Lhankor Mhy the son of Yelm?

[zoomzoombug]

If Lhankor Mhy is Buserian, and Buserian is among the sons of Yelm, does that mean Lhankor Mhy is a son of Yelm?

I understand Gloranthan gods can have contradictory parentages, but the implication that Lhankor Mhy is a piece of Yelm seems important and unexplored. 
 

Maybe GRoY is just inaccurate in numbering Buserian among the sons.

[Jens]

From the Well https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/lhankor-mhy-in-central-genertela/ -

Quote

Isn’t Buserian the 3rd son of Yelm?

Lhankor Mhy is sometimes said to be a son of Acos and Orenoar, sometimes of Yelm. Doesn’t really matter, as both genealogies convey truths.

Remember, there is no planet called Buserian in the sky. Which is raises some big questions about Plentonius’ genealogies, doesn’t it.

Edited Saturday at 12:33 AM by Jens

[zoomzoombug]

19 minutes ago, Jens said:

From the Well https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/lhankor-mhy-in-central-genertela/ -

Ah, thank you.

now who is Zator, who Buserian replaced? And who is Buserian?

[Jens]

Zator is a son of Yelm, and is associated with a celestial object. First into the Pit, he doesn’t seem to be worshipped. 

Buserian is the Yelmic name for the entity known to the Orlanthi and Malkioni as Lhankor Mhy. 

[John Biles]

Lhankor Mhy is both Yelm's son and Mostal's son.  Therefore, Yelm and Mostal made Lhankor Mhy in a prototype of the tech Dwarves use to reproduce.

 

[metcalph]

Zator is probably related to Dayzatar and Zaytenera(s), a face of the Red Goddess.  Part of the problem with Plentonius's genealogies is that of the Ten sons of Yelm

1. Two seem to be descended from Dayzatar and Lodril
2. The Pelandans believe they were the children of Entekos before Brightface started shining
3. There's a Dara Happan heresy - that Plentonius seems to have been aware of - that connects them to the Dragon Burbustus - Yelm probably slew the Dark Dragon and from its corpse liberated the planets.

An interesting feature of Buserian's name is that Bus is the Dara Happan word for Cow.  So his name could really be a title meaning the the "Marker of Cow(skins)" referring to their early methods of record keeping.  My theory is that after Dayzatar retreated beyond the Sky (courtesy of Umath), the Buserian were those whose strove to mantain contact with him through astrology and record keeping.  Eventually their description somehow became the name of their God.  If anything, the Buseri would say that they worship Dayzatar as he once was and not now is.  

[zoomzoombug]

8 hours ago, metcalph said:

Zator is probably related to Dayzatar and Zaytenera(s), a face of the Red Goddess.  Part of the problem with Plentonius's genealogies is that of the Ten sons of Yelm

1. Two seem to be descended from Dayzatar and Lodril
2. The Pelandans believe they were the children of Entekos before Brightface started shining
3. There's a Dara Happan heresy - that Plentonius seems to have been aware of - that connects them to the Dragon Burbustus - Yelm probably slew the Dark Dragon and from its corpse liberated the planets.

An interesting feature of Buserian's name is that Bus is the Dara Happan word for Cow.  So his name could really be a title meaning the the "Marker of Cow(skins)" referring to their early methods of record keeping.  My theory is that after Dayzatar retreated beyond the Sky (courtesy of Umath), the Buserian were those whose strove to mantain contact with him through astrology and record keeping.  Eventually their description somehow became the name of their God.  If anything, the Buseri would say that they worship Dayzatar as he once was and not now is.  

Would that make Lhankor Mhy Dayzatar or a manifestation/emanation of him?

[Joerg]

15 hours ago, metcalph said:

An interesting feature of Buserian's name is that Bus is the Dara Happan word for Cow.  So his name could really be a title meaning the the "Marker of Cow(skins)" referring to their early methods of record keeping. 

My only doubt about this is the use of cow skins for writing where papyrus is available.

My translation of his name would be sacrificer of bulls (or cows), a common low priestly role.

Sky lore might still be involved. Zator gave birth to the stars. Buserian keeps the records.

[metcalph]

15 hours ago, zoomzoombug said:

Would that make Lhankor Mhy Dayzatar or a manifestation/emanation of him?

I would say he was a manifestation of Orenoar built by the Dwarves to fill her vacancy.  Whether Lhankorings can join Dayzatar is something that depends on what the Dayzatar cult writeup says.  I suspect from mention of the Rays of Piercing Truth (Lunar Way p95) that Illumination is a requirement.

[Darius West]

On 6/15/2024 at 10:29 AM, zoomzoombug said:

If Lhankor Mhy is Buserian, and Buserian is among the sons of Yelm, does that mean Lhankor Mhy is a son of Yelm?

I understand Gloranthan gods can have contradictory parentages, but the implication that Lhankor Mhy is a piece of Yelm seems important and unexplored. 
 

Maybe GRoY is just inaccurate in numbering Buserian among the sons.

No.  Lhankor Mhy is the son of Acos and Orenoar.  Buserian is a different deity with similar interests, who should never have been confused with Lhankor Mhy in my opinion.  I hope to see Buserian properly fleshed out in the Sun Pantheon book in the future.

Edited 20 hours ago by Darius West

[Joerg]

45 minutes ago, Darius West said:

No.  Lhankor Mhy is the son of Acos and Orenoar.  Buserian is a different deity with similar interests, who should never have been confused with Lhankor Mhy in my opinion.  I hope to see Buserian properly fleshed out in the Sun Pantheon book in the future.

Buserian is a different incarnation of Lhankor Mhy, as is Tadenit (one of the Malkioni Founders), and probably others (especially in the East, but also among the urban Agimori). By their different associations they are somewhat separate entities, which may be tested as different under certain circumstances, but their runic identity is the same, and as a consequence their magic overlaps greatly. Cult structure and role in their respective societies might be different. Hardly any Orlanthi Lhankor Mhy has the same grounding in Celestial Lore as the Buseri have by default. Hardly any Buserian initiate understands Orlanthi lawspeaking through cases of precedence without remedial studies. The secrets of writing magical tomes on the living skin of flayed humans have (mostly) been lost when the Vadeli victims allied with the Mostali against the Tadeniti.

 

There is nothing wrong with redefining a cult as published in CoRQ for the cultural context you play in. You might even add a secondary rune, like Fire for Buserian when it comes to Starseers.

[Jeff]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

No.  Lhankor Mhy is the son of Acos and Orenoar.  Buserian is a different deity with similar interests, who should never have been confused with Lhankor Mhy in my opinion.  I hope to see Buserian properly fleshed out in the Sun Pantheon book in the future.

Given that Buserian is a Pelorian name for what the Theyalans call Lhankor Mhy, I think you are going to be waiting a long time. 

[Jeff]

Of course, some of the divine genealogy questions might just be that Plentonius (and his generation of scribes) absolutely needed the Knowing God to be the son of Yelm for mundane reasons. They associated him with a lost planet (not present in the heavens) and convinced themselves of this. By the Second Age, their concerns were not relevant, and Buserian became the son of Acos and Orenoar, and any planetary angle was allowed to disappear. The word "buseri" remained, but it means "scribe".

[metcalph]

According to my knowledge, I make out the following extant cults of the Knowing God

Lhankor Mhy.  We all know what he's like.  He's apparently worshipped in Fonrit - there's a knowledge temple in Abbakar Guide p555 and there are no knowledge gods among the Glorious Ones. I like to think the Pamaltelan worshippers of Lhankor Mhy ascribe to the  teachings of the Lord of the World's Knowledge (CoR: Earth Goddesses p116) and seek the Pamalt Rune rather than the Sky. 

Irrippi Ontor.  Sure there will be some sages who say they worship Burserian instead but any differences will be small.  More depends on what the cult of Dayzatar is like.

Chaquandarath.  Worshipped primarily in the Eastern Isles, although I like to think that the cult has migrated to other parts east, such as Teleos and Maslo.  They do not concern themselves with worldly knowledge but that of the High Gods and making them known to the others.  This doesn't mean that the Masloi and the Teshnans would know Vithelan names but the knowledge priests of those lands would use the local names of similar gods in their teachings, such as Cronisper or Zitro Argon.

(Zitro Argon): Described as the God of Ascetics.  Much depends on the Dayzatar cult writeup and how his cult interacts with scribal gods.

Vashanti:  Worshipped in Kralorela.  IMO he's not so concerned with astrology or the aquisition of knowledge but with administration being more like Mandarins.  His sorcery spells would be spells like Count, Assay and Weigh.  Thus they could count the number of people in a city, weigh the amount of rice in the fields or assay the amount of precious metal in a vein.   Some may have been imported to Peloria (LW p79)

 

[Akhôrahil]

18 hours ago, Darius West said:

I hope to see Buserian properly fleshed out in the Sun Pantheon book in the future.

It seems you will have to do this on your own, but I think it makes a lot of sense. Even if Buserian = Lhankor Mhy, that doesn't mean that The Cult of Lhankor Mhy = The Cult of Buserian - there can be all kinds of differences in worship, mythology, theology, magical access, and so on.

In the ancient world, maybe you decide that Jupiter Optimus Maximus, Zeus Lykaios, Zeus-Ammon and Hadad are all actually ultimately the same transcendent entity. But it seems odd to me to think that you only have to write up a single cult that covers all of them - these cults are very different in practice. "The Cult of Orlanth" is as though we had a "Cult of *Dyḗus ph₂tḗr". Maybe it's useful as a rules construct, but...

Edited 1 hour ago by Akhôrahil