Weapons Tables - Specific Feedback Request

[Jason D]

This is cross-posted (and slightly clarified) from another thread, but the momentum of discussion there has made it already unlikely to achieve my specific goals.

There have been a mix of responses about the weapons tables, particularly those relating to modern firearms.

So I'm asking for useful feedback, in a format as specific as possible.

Useful feedback: "I think the sniper rifle needs to have a higher minimum STR score... perhaps around 12. You might then include in the description of a bipod that it lowers the STR requirement by 5."

Useless feedback: "Dump the whole table as a failure."

______________________

Assume these requirements:

a) No significant additions to the list of weapons provided (other than the missing plasma pistol and dagger)

No alternate or variant systems (ammo types, etc.)

c) Keeping things generic - no stats for individual calibers, models, etc. The rules aren't just reflecting "right here, right now" weapons, but those from as much as 125 years plus or minus.

d) Assume that the rules "work" as is (range, etc.) and changes should be working within the rules rather than alternatives or extensions

e) There must be a strong level of compatibility with Call of Cthulhu

What specific changes would you make to the weapons stats to have them better reflect a balanced and playable system? For example, by this I mean accepting that you can only fire a heavy revolver once per combat round (12 seconds), etc., just as with the .45 revolver in Call of Cthulhu.

This is your chance.

In most cases, the weapons stats were drawn from a wide range of existing BRP products, averaged or balanced to achieve the aforementioned goals. Some numbers were admittedly devised from whole cloth, though research did go into the process.

I'm not really interested in arguments or criticisms or a lengthy back and forth on the various merits of suggested house rules or why exactly I suck as a designer.

Note also that a great many footnotes disappeared from the tables I turned in and the layout of the manuscript. I'm working on getting those back where they're required. But for now, assume they don't exist and make suggestions as appropriate.

I'm trying to get the edits to BRP wrapped up this weekend (end of day Monday, January 28th at the latest) so I can have it done and in the pipeline for Chaosium.

[Atgxtg]

Jason, is this better?

Specific Examples:

1) Submachinegun

Should do 1D8 damage (same as a medium pistol) since the vast majority of submachineguns fire the same ammo as medium pistols.

2) Sniper Rifle

Should do 2d6+4 damage, like a bolt action rifle, since most sniper rifles fire the same bullets as bolt action rifles. The 2d10+4 would be the top end “heavy” sniper rifle. STR min should be upped a bit, so that it about the same as a bolt action rifle.

3) Battle Rifle

Should be added. It is a heavier, scaled up version of the assault rifle, and fires the same ammo as the bolt action rifle for bolt action damage and slightly less range (say 100m vs. 110) and say 1 point more STR min.

4) Sporting Rifle

Should probably be called a light rifle. Since most sporting rifles are bolt-action rifles the terms overlap and cause confusion.

5) Machinegun Turret

Should pobably be called a heavy machinegun. Reason being than many machgun gun turrets actually mount medium machineguns (the BRP machinegun).

Damage should probably be scaled down a bit, say 2d10+5 or 4d6+1. 4d6+4 doesn't match up with the damages in CoC, and lets the weapon penetrate modern tanks.

6) Sporting Shotgun

Another confusing term, as most shotguns are sporting weapons. There are a handful of combat and assault shotguns, but 98%+ are sporting weapons. A term like pump action shotgun would be better. STR min should be slightly lower than a double barreled shotgun.

7) Automatic Shotgun

Should be clarified if this is actually a automatic (i.e. burst fire capable) shotgun or an autoloading (semi-automatic) shotgun. STR min should be a little lower than the double barreled for a semi auto weapon, and a little higher for a fully automatic shotgun.

[Trifletraxor]

What specific changes would you make to the weapons stats to have them better reflect a balanced and playable system? For example, by this I mean accepting that you can only fire a heavy revolver once per combat round (12 seconds), etc., just as with the .45 revolver in Call of Cthulhu.

I haven't layd my eyes on the book yet, but I really liked to hear that handguns doing a lot of damage have a lower rate of fire. I don't know if it's realistic or not, but it's very good for playability, gives you more options when chosing a gun.

SGL.

[Jason D]

Jason, is this better?

Exactly what I was looking for.

Thank you.

[Atgxtg]

I haven't layd my eyes on the book yet, but I really liked to hear that handguns doing a lot of damage have a lower rate of fire. I don't know if it's realistic or not, but it's very good for playability, gives you more options when chosing a gun.

SGL.

It is semi-realistic. Handguns that do more damage, are heavier and fire a more powerful cartridge with more recoil, and so tend to be a little slower, since it takes a little longer to bring them back on target after they "kick".

A skilled shooter could probably get 3 or 4 shots off "in a round" with one, but then you could probably empty the clip on most lighter pistols in the same amount of time.

Under combat conditions you'd probably wound hit as often at that rate, either. A lot of ammo is fired just to keep the other guy from taking his time and taking a good shot.

[SDLeary]

Jason, is this better?

Specific Examples:

1) Submachinegun

Should do 1D8 damage (same as a medium pistol) since the vast majority of submachineguns fire the same ammo as medium pistols.

2) Sniper Rifle

Should do 2d6+4 damage, like a bolt action rifle, since most sniper rifles fire the same bullets as bolt action rifles. The 2d10+4 would be the top end “heavy” sniper rifle. STR min should be upped a bit, so that it about the same as a bolt action rifle.

3) Battle Rifle

Should be added. It is a heavier, scaled up version of the assault rifle, and fires the same ammo as the bolt action rifle for bolt action damage and slightly less range (say 100m vs. 110) and say 1 point more STR min.

4) Sporting Rifle

Should probably be called a light rifle. Since most sporting rifles are bolt-action rifles the terms overlap and cause confusion.

5) Machinegun Turret

Should pobably be called a heavy machinegun. Reason being than many machgun gun turrets actually mount medium machineguns (the BRP machinegun).

Damage should probably be scaled down a bit, say 2d10+5 or 4d6+1. 4d6+4 doesn't match up with the damages in CoC, and lets the weapon penetrate modern tanks.

6) Sporting Shotgun

Another confusing term, as most shotguns are sporting weapons. There are a handful of combat and assault shotguns, but 98%+ are sporting weapons. A term like pump action shotgun would be better. STR min should be slightly lower than a double barreled shotgun.

7) Automatic Shotgun

Should be clarified if this is actually a automatic (i.e. burst fire capable) shotgun or an autoloading (semi-automatic) shotgun. STR min should be a little lower than the double barreled for a semi auto weapon, and a little higher for a fully automatic shotgun.

Woo! Spot on!

SDLeary

[Joseph Paul]

Does the .22 pistol do 1D6 in this and get to fire 3 times a round? If so drop damage to 1d4 or 1d3 or even 1d2. We found that .22s rule when you can pump 3d6 into your target and the .45 can only do 1d10+2 per round.

And yes that is the sort of "crunchiness" that I think is missing - getting the simulationist aspects right.

[Zane]

Jason, is this better?

Specific Examples:

1) Submachinegun

Should do 1D8 damage (same as a medium pistol) since the vast majority of submachineguns fire the same ammo as medium pistols.

6) Sporting Shotgun

Another confusing term, as most shotguns are sporting weapons. There are a handful of combat and assault shotguns, but 98%+ are sporting weapons. A term like pump action shotgun would be better. STR min should be slightly lower than a double barreled shotgun.

7) Automatic Shotgun

Should be clarified if this is actually a automatic (i.e. burst fire capable) shotgun or an autoloading (semi-automatic) shotgun. STR min should be a little lower than the double barreled for a semi auto weapon, and a little higher for a fully automatic shotgun.

Except for #1, I like the suggestions. For #1, it really should remain 1D10. The standard submachine gun is 9mm, right? According to existing source material that is 1D10.

On #6 pump would definitely make better sense in this description.

For #7 Semi-Automatic makes sense. Just how many shotguns are automatic? I've heard of the Atchison Assault Shotgun, I've also read that it wouldn't work with standard shotgun shells when using the 20-round drum and automatic fire. You instead would have to use special metal shells, to prevent the heat of automatic fire from melting the plastic casing.

[Atgxtg]

Except for #1, I like the suggestions. For #1, it really should remain 1D10. The standard submachine gun is 9mm, right? According to existing source material that is 1D10.

Well, I'm going with the assumption that the medium pistol in BRP that does 1D8 is a 9mm, since a 9mm is a medium pistol. As would be a .45. If the 9mm does 1D10 in BRP (and I am only referring to BRP not the CoC 5th edition damages) then the SMG should do that for damage. SO basically I think the SMG should do about the same damage as a medium pistol.

For #7 Semi-Automatic makes sense. Just how many shotguns are automatic? I've heard of the Atchison Assault Shotgun, I've also read that it wouldn't work with standard shotgun shells when using the 20-round drum and automatic fire. You instead would have to use special metal shells, to prevent the heat of automatic fire from melting the plastic casing.

Yeah, the semi-makes the most sense. There are a few automatic shotguns, but they are a lot rarer. THere is also a trick tyou can pull with some shotgguns where you can get a high rate of fire. I think there are some combat pump shotguns where if you hold down the trigger you can work the slide and keep firing shells.

The Atichisson, the good ol'd room broom. Not that anyone really wants to fire the thing on full auto anyway. It is really a 3-5 round burst weapon. Of course that means something like fifty "00 buck" pellets!:eek: You could empty the magazine, but frankly if a 4 round burst doesn't drop what you are shooting at, the whole magazine won't either. The metallic cartridges probably are less likely to jam too. Not really a problem.

The thing would be a beast in BRP. Imagine a bust of 20 rounds at 4D6 each? Even those COC beasties that take minimum damage from firearms might be in trouble.

[Kloster]

...

Thee Atichisson, the good ol'd room broom. Not that anyone really wants to fire the thing on full auto anyway. It is really a 3-5 round burst weapon. Of course that means something like fifty "00 buck" pellets!:eek: You could empty the magazine, but frankly if a 4 round burst doesn't drop what you are shooting at, the whole magazine won't either. The metallic cartridges probably are less likely to jam too. Not really a problem.

The thing would be a beast in BRP. Imagine a bust of 20 rounds at 4D6 each? Even those COC beasties that take minimum damage from firearms might be in trouble.

The metallic cartridge are because of the heat generated: Plastic casing melt in the chamber. The choice is the same with the HK CAWS and the AIW CAWS. They all fires longer than usual cartridge to avoid loading them in a 'standard' shotgun. The AIW fires flechettes ammo for increased range. The only full auto shotgun that fires standard ammo is the Pancor Jackhammer (because of it's ceramic cassettes).

In addition, all this weapons have a 10 shots mag, and as far as I know, are only capable of short (3shots) bursts.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Atgxtg]

In addition, all this weapons have a 10 shots mag, and as far as I know, are only capable of short (3shots) bursts.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

All, except the Atchisson. I can fire from a 20 round drum and empty it within 4 seconds. Even hit stuff too (not tough when you got a few hundred pellets flying around).

[Jason D]

Let's stay on topic and not get into digressions about particular weapons.

That's exactly what I specified in point #c.

Thanks!

[SDLeary]

Jason,

I don't necessarily agree (recoil, target re-acquisition, etc.), but I can see the point of some about the speed with which a pistol can be fired. Perhaps bringing all three semi-auto pistols (Light, Medium, Heavy) to a ROF/Attacks of 2 makes sense. Mechanisms are similar enough.

SDLeary

[Jason D]

:eek::eek::eek: Wait a minute! Unless you have a militaristic genre where PCs are issued specific weapons how are you going to plausibly restrict the choices? It seems like a less than ideal way to cope with a set of problematic rules.

Please keep this thread on topic.

[Trifletraxor]

Please keep this thread on topic.

Off-topic posts are been moved to the http://basicroleplaying.com/forum/basic-roleplaying/377-more-guns-stuff.html thread.

SGL.

[jbuckmaster]

Not specifically related to weapons themselves, but the charts and the keys to them:

The Missile weapons rules give notes for long range and such and tell you to reference the tables which give you a single range... and without a measurement that's easy to find. So the Sniper rifle has a "range" of 250. I can infer yards, but I have to go to the Extending Range Spot rule to find out what the info on shooting farther than 250 units is, but the wording is not consistent there with the missile weapon modifiers in the missile weapons rules. The chart or the key for the charts should explain these so we don't need to flip through different sections with different wordings. Ideally, listing short/medium/long on all weapons would be useful, but i understand there may not be room for that.

Additionally, the Rate of Fire section on weapons lists "Burst" while the spot rule is "Autofire." (IIRC, it might be Automatic Fire. My book is elsewhere). This should be noted in the key as well, and maybe switch "Burst" to "Auto."

-John

[Atgxtg]

Not specifically related to weapons themselves, but the charts and the keys to them:

The Missile weapons rules give notes for long range and such and tell you to reference the tables which give you a single range... and without a measurement that's easy to find. So the Sniper rifle has a "range" of 250. I can infer yards, but I have to go to the Extending Range Spot rule to find out what the info on shooting farther than 250 units is, but the wording is not consistent there with the missile weapon modifiers in the missile weapons rules. The chart or the key for the charts should explain these so we don't need to flip through different sections with different wordings. Ideally, listing short/medium/long on all weapons would be useful, but i understand there may not be room for that.

Additionally, the Rate of Fire section on weapons lists "Burst" while the spot rule is "Autofire." (IIRC, it might be Automatic Fire. My book is elsewhere). This should be noted in the key as well, and maybe switch "Burst" to "Auto."

-John

Apparently some of the footnotes and tables are missing from the "zero" edition.

I believe that range is handled the same way as in Call of Cthulhu. The listed range is the weapon's base range. For every increment of the base range you half your skill. So that 250 "unit" sniper rifle could shoot out to 500 units at half skill, 750 units at one-quarter skill and so on.

Units are probably meters, although for most purposes a GM could use yards or paces if they didn't want to go with the metric system. It's only a 10% difference or so, and is probably close enough for RPG purposes.

[jbuckmaster]

I'm quite aware of CoC and such, I just figured if it took me a while to find stuff, a new player would be exceedingly hard-pressed to find anything. Organization and presentation account for 90% of all rules questions. Something I picked up on when writing the Heavy Gear Rules.

-John

[Atgxtg]

I'm quite aware of CoC and such, I just figured if it took me a while to find stuff, a new player would be exceedingly hard-pressed to find anything. Organization and presentation account for 90% of all rules questions. Something I picked up on when writing the Heavy Gear Rules.

-John

Well, as has been mentioned before, several things are missing from the book. So the final product probably won't be so hard to follow.

[jbuckmaster]

I figured, but I hoped that would help. Anyway, let's let this go back to what the thread is for...

-John