lunar empire Questions on the cult of the penitent

[radmonger]

It has a common problem with RQ:G that what is written doesn't prevent it being played, but neither does it explain _how_.

Imagine if there was a section in the default cult template, after 'cult in the world', called 'playing a character in the cult'. Such a seciton would almost always have something interesting and useful to say, even if it was only a Crimson Bat style 'don't do this'.

 

 

 

Edited July 25 by radmonger

[davecake]

On 7/24/2024 at 4:58 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Most of the cults have a red box "Initiates of XXX" listing starting skill bonuses for a PC initiate.  I don't see any that include the Illumination skill. 

No. But your GM can put pretty much whatever they like into family history, and if you say ‘this will make my character more playable and fun’ most will oblige. Or use your discretionary skill points on it. 

 

On 7/24/2024 at 4:58 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I agree that there could be some exposure to Illumination during character history.  However, it does not seem that the authorities do anything extra special to teach it to Danfive Xaron as opposed to other cults.

They don’t do much. But they do sponsor institutions (such as the sisterhood of New Consciousness ) that will provide some exposure to Illumination to pretty much all citizens of the Empire, and particularly members of Lunar Cults - including DX. The most important rules consequence is it is reasonable to say the skill is not at 0% as it is for most Orlanthi. 

 

On 7/24/2024 at 10:33 AM, Akhôrahil said:

Lunars would probably say something along the lines of ”it’s about spiritual liberation”.

Indeed. And sometimes it takes the form of a better next life, or escaping the wheel of rebirth. 

[davecake]

On 7/24/2024 at 1:00 PM, Aurelius said:

IMG the xaronites forbid regrowing bits sacrificed in self-mortification rites and cult punishments,

Indeed.  But like all rules, it can be overridden by the orders of your superiors, and Illuminates are not bound by cult restrictions. So it’s rare that penitents regrow amputations due to punishment, but not unknown. Of course, the truly repentant may prefer to keep the marks of their penitence. 

[davecake]

On 7/25/2024 at 7:07 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

However, as it is presented, I remain deeply skeptical that it is a viable cult for a PC.  Nor is Runequest a good game system for exploring ascetic mysticism, despite the inclusion of Runes and Passions.  I'm not sure if any game system is.

The source material indicates that mystics often use magic known as austerities, so such suffering has a magical point to it. I’ve discussed it in the East Isles material I’ve worked on in the JC. It would work nicely. I think Gifts and Geases are essentially the divine cult adoption of ascetic mysticism. 

But it’s important to recognise that the DX cult is a state institution as much as a real mystic practice. Yes, the mystic path is real, but the cult recognises that many of its members join to save their life, and that mystic insight can’t truly be taught to those unready for it (and the road to true penitence can be long and painful for the truly worst among us). It offers spiritual liberation, but in the knowledge that many penitents will never get there (but may at least commit no more crimes, and at least some measure of real repentance). 

[Aurelius]

On 7/24/2024 at 6:58 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Sure.  Why would they hire you?  Are you good at Sense Assassin, Scan or Listen?  Handy with weapons?  Can you treat poison or cast Heal Body?  As a Danfiver, not particularly.  You don't even officially have Streetwise or other "I have contacts with snitches" skills.  (You should put this into your character background somewhere...)

I don't think you'd get hired, as a xaronite, but assigned by your overseer. You are already giving your life to the cult, so you are not in a position where you can take job contracts -- it's just that you serve your life sentence as a bodyguard or a galley slave or a salt miner or a spy or a cop or in a chain gang. 

Just like in the US army, you are inside the System, and the System will try to figure out how to get most value out of your low-paid labour. 

After you've served some years of necessary punishment and bootcamps to become someone who can start paying back to the society. The duration of the initial period would depend on your crime and background and personal growth, maybe a year or two for a thief, and a few years for a murderer eager to see the light.

[radmonger]

Another things that is missing from the way cults are written up is a link between the cult and occupation system.

For DX, the available occupations would be:

- labourer (from Nochet player's guide): default on cult entry

- warrior: after a few years, once trusted. Mostly serve as bodyguards or lackeys for a Lunar noble. DX penal battalions also exist, as expendable troops.

- priest: after meeting stated Rune Lord requirements. These run the cult.

Of these, only the warrior option is likely to be suitable for a PC in a typical campaign. They will simply require a PC or NPC they are sworn to obey, and a bunch of behavioral rules like 'never steal, seduce, marry or murder'. As is the Lunar Way, these are not magically enforced, but rely on the individuals free will. Choosing wrongly is, of course, punished harshly.

A typical PC would be a couple of years older than the default, perhaps 25, with an initial background as a bandit, a couple of years as a labourer, and current occupation warrior. Any remnants of the skills of their former life would be reflected in the free choice stage of character generation.

Taking the generous interpretation of the 7M association[1], Rune spells available are:

Mindblast, Madness, Reflection, Summon/Dismiss Lune, Regrow Limb, Resist Pain, Silver Track, Chaos Gift, Agony, Styx's Shore and Hunter-prey Link

Which seems perfectly playable for a single PC; it is not one of the cults that can support multiple mechanically-different PCs.

[1] without this, DX is indeed pretty unplayable, with only 6 spells, several of which are extremely niche. So if you do have a DX PC, it would be very unwise to do so. In particular, without Regrow Limb, it is hard to see how any PC would come out of the initial off-screen punitive regime intact.

 

 

 

[Eff]

On 7/25/2024 at 2:07 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Danfive is an important cult for Gloranthan and Lunar game background.

However, as it is presented, I remain deeply skeptical that it is a viable cult for a PC.  Nor is Runequest a good game system for exploring ascetic mysticism, despite the inclusion of Runes and Passions.  I'm not sure if any game system is.

I think I agree with you. Playing a DX (as-currently-constituted) is like playing someone on a constantly monitored parole, which is certainly a viable character to play in the abstract but doesn't synchronize well with the default assumptions of play at work for Runequests. Now, playing an ex-con trying to "go bent" (as the Lunars might put it) is a lot more synchronizable with those assumptions, but as things stand you never leave the cult without becoming enlightened, so DX as a background option is also problematic for play. 

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, Eff said:

I think I agree with you. Playing a DX (as-currently-constituted) is like playing someone on a constantly monitored parole, which is certainly a viable character to play in the abstract but doesn't synchronize well with the default assumptions of play at work for Runequests. Now, playing an ex-con trying to "go bent" (as the Lunars might put it) is a lot more synchronizable with those assumptions, but as things stand you never leave the cult without becoming enlightened, so DX as a background option is also problematic for play. 

How so?  That is   how is enlightenment more problematic for DX than for other Lunar cults?  Reaching the top is eligibility for the Red Goddess cult and therefore enlightenment on the way.  If you decide to play a Lunar that's your goal. it's a feature not a bug.    

Edited July 29 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[Eff]

29 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

How so?  That is   how is enlightenment more problematic for DX than for other Lunar cults?  Reaching the top is eligibility for the Red Goddess cult and therefore enlightenment on the way.  If you decide to play a Lunar that's your goal. it's a feature not a bug.    

Playing a character who begins play enlightened, necessary to be a former Danfive Xaron who served their sentence, is well out of scope with the starting assumptions of play for RQG.

[jajagappa]

24 minutes ago, Eff said:

Playing a character who begins play enlightened, necessary to be a former Danfive Xaron who served their sentence, is well out of scope with the starting assumptions of play for RQG.

But it's a perfectly valid NPC who can serve as boss/leader for whatever group of PC's exist.

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, Eff said:

Playing a character who begins play enlightened, necessary to be a former Danfive Xaron who served their sentence, is well out of scope with the starting assumptions of play for RQG.

Agreed. hence why you would play a current member of the cult, not a former one. After all, most cults are even more difficult to leave. 

[Squaredeal Sten]

I may have gotten a different impression from reading the Danfive Xaron chapter than you did  reading the same material.

I don't see anything that says the DX initiate must pursue Illumination. Nor that he will eventually leave DX when Illuminated.  

I have the impression that after a term of rigorous imprisonment, the DX initiate can be sent out to the world ( though still supervised)  in any of several roles.:

*Prison guard including labor camp guard. 

*police (secret or not secret),

*military punishment battalions  - as forlorne hope as mentioned on page 47. or long range patrols or expendable raiding parties. 

If he rises to Rune status = Overseer. more of the same.  Plus overseeing the labor of those new DX members who may labor as loggers or in mines.

This cult would seem to require some different character history generation, or perhaps early in the campaign the characters are captured and sentenced for banditry, then invited to join DX or die by crucifixion   But I don't see a requirement that a DX player character must start  illuminated.

Edited July 29 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[Eff]

9 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I may have gotten a different impression from reading the Danfive Xaron chapter than you did ster reading the same material.

I don't see anything that says the DX initiate must pursue Illumination. Nor that he will eventually leave DX when Illuminated.  

I have the impression that after a term of rigorous imprisonment, the DX initiate can be sent out to the world ( though still supervised)  in any of several roles.:

*Prison guard including labor camp guard. 

*police (secret or not secret),

*military punishment battalions  - as forlorne hope as mentioned on page 47. or long range patrols or expendable raiding parties. 

If he rises to Rune status = Overseer. more of the same.  Plus overseeing the labor of those new DX members who may labor as loggers or in mines.

This cult would seem to require some different character history generation, or perhaps early in the campaign the characters are captured and sentenced for banditry, then invited to join DX or die by crucifixion   But I don't see a requirement that a DX player character must start  illuminated.

So, I was replying to a specific person, @Rodney Dangerduck's post and making an analogy where being in Danfive Xaron is equivalent to being in prison, and noted that being an ex-con, by analogy, would mean being a former member of Danfive Xaron. Which has no real exits except by transferring to Red Goddess via Illumination. Thus, starting as an illuminate would seem to be necessary for starting as an ex-con trying to restart their life on the outside, if you were trying to use Danfive Xaron in that way.

[Malin]

One interesting thing I've seen in many discussions (the unplayable 90% time shaman, unredeemable Chalala Arroy etc) as well as this one is that so many people seem to look at a wording and immediately read that in the most stringent possible way when the actual text actually provides a lot more leeway? It is almost as if anything that's more than slightly restrictive on the player character immediately makes it impossible. I wonder if that's partly because many are still used to making "independent adventurers" who are supposed to work in any group, no matter the campaign or the other players.

I actually almost had a Danfive Xaron initiate in one of the RQ campaigns I am gamemastering. Everyone was playing characters who, for whatever reason, had been spending a couple of seasons in a Lunar jail and one of them played a Lunar deserter who had been courted (not nicely) by the DX cult for a while. In the end, he said no, and currently is not an initiate of anything (laymember Yanafal Tarnils), but it would have been a really interesting opportunity.

I do agree that to play a DX initiate, there has to be room in the campaign to explore those themes, but the same goes for many other cults. It's not fun to play a shaman if there's never any spirit stuff, or Babeester Gor or Chalana Arroy if you don't have all those moral quandaries that come with that role. Apart from the "looking at the opposite sex" one at the start, everything else seems manageable. And presumably, you've been an initiate for a few years with most cults...

Edited July 30 by Malin

[davecake]

18 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I don't see anything that says the DX initiate must pursue Illumination. Nor that he will eventually leave DX when Illuminated. 

No. Most members of the cult are happy with not being put to death, or horribly tortured, or put to death after horrible torture, for their crimes. We are discussing, however, PC members of the cult, who are going to be exceptional, as they are going to be among the small minority of the cult that gets involved in adventures, and hopefully have interesting stories, so how do we make that practical in play.

Of course in Lunar theology the cult is justified by its members being lead to the spiritual liberation of the goddess. But you can lead an outlaw to the water of spiritual wisdom, you can't make them drink. 

18 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

But I don't see a requirement that a DX player character must start  illuminated.

There is no such requirement. It is one way to facilitate only putting such restrictions on a DX PC as are compatible with interesting play. There are others. 

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Malin said:

I wonder if that's partly because many are still used to making "independent adventurers" who are supposed to work in any group, no matter the campaign or the other players

I do think this is a big part of it. And while that may work in a rough-and-tumble Pavis/Big Rubble setting, it doesn't make much sense culturally. 

Look at the Yanafal initiate - they must be part of a regiment which could be as restrictive as any DX punishment legion. 

[Eff]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I do think this is a big part of it. And while that may work in a rough-and-tumble Pavis/Big Rubble setting, it doesn't make much sense culturally. 

Look at the Yanafal initiate - they must be part of a regiment which could be as restrictive as any DX punishment legion. 

"Could" is significantly different from "is", though. Regiments are left to the play group to define and develop, so if they make one that is as restrictive as Danfive Xaron, then that's a decision that's been made as part of preparing for play, and we can assume that they're not going to make such characters run through the Rainbow Mounds. Whereas Danfive Xaron is already defined in this highly restrictive way, which limits the potential scope of play without rewriting the cult in some fashion. And especially given the expressed ideal way of playing RQG, with runespells a-flying, Danfive Xaron is simply a poor fit. Which is fine. It's strange to have all the condemned prisoners be 21 years old and have been sentenced to life terms at the age of 18.

[Ian Absentia]

6 hours ago, davecake said:

It is one way to facilitate only putting such restrictions on a DX PC as are compatible with interesting play. There are others. 

Such as a Gloranthan Dirty Dozen.  That might be a big request from a whole player group to all be D5X, but I've managed similar groups.  Depending on the adventures, it could be a lot of fun.

2 hours ago, Eff said:

And especially given the expressed ideal way of playing RQG, with runespells a-flying, Danfive Xaron is simply a poor fit. Which is fine. It's strange to have all the condemned prisoners be 21 years old and have been sentenced to life terms at the age of 18.

This neatly encapsulates why I'm not enamored with the family history approach to character creation.  But there's always the boxed guidance on RQG p.29 and p.81.

!i!

[mfbrandi]

10 hours ago, Malin said:

Apart from the “looking at the opposite sex” one at the start, everything else seems manageable.

Agreed that the others seem doable, but isn’t that the simplest of the lot?

• Non-neutered cultists are forbidden from even looking at non-cultists of other genders — or lustfully at members of their own.

Let us just hope the Lunar surgeons have magical infection control.

Edited July 30 by mfbrandi
trimmed — 2nd half repeated others’ comments

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Eff said:

"Could" is significantly different from "is", though. Regiments are left to the play group to define and develop, so if they make one that is as restrictive as Danfive Xaron, then that's a decision that's been made as part of preparing for play, and we can assume that they're not going to make such characters run through the Rainbow Mounds. Whereas Danfive Xaron is already defined in this highly restrictive way, which limits the potential scope of play

We've always known that DX was going to be a very restrictive cult though since it was first referenced in Cults of Prax. Is it more useful for the GM as a very specific type of NPC's? Yes. But I like the "Dirty Dozen" type of option. Whether that's sustainable beyond a few sessions, I don't know, but the structure of the cult fits with what I expected.

[mfbrandi]

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

But I like the “Dirty Dozen” type of option.

Made all the more fun because they will be a very Clean Commando: no sexual shenanigans, no stealing, no violence (unless …), and no lying. For everyone who ever hated Orlanth Adventurous, its opposite.

[metcalph]

17 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Made all the more fun because they will be a very Clean Commando: no sexual shenanigans, no stealing, no violence (unless …), and no lying. For everyone who ever hated Orlanth Adventurous, its opposite.

Danfive Xaroni can steal - they just have to be ordered to do so (like "collect the toll from that bridge there and as much as possible") and anything they steal ends up in then hands of their commander.  Likewise the same superiors aren't going to have much inhibitions about ordering others to be hurt (ie "enforce the curfew and beat up anybody breaking it").  It's only the violation of cult-norms for self-interest that becomes a problem in terms of discipline.

 

[WolfskinSon]

Considering there’s no named way for leaving the cult in game with out meriting a punishment from the cult. If I get the chance or time to run a lunar game I’ll homebrew up way DX leave a free of sin. Maybe doing some great deed for empire. If they live there missing parts are restored and if they wish scars fully healed. If they die they’re post humorously freed. Both involve the DX chains (if they can be recovered) being broken by a priestess of the red goddess. 
 

Also Aside from Beat Pot whose thought to be Danfives reincarnation do we have any named members? 
 

I 

[WolfskinSon]

On 7/24/2024 at 4:55 PM, mfbrandi said:

He pops that third eye when he realises he is the Chaos he opposes? I don’t know. The key thing for present purposes is that DX is or stands for Orlanth — an insight I can claim no credit for. DX cultists are not really being punished for their own sins but for the Big O’s. Until Orlanth is forgiven by the RG, the Lunars will make the DXers pay for his sins. I didn’t say it was fair, but as Her pique is being taken out on the self-loathing dregs of society (who are all out of choices), who is going to complain? Perhaps scourging DX cultists generates mana for the war on Orlanth. By the Gbaji principle — each of us is her own worst enemy — the whole thing is likely self-defeating. The narcissism of no difference at all. 😉

I never got the comparison between DX and Orlanth. Orlanth willingly went on the lightbringers quest, Danfive was captured by Yanafal to take part of the ritual. Orlanth willingly endures the horrors hell to reconcile with Yelm. 

[jajagappa]

39 minutes ago, WolfskinSon said:

I never got the comparison between DX and Orlanth.

From a Pelorian point of view, both are Rebel Bandits. Air to the Pelorians is another form of Disorder, and both are anathema to the proper order of the world.

Orlanth is the bandit still unchained and unbound.

DX is the bandit now chained, bound, and serving the proper order of the world.