Burrows (once). I was linerar. I think I played 2nd edtion, too. In the first decade of roleplaying games there were published and sold for profit (ie, not homebrews with photocopier) at least 141 first edition English language rpgs (I include 1971's Chainmail, combatish precursor to D&D for completeness). A look down the following list will reveal that extraordinarily few of them in any way focused on killing things and taking their stuff. In addition, considerably fewer than "90%" of them were variations of D&D. Chainmail isn't a RPG. It a minatures game at man-to-man scale. THere is no role-playing, just mantures fighting. THe big difference is that unlike most games that preceeded it. In chainmail you could have wizards, elves and dragons. Actualy playing of any of these games, or even reading any of them, as opposed to looking at the titles would prove that indeed they were linear and focused on killing things. For the record, my breadth of experience includes the following: (1971) Chainmail - (1973) Dungeons and Dragons - (1975) Tunnels and Trolls (1975) Boot Hill (1976) Bunnies and Burrows - (1976) Metamorphosis Alpha: Fantastic Role-Playing Game - (1976) Knights of the Round Table (Not an RPG. It's a board game>) (1977) Chivalry and Sorcery - 1st ed (1977) Traveller - 1st ed by Marc Miller (1977) GDW (1977) The Fantasy Trip - Melee ed by Steve Jackson, Howard Thomson (1977) Metagaming (1977) Superhero 2044 - 1st ed by Donald Saxman (1977) Gamescience (1977) Flash Gordon and the Warriors of Mongo - 1st ed by Lin Carter, Scott Bizar (1977) FGU (1977) Dungeons and Dragons - Basic Set 1st ed ed by J. Eric Holmes (1977) (1977) Space Quest - 1st ed by Paul Hume, George Nyhen (1977) Tyr Gamemakers Ltd (1978) Dungeons and Dragons, Advanced - 1st ed by Gary Gygax (1978) TSR (1978) The Complete Warlock - 1st ed by Robert Cowan, Dave Clark, Kenneth M. Dahl, Nick Smith (1978) Balboa, Inc. (Either this one of the 1975 one) (1978) Gamma World - 1st ed by James M. Ward, Gary Jaquet (1978) TSR (which is actually Metamophis Alpha 2nd edtion) (1978) RuneQuest - 1st ed by Steve Perrin, Ray Turney, Steve Henderson, Warren James, Greg Stafford (1978) Chaosium (1979) Ysgarth - 1st ed by David Nalle (1979) Ragnarok Press (1979) Villians and Vigilantes - 1st ed by Jeff Dee, Jack Herman ] (1980) Skull and Crossbones - 1st ed by Gerald D. Seypura, Anthony LeBoutillier (1980) FGU (1980) Land of the Rising Sun - 1st ed by Lee Gold (1980) FGU (1980) Rolemaster - 1st ed by S. Coleman Charlton, Peter C. Fenlon, Kurt H. Fischer, Terry K. Amthor (1980) Iron Crown Enterprises (1980) Bushido - 1st ed by Paul Hume, Bob Charrette (1980) Tyr / Phoenix Games (1980) Basic Role-Playing - 1st ed by Greg Stafford, Lynn Willis (1980) Chaosium (1980) The Atlantean Trilogy: The Arcanum, The Lexicon, The Bestiary - 1st ed by Stephan Michael Sechi, Vernie Taylor (1980) Bard Games (1980) The Morrow Project - 1st ed by Kevin Dockery, Robert Sadler, Richard Tucholka (1980) Timeline, Inc. (1980) Melanda: Land of Mystery - 1st ed by Lee McCormick, John Corradin (1980) Wilmark Dynasty (1980) Dragonquest - 1st ed by Eric Goldberg, David James Ritchie, Edward J. Woods (1980) SPI (1980) The Hammer of Thor: The Game of Norse Mythology - 1st ed by Joe Angiolillo (1980) Gameshop (Not an RPG, as as many of the RPGs you listed) (1980) KABAL - 1st ed by Ernest T. Hams (1980) Kabal Gaming Systems (Argh, the hardest game I even ran. You need a claculator for this one) (1980) Space Opera - 1st ed by Ed Simbalist, A. Mark Ratner, Phil McGregor (1980) FGU (1980) Odysseus - 1st ed by Marshall Rose (1980) FGU (Character only have one stat, and the game is about killing things) (1980) Top Secret - 1st ed by Merle M. Rasmussen (1980) TSR (1981) Fringeworthy - 1st ed by Richard Tucholka (1981) Tri-Tac Games (1981) Wizard's Realm - 1st ed by Niels Erickson, C. Polite, W.G. Murphy (1981) Mystic Swamp (1981) Champions - 1st ed by George MacDonald, Steve Peterson (1981) Aftermath - 1st ed by Bob Charrette, Paul Hume (1981) FGU (1981) Crimefighters - 1st ed by David "Zeb" Cook (1981) TSR (1981) Arduin Adventure - 1st ed by David A. Hargrave (1981) Grimoire Games (1981) Wild West - 1st ed by Anthony P. LeBoutillier, Gerald D. Seypura (1981) FGU (1981) Stormbringer - 1st ed by Ken St. Andre, Steve Perrin (1981) Chaosium (1981) The Mechanoid Invasion - 1st ed by Kevin Siembieda (1981) Palladium Books (1981) Call of Cthulhu - 1st ed by Sandy Petersen (1981) Chaosium (1981) Heroes of Olympus - 1st ed by B. Dennis Sustare (1981) Task Force Games (1981) Merc - 1st ed by Paul D. Baader, Walter Mark, Lawrence Sangee (1981) FGU (1981) Universe - 1st ed by John H. Butterfield (1981) SPI (1982) Gangbusters - 1st ed by Mark Acres, Rick Krebs, Tom Moldvay (1982) TSR (1982) Swordbearer - 1st ed by Arnold Hendrick, Dennis Sustare (1982) Heritage Models (1982) Man, Myth, and Magic - 1st ed by Herbie Brennan (1982) Yaquinto (1982) Phase VII - 1st ed by Dennis Drew II (1982) Cheshire Games (1982) FTL:2448 - 1st ed by Richard Tucholka (1982) Tri-Tac Games (1982) Neighborhood - 1st ed (1982) Wheaton Publications (1982) Daredevils - 1st ed by Bob Charrette, Paul Hume (1982) FGU (1982) Pirates and Plunder - 1st ed by Michael S. Matheny (1982) Yaquinto (1982) Recon - 1st ed by Joe F. Martin (1982) RPG Inc. (1982) Worlds of Wonder - 1st ed by Steve Perrin, Steve Henderson, Gordon Monson, Greg Stafford, Lynn Willis (1982) Chaosium (1982) To Challenge Tomorrow - 1st ed by Dave Nalle (1982) Ragnarok Press (1982) Timeship - 1st ed by Herbie Brennan (1982) Yaquinto (1982) Behind Enemy Lines - 1st ed by William H. Keith, Jr., Jordan Weisman, Ross Babcock, Eric Turn, Steve Turn (1982) FASA (1982) Star Frontiers - 1st ed by "TSR Staff" (1982) TSR (1982) Starfleet Voyages - 1st ed by Michael Scott (1982) Terra Games (1982) Fantasy Wargaming - 1st ed by Bruce Galloway, Mike Hodson-Smith, Nick Lowe, Bruce Quarrie, Paul Sturman (1982) Stein and Day (1982) Star Trek - 1st ed by Guy W. McLimore, Greg Poehlein, David Tepool (1982) FASA (1983) Mercenaries, Spies, and Private Eyes - 1st ed by Michael A. Stackpole (1983) Blade (a division of Flying Buffalo) (1983) Timemaster - 1st ed by Mark Acres, Gali Sanchez, Garry Spiegle, Andria Hayday, Smith (1983) Pacesetter (1983) Ringworld - 1st ed by Sherman Kahn, John Hewitt, Lynn Willis, Sandy Petersen, Charlie Krank, Rudy Kraft (1983) Chaosium (1983) Palladium Fantasy Role Playing Game - 1st ed by Kevin Siembieda, Erick Wujcik (1983) Palladium Books (1983) James Bond 007 - 1st ed by Gerard Christopher Klug (1983) Victory Games (1983) Wizard's World - 1st ed by David Silvera, Douglas S. Krull (1983) Fantasy Worlds Unlimited (1983) Bureau 13: Stalking the Night Fantastic - 1st ed by Richard Tucholka, Chris Belting (1983) Tri-Tac Games (1983) Witch Hunt - 1st ed by Paul D. Baader, Roger Buckelew (1983) Statcom Simulations, Inc. (1983) Lands of Adventure - 1st ed by Lee Gold (1983) FGU (1983) Other Suns - 1st ed by Niall Shapero (1983) FGU (1983) Powers and Perils - 1st ed by Richard Snider (1983) Avalon Hill (1983) Privateers and Gentlemen - 1st ed by Jon Williams (1983) FGU (1983) Espionage - 1st ed by George MacDonald, Steve Peterson (1983) Hero Games Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trifletraxor Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 For the record, my breadth of experience includes the following: (1971) Chainmail - (1973) Dungeons and Dragons - (1975) Tunnels and Trolls (1975) Boot Hill ... (and the list just goes on and on!) :shocked: That was a long list. Here's mine: D&D - (for 2-3 months, the GM's mother brought us cookies and milk every session!) Vampire the Masquerade - (once, both tabletop and live, gee those players were weird) RuneQuest - (so much that me and my friends use RQ terminology and rules to interpret RL events) Call of Cthulhu - (on selected occations) and soon: Basic Roleplaying! Impressive, huh? SGL. Quote Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub! 116/420. High Priest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehobbit Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Looks like I'm the only one who played Thieves Guild. Go Pixies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 :shocked: That was a long list. Here's mine: D&D - (for 2-3 months, the GM's mother brought us cookies and milk every session!) Vampire the Masquerade - (once, both tabletop and live, gee those players were weird) RuneQuest - (so much that me and my friends use RQ terminology and rules to interpret RL events) Call of Cthulhu - (on selected occations) and soon: Basic Roleplaying! Impressive, huh? SGL. It's not a contest. IMO it is usually better to play a campaign with one game than to play 50,000 one shots. But my overall experience with RPGs is probably as extensive as Drohem's. I've played a lot of RPGs over nearly 30 years. Most of those games metntioned I still have. I used to game at the local gaming store, and twice a week would check out the new RPG systems. For a long time, I would buy a new RPG each week, and probably had most of the RPGs on the market. Probably kept in the lead until the 90s, when supplments started coming out a lot faster and for a lot more games. For someone to said I'm wrong about something is fine. For someone to say that I "lack breath of experience" with RPGs is incorrect. For anyone to do so, they should at least have enough experience with the games mentioned to back it up. I don't think Klye has that. It;s liek the argument over RQ magic that got ignited in the BRP/MRQ differences thread. It got heated and long not because people didn't know what they were talking about, but because they did. Many had different experiences, or used variant rules that may not have applied outside of their own experience, but they knew what they were talking about. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ars Mysteriorum Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 :shocked: That was a long list. Here's mine: D&D - (for 2-3 months, the GM's mother brought us cookies and milk every session!) Vampire the Masquerade - (once, both tabletop and live, gee those players were weird) RuneQuest - (so much that me and my friends use RQ terminology and rules to interpret RL events) Call of Cthulhu - (on selected occations) and soon: Basic Roleplaying! Impressive, huh? SGL. WHAT!? I didn't get cookies and milk! This is lame. I feel cheated and wronged. We got Totino's Arterial Nightmare Rolls instead ONCE in a while. I actually cut my gaming teeth on AD&D 2nd and then Vampire LARP. And yes, weird people they were. I quickly scampered back to the more "normal" (attaching the word "normal" to RPG players makes me snort my coffee out my nose) and comforting folds of conventional D&D. And had some of the best times of my youth and adolescence. Gaming will never be as fun as it was back then when there were no outside pressures other than having a good time. Nowadays the group still gets together, but have haggard faces and even 1000 yard stares in some cases. They still talk about high school games like they happened yesterday instead of almost a decade ago. Needless to say, it got a LITTLE creepy seeing them again. The one with the thousand yard stare is going through divorce after hearing that his wife was pregnant by another man. He is also, apparently, now a cross-dresser. I would have no problem with any of these things if he wasn't in such a gloomy state of denial. That and he prefers WoW to hanging out with friends now. My attempts to be there for as a friend for him were rebuffed with uncomfortable periods of silence and eventually being completely written off outside of horridly boring game sessions. Depressing. I ended up leaving my old friends who I had had so much fun with in the past. They just never grew up, and strangely, because of that the fun died. I think gaming has partially changed not simply because of the types of games coming out, but the changing culture of our society. I think that due to the feeling of loss of control that our highly corporate/systematic environment has created and the emphasis on success, when people play games they don't want insurmountable obstacles. They don't want to lose their nifty magical item. They want to win. Failures have turned into minor setbacks rather than interesting fixtures of the story (mechanic-wise, GMs are always the variable) and a rigid rule structure has been created that inhibits creative solutions to problems. A majority of problems in today's games have answers that simply lie in your equipment, skill, and/or spell lists. Failure has become a negative thing. Too negative. No one sees it as an interesting thing to overcome, or simply an extension of learning and experience. It's a BAD thing now. Failure is wrong and undesirable and not fun. Furthermore, having a personality is secondary to winning. Unless it's a winning personality, then we have a statistic for that. Yes, I'm bitter. And this is yet another rant. This is what happens when you post at work (probably why corporatism got tossed in there). I have yet to play Talislanta or Call of Cthulhu successfully with a group. Part of me is scared to, lest it be torn apart by people seeking only to win rather than have fun. Yes, I know those terms are subjective, but after watching people play WoW (World of Warcraft), where people get angry with each other if they don't win and hit one or two buttons repeatedly (and yet this is still called a game, even an RPG), I fail to see how this is fun. It looks more like... work. Wow, that got dreary. Ummm... think of fuzzy kittens! And BRP coming out! Yay BRP! Quote "Men of broader intellect know that there is no sharp distinction betwixt the real and the unreal..." - H.P. Lovecraft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Ars, I think you have a point about the changing culture. People have a tendency to treat things as win-loose that aren't. A good deal of the philosophy behind Aikido is based on that. We see things in terms of "winners" and "losers" where the term doesn't apply. Take a look at how people look at their local sports teams. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ars Mysteriorum Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Ars, I think you have a point about the changing culture. People have a tendency to treat things as win-loose that aren't. A good deal of the philosophy behind Aikido is based on that. We see things in terms of "winners" and "losers" where the term doesn't apply. Take a look at how people look at their local sports teams. I agree with the idea of no winners or losers. Those terms are subjectively defined. I wish more people would apply that philosophy not only to their games, but life as well. Quote "Men of broader intellect know that there is no sharp distinction betwixt the real and the unreal..." - H.P. Lovecraft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 I agree with the idea of no winners or losers. Those terms are subjectively defined. I wish more people would apply that philosophy not only to their games, but life as well. Unfortunately that is due to business. There has been a tendency in business to look at all of life and a "survival of the fittest", ":kill or be killed" point of view. It's split over in many other areas. It is one reason why the US government has been so ineffective. Many politicians are/were businessmen. Putting a competitor out of business might be good from a business point of view, but putting industries in State X because you are in State Y doesn't help the country. It's like fighting for a seat in first class while the entire plane is plummeting to the ground. I used to see a lot of this while I was working in at a hospital. There was a lot of backstabbing, and a feeling that it was alright to get screwed as long as you knew someone who was betting screwed worse. Not everything is a competition. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trifletraxor Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 And had some of the best times of my youth and adolescence. Gaming will never be as fun as it was back then when there were no outside pressures other than having a good time. Try out Stormwalk Mtn. & Fjallhallenberg Castle for RQ (we played those sdirectly after each other as the group got lost on the mountain) - I gamed it about a year ago (or was it two? maybe three?) and it's still the campaign we talk most about. It took a lot of character lives, but was a lot of fun! SGL. Quote Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub! 116/420. High Priest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soltakss Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 What, no Car Wars? You can't claim to be experienced in Roleplaying if you haven't played Car Wars. None of this rubbish about playing a Magic User, a Troll or a Lord of Chaos, in Car Wars you could play tanks or 18 wheelers with bulldozer attachments. Now, that's roleplaying. Quote Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. www.soltakss.com/index.html Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 What, no Car Wars? You can't claim to be experienced in Roleplaying if you haven't played Car Wars. None of this rubbish about playing a Magic User, a Troll or a Lord of Chaos, in Car Wars you could play tanks or 18 wheelers with bulldozer attachments. Now, that's roleplaying. Transformers the RPG. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMS Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 What, no Car Wars? You can't claim to be experienced in Roleplaying if you haven't played Car Wars. None of this rubbish about playing a Magic User, a Troll or a Lord of Chaos, in Car Wars you could play tanks or 18 wheelers with bulldozer attachments. Now, that's roleplaying. Nah, that's literally ROLLplaying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Nah, that's literally ROLLplaying. Ow! That actually hurt. Ow! ow! ow! Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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