Chorpa Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Well now when I have started out BRP Fantasy campaign I have been looking how to apply the wealth level system. The book to have two major suggestions, first is to give one depending on profession and the other is to tie it to the status skill. I decided to do both when you create a character you get a wealth level from the profession but with the Wealth Cap from the Status skill in place. So in a normal game where I allow a max of 75% in Status (If taken as Profession skill) the Wealth Cap is Affluent. This is fine by me since it's a high wealth level by itself leaving Wealthy for Kings and really powerful people and players something to strive for. After the game as started the Wealth level is tied to the status level so if you increase or decrease it, the wealth level can do the same. I also use the suggestions from In Search of the Trollslayer where you can turn in acquired money into a single use wealth level. Have also been thinking about allowing money to be spent on acquiring experience checks for the Status skill and time equal to normal Research/Training required to gain a experience check. (100 gp/experience check). With the motivation that spending extra money on living extra lavishly should have a chance to make people take notice and there forth giving a chance to increase status. I am curious though on how other people apply and use wealth levels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rust Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 I am curious though on how other people apply and use wealth levels? I prefer currency to abstract wealth levels, but when I use wealth levels I do it as you described it. The only difference is perhaps that I also use cultural diffe- rences, the Affluent character from a tribe of poor desert nomads has a different kind of wealth (e.g. lots of goats instead of lots of coins) and is less wealthy out- side of his culture's realm than the Affluent character from a city of merchants (e.g. lots of coins, but not a single goat), who may in turn find that the nomads do not accept coin and consider him a poor fool who burdens himself with metal when he travels into the desert. Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogspawner Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 I am curious though on how other people apply and use wealth levels? Ignore 'em and use cash values. (And curse publications that cop out and only give 'wealth levels' for stuff). Quote Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chorpa Posted April 28, 2012 Author Share Posted April 28, 2012 (edited) Ignore 'em and use cash values. (And curse publications that cop out and only give 'wealth levels' for stuff). That was actually my plan at first (including the cursing ) and use the cash values from Classic Fantasy. Thats how we have done so far in other BRP games (Aces High for example). But when we played BRP Rome we gave it a go using wealth levels. And we discovered that it have pros and cons. I decided to do a combination where you can still acquire objects and money the usual way and then use them for wealth/value levels when trading. And as rust suggested its easy to add or reduce depending on culture and other factors which goes fast when you don't have to bother about the actual monetary value. In the future I might use the Arms of Legend book as equipment guide instead or stick to the plan on using Classic Fantasy's equipment list. From what I have seen just scimming through Arms of Legend it looks to be usable as is. Or I might just wait for your favorite upcoming game Magic World before I make that decision. Edited April 28, 2012 by Chorpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosenMcStern Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 With the motivation that spending extra money on living extra lavishly should have a chance to make people take notice and there forth giving a chance to increase status. Good idea. In general, Wealth level and Status, as they are abstract concepts, are more difficult to use in game. People may want to use currency instead if their games are shorter or more light-hearted. Most Alephtar publications use Wealth levels (and now I finally understand where all those curses come from - I was particularly amazed at the frogs in my bathroom, it looked like they spawned from the basin or something similar) but for "Kidnapping in Al-Halisa" I decided to leave everything in coins, as this adventure is targeted at players who enjoy standard "quests in search of loot and glory". "The Zone" will have wealth levels, for reasons that will be clear when the supplement is available. However, wealth levels do have several advantages. The first is exactly what you mentioned, that it makes characters behave like they actually would (i.e. they will SPEND all those stashes of money instead of hoarding them). Using the old "You risk vermin and disease if you sleep in that poor inn" trick to force players to do what their heroes would actually do, that is living comfortably within their means, was never my favourite solution. Wealth levels also allow you to simulate your character's daily job without actually running all the microeconomics, and your solution of using cash gained to attempt a wealth level increase is a good idea 8to incorporate loot from adventures into this abstract model. The second advantage is that it makes things easier when wealth is moved from one culture to another. This requires a very good table of "cultural distance" for your setting, but it works rather well. Especially because it can be easily linked to the same penalties used for languages. In most cases, they will be similar. If you are using your wealth in a country that is culturally similar to yours, it will suffer a small penalty (-10% or -20% because of transaction fees, money exchange, etc.) but it will work. If you go somewhere with a very different culture, your wealth, as well as your ability to communicate, might drop to zero. You might also use your Knowledge of that particular culture as your chance of converting some of your wealth to a format that is better suited to where you are going. A Knowledge (Nomadic Culture) roll may determine that your Civilized Merchant guessed that he had to convert his cash into metal weapons or cattle before going to the desert, without the need to have the player understand the reasons why this was a good idea. Or you might use the skill as a complimentary skill to offset the penalty for cross-culture usage of Status and Wealth. With all its details, the ultra-complete price list in GURPS fail to be so useful, because it forces you to convert every price to modern US dollars before considering what it could cost in the currency used by a different culture, something that might be easy for an economist but a PITA for your Average Joe GM. You see, the price list solution may be the best one in a single-setting game, but for a generic system the Wealth level mechanics is way better. Quote Proud member of the Evil CompetitionTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rampant Gamer Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Great discussion thus far, but it raises a question for me - I'm looking into a Traveller style game, and money and economics are very important there, in terms of buying and selling cargos and paying your monthly mortgage and upkeep on a ship for a trading campaign. Yet it seems like it would benefit from the abstract notion of wealth, and the ability to parlay that into some other figure based on the world you're visiting. Has anyone else delved into this discussion, or does that particular kind of scenario demand hard and fast prices, and the universal "credit" as a unit of measure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rust Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 I think it should be possible to combine a wealth level system and a currency system, similar to the way it is done in the new Pavis - Gateway to Adventu- re supplement for HeroQuest. The wealth level system could be used to deal with the everyday economics (monthly wages, lifestyle expenses, etc.), whi- le a currency system could be used for the trade elements of the campaign. It would require a system to convert money into wealth levels, but it should not be too difficult to handle this. Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 I think it should be possible to combine a wealth level system and a currency system, similar to the way it is done in the new Pavis - Gateway to Adventu- re supplement for HeroQuest. The wealth level system could be used to deal with the everyday economics (monthly wages, lifestyle expenses, etc.), whi- le a currency system could be used for the trade elements of the campaign. It would require a system to convert money into wealth levels, but it should not be too difficult to handle this. But why would anybody want to? Wouldn't it be better to use one or the other? Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rust Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 But why would anybody want to ? For example because it is somewhat boring to play the accountant for everyday expenses like food, drink, clothes and such, which could be handled with the abstract method of a wealth / lifestyle level, while in a trade campaign it can be fun to bargain for a few percent more or less, which can better be handled with a currency. However, this is just one way to handle it, personally I prefer a currency system with a fixed monthly lifestyle expense of the characters. Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 For example because it is somewhat boring to play the accountant for everyday expenses like food, drink, clothes and such, which could be handled with the abstract method of a wealth / lifestyle level, while in a trade campaign it can be fun to bargain for a few percent more or less, which can better be handled with a currency. However, this is just one way to handle it, personally I prefer a currency system with a fixed monthly lifestyle expense of the characters. Okay, I can see what you mean. But it is possible to incoprate trade into a wealth level system. For instance, the trade results could give bonus wealth levels that could be spent to raise wealth temporarily. I still think an one or the other method is better than using two different system at the same time. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosenMcStern Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 Okay, I can see what you mean. But it is possible to incoprate trade into a wealth level system. For instance, the trade results could give bonus wealth levels that could be spent to raise wealth temporarily. I still think an one or the other method is better than using two different system at the same time. Nevertheless, there are moments when knowing the actual price of an item may be useful. For instance, when a fighter designs his own suit of armour, or when you hire a magician to enchant something for you. Personally, I prefer using a Status roll for these (which subsumes also the chance that a master crafter or an arcanist will consider you worhy of his special services), but there are people who might want to compute an actual price in currency in this case. Quote Proud member of the Evil CompetitionTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrJealousy Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 (edited) I always saw the wealth stat in BRP as a guide to the characters wage/starting cash. In Aces High I gave characters a Wealth level and then a randomly rolled cash value based on that wealth. For me it gave me a set of guidelines which meant that if your character was of a particular wealth level I would know approximately how much cash they would have. I agree that wealth levels work great for generic settings and systems, but what the players really want to know when they roll up their character is 'how much cash have I got in my pocket!' I don't really attribute much weight to Status in (most) of my games because that tends to lead towards a set of concepts aimed at countries and governments and politics and I (generally) prefer to keep my concepts small and focused on the characters... Edited April 29, 2012 by MrJealousy Quote Mr Jealousy has returned to reality! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansophy Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 I use the CoFE rules. You have a wealth level and there is a table in the book that tells you how much "Cash" you get for that (even on a monthly income). That way you can use both economics and it is really easy to handle. Sometimes it is better to use hard cash, sometimes the wealth level describes things better. Generally I do not like a cash system as it bogs down some games to be penny-counting unnecessary complicating dull session time. And I do not like to haggle about 10 "cash" when the object is worth 1000 cash. Unnecessary as it does not add anything to the story. Quote My Uploads - BRP and new: Revolution D100 Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 Nevertheless, there are moments when knowing the actual price of an item may be useful. For instance, when a fighter designs his own suit of armour, or when you hire a magician to enchant something for you. Personally, I prefer using a Status roll for these (which subsumes also the chance that a master crafter or an arcanist will consider you worhy of his special services), but there are people who might want to compute an actual price in currency in this case. Sure. But I think using two monetary systems (wealth levels and currency) just adds more complexity and trouble. I think it is best to pick one method for a campaign (whatever that may be) and stick with it. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankcam Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I have run a Fantasy campaign for the last few years which used both Status and Loot, and it seemed to go quite well actually. I used the Status skill for two uses: Influence and Wealth. 'Influence' was a modifier to social rolls, with characters receiving +/- 10% per Social Class level difference from the person they were interacting with. This was a rule that brought Social Class to the fore, and I thought it was quite apt for the setting. 'Wealth' rolls were used to determine the chance of resources on hand to secure everyday services, such as meals, accommodation, trade services, travel costs etc. Here I asked for a Status d100% roll, with the character receiving a +/- 10% modifier to their Status roll per level of difference in regards to the wealth level of the services they required. This was quite useful for everyday expenses, and saved everyone checking their bank balance every five minutes. In addition to this I had 'Loot' which was coinage, barter goods etc which had a cash value, and that was acquired in game. Loot was used to pay for 'additional expenses', that is, something outside of what I used Wealth rolls for. This mainly involved buying specific equipment, weapons, armour, spell training, temple donations etc. The above system worked well for my Fantasy campaign, it didn't feel clumsy or anything, and it really brought Social Class issues to the fore. In my current 'Pulp Cthulhu' game I'm using the same rules, except I don't worry too much about giving Loot a monetary value. The idea of acquiring loot and equipment for financial gain is much more central in a fantasy setting, whereas Loot in my current setting mainly involves finding old tomes or accessing weird science gadgets etc so it's not stuff that can be used for currency generally. Anyway, the above concepts have worked for me for the past 2 - 3 years or so. Quote " Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerallKahla Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Back when I was running RuneQuest, the monetary donations that players made to their temples grew their ransom. This kind of Status-on-the-sly mirrors Mankcam's use of Status, in the opposite direction. I like your use of Wealth rolls, Mankcam! Interesting. Need to decide how to get this documented so it's accessible to my players. Quote Emerging from my Dark Age... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skunkape Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) I use real pricing lists too as most of my players don't like how abstract the wealth level rules are. Plus, with a price list, it allows me to figure out how much of a monetary reward I want to give my players as far as session goals are concerned. Edited May 1, 2012 by Skunkape Wanted to add another thought. Quote Skunk - 285/420 BRP book You wanna be alright you gotta walk tall Long Beach Dub Allstars & Black Eyed Peas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chorpa Posted May 2, 2012 Author Share Posted May 2, 2012 Well for those that use a monetary system. Where do you gather the prices from? I have been thinking about using either GURPS Low-Tech, Arms of Legend or the equipment list from Classic Fantasy so far. Could use the price list from Chronicles of Future Earth too, but those prices seem to be a bit scewed because of the rarity of metal in that setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankcam Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 (edited) Considering my Fantasy campaign was set in Glorantha, I used the prices from the AH RQ3 rulebook and also from the Arms of Legend supplement book (well, I actually used its previous edition, MRQ2 Arms & Equipment). I would certainly see no issue using a good resource like GURPS Low-Tech for pricing if that title is in your collection. Edited May 2, 2012 by Mankcam Quote " Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rust Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Well for those that use a monetary system. Where do you gather the prices from? For fantasy settings I normally use the price lists of the Harnmaster system, they are by far the best researched price lists for pseudo-medieval settings, although the material for GURPS Low Tech is also pretty good. For science fiction settings I prefer the various GURPS books and supplements, they have fewer strange quirks than those of Traveller, which do not handle an economy with diffe- rent technology levels well. However, the new version of 2300 AD is based upon the Mon- goose Traveller system, but seems to handle the economy somewhat better, and depen- ding on the quality of its next few supplements I may use it for my current setting. Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skunkape Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 I used to spend a lot of time researching pricing using either current games or supplements but recently for some of my fantasy games I've been using real world prices, but converting them to the monetary system I use. Where a silver coin, the Guild, is worth $1.00 U.S. This gives my players an easy reference and gives me an easy wage standard. Since everyone knows that minimum wage is roughly $7.50 / hour and the cost of a beer is roughly $2.50 to $3.00, when I tell them that their patron wants to hire them to do a job that will take about 1 day's time and he's paying them 100 silver each, they know that's better than a common laborer should get. If they go in a bar and the bar tender wants 1 silver for an ale, they know either it's pretty bad beer or it's watered down. So I'm not really concerned with historical accuracy personally, I'm looking to make running my game fairly easy and fun for the players. Oh and I'm not finding fault with those GMs who want that accuracy! If that's how you roll, great, it's just not how I roll or role as the case may be! Quote Skunk - 285/420 BRP book You wanna be alright you gotta walk tall Long Beach Dub Allstars & Black Eyed Peas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogspawner Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Where a silver coin, the Guild, is worth $1.00 U.S. ... If they go in a bar and the bar tender wants 1 silver for an ale... Yep, this is pretty much the principle used by the famous "Ale Standard", in a White Dwarf article back in The Good Old Days. Except then it was 1sp = £1, and the price of a beer was 50p, so a 1sp ale should've been mighty fine... sigh. Quote Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 If they go in a bar and the bar tender wants 1 silver for an ale, they know either it's pretty bad beer or it's watered down. That might not be the case. Prices for goods do not always stay the same relative to each other. For instance back in the 70s when the minimum wage was around $5.15, fifty cent beers were common. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skunkape Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 That might not be the case. Prices for goods do not always stay the same relative to each other. For instance back in the 70s when the minimum wage was around $5.15, fifty cent beers were common. True, but I'm trying to set up an easy to recognize (from a player point of view) monetary system that will help with them identifying with the game world. By using real world prices, the don't have to say, hey John, is that a good price for a meal, and the reverse is true, I don't have to say, hey, the amount he wants to hire you for is really good. Quote Skunk - 285/420 BRP book You wanna be alright you gotta walk tall Long Beach Dub Allstars & Black Eyed Peas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogspawner Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 ...I've been using real world prices, but converting them to the monetary system I use. Where a silver coin, the Guild, is worth $1.00 U.S. Would it help if the silver coins were perhaps named after the historic guild-master who invented them, Tollar? Quote Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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